Talk:The Holocaust/Sandbox/ArchiveHSB

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.


Contents


Disputed content

  • This section is for collecting and presenting the disputed content. The next section down will be for discussing each element. Please feel free to edit this section to correct any of these items. If new ones need to be added, please propose them in the Requested additional items.
  • Please no commentary or opinions in this section. If comments are placed here inadvertantly, I'll move them to the appropriate comments section for the relevant item.

Items

1. [1] Disputed diff has been broken down in the Disputed diff section.

2. Integrate article with Holocaust victims

3. Change:

There are many examples of Jewish resistance to the Holocaust, most notably the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of January 1943, when thousands of poorly armed Jewish fighters held the SS at bay for four weeks, and killed several hundred Germans before being crushed by overwhelmingly superior forces.
to
There are many examples of Jewish resistance to the Holocaust, most notably the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of January 1943, when the poorly armed Jewish fighters rose up against the final wave of deportations to the extermination camps, before being crushed by overwhelmingly superior forces.
Reason: The former is a myth. Most of the liqidation was the Jews hiding or escaping from Germans, which is what many did for years elsewhere (and they were not thousands). Any positional fighting ("holding at bay") ended in few days, not weeks. (You may be confused by "bunkers". "Bunkers" were hiding places.)

4. Thread on the significance of 'D-Day'.

Reason: Unimportant since this is not a general article on WWII.

5. Add information on the 'lack of bombing peformed on camps/railways'

6. Add content regarding the Allies lack of action to stop the Holocause. Lack of 'D-Day' action included.

Discussion

Item 1

  • <start Item 1 discussion here>

Item 2

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Item 3

  • <start Item 3 discussion here>


Item 4

  • <start Item 4 discussion here>


Item 5

  • <start Item 5 discussion here>


Item 6

  • <start Item 6 discussion here>


Disputed Diff

  • I have sifted through the entire diff and identified the significant items added or changed in that diff. If there are any that I missed, please indicate that in the Items to be added section.
  • Each change in the diff has been noted in the format:
  • "From this:" (original version)
  • "To this:" (proposed new version).
  • A short bulletpoint comment with an agree' or 'disagree", and a brief reason why to keep or drop the change. To clarify: "Agree" with the change" "Disagree with the change". – Dreadstar † 02:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Other groups

*From this: Other groups were persecuted and killed by the regime, including the Roma, Soviet POWs, disabled people, gay men, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholic Poles, and political prisoners

*To this: Other groups were persecuted and killed by the regime, including the Soviet POWs, political prisoners, Roman Catholic Poles, Roma people, disabled people, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses

Comments

  • Question Why were the Roman Catholic Poles and political prisoners links removed? – Dreadstar † 02:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Because you removed them (mystery solved!). --HanzoHattori 05:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Good catch! It was confusing because they were reordered and linked differently. I must have inadvertently deleted them when formatting. So the only issue here is the reordering - which I can't see anything wrong with that. Minor edit. – Dreadstar † 06:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Medical experiments

*From this:

Further information: Doctors' Trial, Josef Mengele, Nazi human experimentation, and Miklós Nyiszli
  • To this:
Main article: Nazi human experimentation

Comments

  • Question - Why were the Josef Mengele and Miklós Nyiszli sections removed? – Dreadstar † 02:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Wy were added? Just some people. Mengele wasn't even a chief doctor at Auschwitz (Eduard Wirths was) - he was one of hundreds in the camps, many of which experimented, and Nyiszli was his Jewish assistant. --HanzoHattori 07:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
  • There may have been a good reason they were added, I recognize both names as being significant and notable figures in this. This is also something that needs to be discussed on the talk page before changing. – Dreadstar † 07:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
No, the reason was: "let's add as many of the 'further reading' random links as possible" (I say: let's keep the number of random "further reading" links to 0). Said Wirths was really more notable, Mengele was just one of his subordinates (the one obsessed with twins, while for example his Auschwitz collegue Horst Schumann was into new sterilization techniques). And there were people above Wirths in the hierarchy, too. And so on. --HanzoHattori 08:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Jewish victims

