Talk:The Hague

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Contents 1 Official name 2 Donating photos 3 Centraal Station 4 "The Hague" vs. "Hague, The" 5 Thronespeech 6 What's an hague? 7 The Hague Tribunal? 8 european pattent office 9 according to its webpage, The Hague is not a city 10 Translating 'Stadsdeel' 11 "poorest in Western Europe" 12 Adding people 13 geography 14 Poor areas 15 Bombs on the Bezuidenhout 16 Missing sections 17 People in metropolitan area 18 Suburbs 19 Misc 20 Vandalism 21 Rewrite? 22 Non-official names 23 English Pronunciation 24 Capital of Netherlands 25 "The" in English-language place names 26 How the Hague became the residency

[edit] Official name

The problem is, that the official name of the city ís in fact Den Haag - 's-Gravenhage was thought up in the 17th century, because The Hague sounded too common. The name 's-Gravenhage was found in analogy with another city in The Netherlands: 's-Hertogenbosch (the capital of the Dutch province of Noord-Brabant) was (and still is) called Den Bosch ("The Woods", official name 's-Hertogenbosch means The Duke's Woods). Also for a lot of Dutch people it is not clear that The Hague's official name is Den Haag, but you can see it if you drive to the city by car; all signs say Den Haag, and also the official city signs say Den Haag, while every sign pointing to Den Bosch says 's-Hertogenbosch. (nl:Gebruiker:Arvey)

Your history of the names Den Haag and 's-Gravenhage is correct. The conclusion that Den Haag is the official name isn't. Cities (and other towns) in the Netherlands do not have any official status, and therefore they do not have official names. Municipalities are the lowest level of jurisdictions with an official status (except for stadsdelen), with names that are determined by the national government. The name for the municipality that The Hague is in, is 's-Gravenhage, since about 1810, when the municipalities were formed by the French.

For the city, both names are used, but Den Haag is preferred by most. For the municipality, only 's-Gravenhage is correct, even though many people use the other name. Including the municipality itself (see www.denhaag.nl). Eugene van der Pijll 13:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if I remember correctly (I can not find a relevant URL), the city council of The Hague renamed the city in 1987 officially to "Den Haag". This is why they use "Den Haag" now in official letters and no longer "'s Gravenhage". It is however a valid question whether or not