  • From this:
Main articles: The Destruction of the European Jews, The War Against the Jews, and Consequences of German Nazism
  • To this:
Main articles: The Destruction of the European Jews and The War Against the Jews

Number of Soviet POWS

  • From this: Soviet POWs 2–3 million [9]
  • To this: 2–3.5 million [9]
  • Removed: Spanish POWs- |7,000–16,000[10]

Comments

  • Question: Why would the number of Soviet POWs be different if they are from the same source?
  • See the Soviet POW section, "high" (not really, are higher) is 3.5 by Daniel Goldhagen, with 3.3 by USHMM - 3.0 is pretty low by most estimates. --HanzoHattori 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Right, but from what I see, the number comes from a specific source. If two reliable sources disagree, then that needs to be noted and cited, not just changed to an arbitrary selection. I would suggest citing both sources and giving the range of difference. – Dreadstar † 07:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
And I see no problem. --HanzoHattori 08:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Question: Why was the Spanish POWs removed or moved?
  • I told already (geez!): this is jut weird, Spanish was neutral country (and actualy allied to Hitler). Do they mean ethnic-Spanish Soviet POWs or something? And if you count insignificant oddities like this, more killed were among (for example) the disarmed or taken prisoner Italians in 1943-45 (not to mention hundreds of thousands of captured resistance fighters). For example, 5,000 Italian POWs were killed in a very short time (few hours?) on Cephalonia. [2]--HanzoHattori 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Apologies, I wasn't following the dispute until I came across the edit war, and I haven't gone back through all the discussions. I don't know what is meant by the reference to Spanish POWs; this is something that needs to be discussed before changing it in the article. Right now we're discussing the changes you made to the article, so let's focus on that - but maybe all the numbers should be included somewhere. – Dreadstar † 07:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Also: mystery solved:[3] - Spanish communists who escaped to France where they were put into internment camps, then taken over by the Germans after the fall of France and deported as the communists (and as well-organized and supported by other communists took over Mauthausen from the common criminals). So much about "POWs". I don't see why they should be differed from the other politicals. --HanzoHattori 07:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • The source references the same "Spanish POWs" as did the section removed? The article refers to them as "Spanish political prisoners". – Dreadstar † 08:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, this is the source cited in the current article (and as I said again and again, Spain was neuutral in the WWII). --HanzoHattori 08:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Soviet POWs

  • From this: POWs were needed to work as slaves to help the German war effort; by 1943, half a million of them had been deployed as slave labor.[9] Nearly 5,000 Soviet POWs died every day in October 1941, according to the USHMM.[11]
  • To this: POWs were needed to work as slave laborers to help the German war effort;[9] some of the survivors were also recruited into the German military. Nearly 5,000 Soviet POWs died every day in October 1941, and it got only worse during the winter months of 1941, according to the Museum.[12]

Comments

  • And the controversional is what exactly? --HanzoHattori 07:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure there is a controversy on this edit. That's the problem with sweeping changes made in a single edit. – Dreadstar † 08:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Poles

*Added?:

Main article: Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles
I put ready my Totenkopfverbände units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. |Adolf Hitler in </nowiki>
The Nazi occupation of Poland (German military government of the General Government and four Reichsgau territories annexed by Germany) was one of the most brutal episodes of the war, resulting in 1.8-1.9 million non-Jewish deaths. Scholars disagree as to what proportion of these non-Jewish Polish civilian deaths during the Nazi conquest and occupation of Poland were part of the Holocaust, though there is no doubt of the eventual genocidal intentions of the Nazis towards the Poles.
Hundreds of thousands of Poles were sent to the concentration camps, while the Polish intelligentsia were the first targets of the Einsatzgruppen death squads (starting already in 1939).[13]

Comments

  • Coments on this subsection start here.

Roma

*From this: Bauer argues that this adjustment reflected Nazi ideology that the Roma, originally an Aryan population, had been "spoiled" by non-Romani blood.[14]

*To this: Bauer argues that this adjustment reflected Nazi ideology that the Roma, originally an "Aryan race", had been "spoiled" by non-Romani blood.[14]

Comments

  • Coments on this subsection start here.
  • Did you even click both links? At all, it would be rather Indo-Aryans, but Nazis were all about the "Aryan race" bullshit. Artifactial problems, all of this. You waste a lot of time, seriously. --HanzoHattori 07:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Yes I clicked both links. I'm not disputing this, I'm just presenting it as a change made in the diff - essentially from "Arian population" to "Aryan race" - there may be a significant difference between the two. I'm doing this in an attempt to assist you in getting your changes discussed and possibly put into the article. The edit war was not working and I don't believe you would have been successful if you stayed on the same path. Trying my best, dude. – Dreadstar † 07:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Disabled and mentally ill

*From this:

Main articles: Nazi eugenics, Aktion T4, Erbkrank, Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring, Rhineland Bastard, and Schloss Hartheim
  • To this:
Main articles: Nazi eugenics and Aktion T4
  • From this:
Aktion T4 was a program established in 1939 to maintain the genetic purity of the German population by killing or sterilizing German and Austrian citizens who were disabled or suffering from mental illness.[15]
  • Appended to the end of the above:
In October 1939 the program was expanded to include the Polish territories annexed by Germany.
  • From this:
The program was named after Tiergartenstraße 4, the address of a villa in the Berlin borough of Tiergarten, the headquarters of the Gemeinnützige Stiftung für Heil und Anstaltspflege (General Foundation for Welfare and Institutional Care),[16] led by Philipp Bouhler, head of Hitler’s private chancellery (Kanzlei des Führer der NSDAP) and Karl Brandt, Hitler’s personal physician.
  • Appended to the end of the above:
Brandt was tried in December 1946 at Nuremberg, along with 22 others, in a case known as United States of America v. Karl Brandt et al., also known as the Doctors' Trial. He was hanged at Landsberg Prison on June 2, 1948.

Comments

  • Coments on this subsection start here.

Gay men

  • From this:
Main articles: Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, Pink triangle, and History of homosexual people in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust
  • To this:
Main article: History of homosexual people in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust
  • From this: In 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion." Homosexuality was declared contrary to "wholesome popular sentiment,"[17] and gay men were regarded as "defilers of German blood." The Gestapo raided gay bars, tracked individuals using the address books of those they arrested, used the subscription lists of gay magazines to find others, and encouraged people to report suspected homosexual behavior and to scrutinize the behavior of their neighbors.[17][18]
  • Appended to the end of the above: Tens of thousands Germans were convicted between 1933 and 1944 and sent to camps for "rehabilitation," where they were identified by yellow armbands[19] and later pink triangles worn on the left side of the jacket and the right pant leg, which singled them out for sexual abuse.[18] Hundreds were castrated by court order.[20] They were humiliated, tortured, used in [hormone]] experiments conducted by SS doctors, and killed by the guards and other inmates. The allegation of homosexuality was also used as a convenient way of dealing with Catholic priests.[17] Steakley writes that the full extent of gay suffering was slow to emerge after the war. Many victims kept their stories to themselves because homosexuality remained criminalized in postwar Germany and elsewhere in Europe.[18]

Comments

  • Actually I removed the odd stuff about clubs and magazines. You confuse the changes a lot. --HanzoHattori 07:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeed, I'm not surprised. There was a large amount of information to sort through. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?  :) – Dreadstar † 08:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses

  • Removed:
Main articles: Freemasonry under Totalitarian Regimes#Nazi Germany and Occupied Europe, Nacht und Nebel, and Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses

Comments

  • Coments on this subsection start here.

Actually moved not removed. --HanzoHattori 07:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Increasing persecution and pogroms (1938–1942)

  • From this:
Main articles: Pogrom, Babi Yar, Dorohoi Pogrom, Iaşi pogrom, Jedwabne Massacre, Kristallnacht, Legionnaires' Rebellion and Bucharest Pogrom, History of Lviv#Lviv pogroms and the Holocaust, Ponary massacre, and Odessa massacre
  • To this:
Main article: Pogrom
  • From this: during the Second World War, some with Nazi encouragement, and some spontaneously. This included the Iaşi pogrom in Romania on June 30, 1941, in which as many 14,000 Jews were killed by Romanian residents and police, and the Jedwabne pogrom, in which between 380 and 1,600 Jews were killed by local Poles in July 1941
  • To this: During the war regular Axis forces murdered tens of thousands in the incidents such as the Odessa massacre. A number of deadly pogroms by local populations occurred during the war, some with Nazi encouragement, and some spontaneously. This included the Iaşi pogrom in Romania on June 30, 1941, in which as many 14,000 Jews were killed by Romanian residents and police, and the Jedwabne massacre, in which hundreds of Jews were killed by local Poles in July 1941.

Comments

  • Coments on this subsection start here.

Early measures in Poland

  • From this:
Main articles: Armia Krajowa, History of the Jews in Poland, History of Poland (1939–1945), Invasion of Poland (1939), Invasion of Poland, and Polish government in Exile
  • To this:
Main articles: History of Poland (1939–1945) and History of the Jews in Poland
  • From this:
  • To this:
Main article: Nazi concentration camps
  • From this:

Further information: Emanuel Ringelblum, Judenrat, Ghettos in occupied Europe 1939-1944, Oyneg Shabbos

  • To this::
Main article: Ghettos in occupied Europe 1939-1944

Comments

  • Coments on this subsection start here.

Wannsee Conference and the final solution (1942–1945)

  • From this:
IMAGES
  • Moved to ?:
Main articles: Wannsee Conference and Final Solution


Comments

  • ??? It's rather removal of flood-like stuff like the list of Wannese participants etc. Most of images are still in the article. (You cite a lot of these changes wrong... not that anyone but we two care, but hey.) --HanzoHattori 07:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Tell me about it..;) there were a whole heck of a lot of content changes in that little diff, copying and pasting it, then sorting it and formatting it to present here was a big job, so a few mistakes were bound to crop in! I'm glad you're here to help correct those mistakes! – Dreadstar † 07:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Added section:
Main article: Operation Reinhard
Operation Reinhard (Aktion Reinhard or Einsatz Reinhard in German) was the code name given to the Nazi plan to murder Polish Jews in the General Government, and marked the beginning of the most deadly phase of the Holocaust. During the operation, as many as two million people were murdered in the extermination camps Bełżec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Majdanek, almost all of them Jews.[21]

Comments

  • Coments on this subsection start here.

Jewish resistance

  • To this:
Main article: Jewish resistance during the Holocaust


Comments

  • and one not 2 pictures from the WG uprising
  • Sorry, i don't understand. – Dreadstar † 07:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

There are 2 pictures from the WGU currently, but I think only one is needed (and I changed the caption). --HanzoHattori 08:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Escapes, D-Day, publication of news of the death camps (April–June 1944)

'Removed: Image:1944 NormandyLST.jpg|right|thumb|240px|D-Day; Troops of the U.S. Army's First Division storm Omaha Beach, France, June 6, 1944 to begin the invasion of Europe. According to John K. Roth, former Director of Advanced Studies at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, "The Nazi grip that D-Day helped break included the Holocaust".[22]]]

and removed list of beaches and what-not, too. All of this unrelated Normandy stuff.

Other discussions

  • <start other discussions here>


Items to be added requests

  • Add'em here, and I'll put them in the list!



Comments about format of this sandbox

  • Add'em here, but please go easy on me...I'm giving this a try!! – Dreadstar † 01:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I see the heated discussion indeed. You know, maybe we'd do the other way: see my proposal (there's much more than this) and say what you don't agree. You know, in the name of "the consensus".
Also, the non-intervention by bombing is discussed in Auschwitz bombing debate. Other items of "Allies didn't care (yes, they knew)" are also discussed elsewhere, and the detailed D-Day inclusion to the "too-long" article is just simply plain stupid.
And to read about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, click. My edit is nothing controversional, just the old myth is still being widely propagated, like in this American comic book after the uprising I've seen some time ago. (The comic was well-intended, but completely separated from any reality.) --HanzoHattori 05:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
My apologies if I have somehow misunderstood the nature of the dispute and the source of the edit warring that was going on last week. I had assumed that you were the party interested in adding material to the article that other editors were contesting. (And not to leave them out..you also have supporters for the content you would like to add - but it appears that you are the primary driver.)
The diff you've presented contains a large number of changes, spread throughout the article. In addition to that, the size of the entire article makes it very difficult to load that diff and examine all the content you would like to see added. That's why I've proposed breaking it up into its component parts; it's difficult to do it the way you suggest.
As it stands now, you would need to have consensus for the changes you would like to see made. I'm trying to facilitate that for you. From what I see, others are having trouble tracking and separating out so many changes as well, and have asked that it be talked out on the talk page before you make the changes.
I need one side or the other to step up to the plate, bring all the edits here and discuss them. Then hopefully we can come to a consensus on what to add and what not to. HaanzoHattori, I respectfully suggest that we place the information you would like to see added here on this talk page - due to the simple fact that you are the adding editor.
What do you say, HH? I'll take the time tomorrow to go through all the edits you've made and put them here so they can be discussed. I'll do the work; you guys just need to present your views.
Sound good? – Dreadstar † 06:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I can discuss if someone disagrees. For me, all the changes are obvious AND I discussed them before. I don't got any answer (just the silly question of "What's with all the removal of material?", which I answered - "the material" being mostly the never-ending Balkan ethic conflict and the random interlink spam/flood), followed by repeated "no consenus" but yes, no discussion at all. So, do YOU have any problems with anything? --HanzoHattori 06:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
And again, the problem is no one is really discussing. SV is only good at reverting. [4] led to no discussion - consensus reached I guess, so what's the problem still? Same here, I don't see anyone opposing anything, of all the contributors. --HanzoHattori 06:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand your points, and I will do everything I can to see this matter move forward. Right now, I am unsure if everyone involved even knows about this sandbox, and the discussion here; so I have notified the all the editors involved in this dispute since July 19th, if I missed anyone, please let me know. I would like to give everyone at least 72 hours to respond here before taking any further actions. I apologize for not doing the notificatons sooner.
My main problem is the size of the page and the trouble editors are having examining the diffs and even reading the article. The content is something I need to see discussed here before I can make any judgements at all. I kindly ask for your patience in this matter, and my continued thanks for your contributions here.
Here is the list of editors I notified:
Please let me know if anyone else should be included. Thanks! – Dreadstar † 07:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
All users notified of diff scan update. – Dreadstar † 01:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Including Hanzo Hattori]. – Dreadstar † 01:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

You know there will be no real discussion. Right? --HanzoHattori 05:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I asked a couple of questions in the above. Let's give it some time, I just finished all that work... – Dreadstar † 06:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I also added dates to the all headers (there were in some before) and some other things you forgot here. Frankly, I see absolutely nothing controversional in any of these. Appearently no one else too (as excepted). --HanzoHattori 07:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, so: after how long time there will be "consensus" at least, then? --HanzoHattori 07:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

With the last comment from one of the disputing editors, there is no consensus. What I'd like to do is identify which of these changes are major and which are minor (e.g. a minor change is something line the link changes and reordering in the Other groups section. Those we can take and present on the talk page..then slowly add them one by one and see if anyone objects. The major ones we can take to the talk page and discuss there, and possibly go through the same process as with the minor ones. I don't recommend just reverting back to the orginal diff and trying to push through all of these changes in one big chunk - it's sure to get reverted that way, and then the edit war will continue, with the inevitable poor results that path always takes...I'd like to avoid that. – Dreadstar † 08:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

But actually the only "disputing editor" is SV, and he/she flatly refuses to participate. Crum (supported by SV) was the one who belived in the imprtance of the Normandy stuff for whatever reason, and you can see the dispute on this on the main page, with the importance of supposed of the battle of Normandy vastly voted off as "not directly connected" even without my participation (actually - I say not connected at all, besides both being parts of the WWII). --HanzoHattori 08:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you propose as a next step? – Dreadstar † 16:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
What now? I guess declare consensus archived (by walkover, as predicted). --HanzoHattori 13:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked what you would propose as next step, not to 'declare consensus'. I oppose reverting back to the diff and so does SlimVirgin. There is no consensus, do not start an edit war again. – Dreadstar † 16:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

New changes

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Holocaust&diff=148942466&oldid=148927853

I may discuss anything if needed. --HanzoHattori 15:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)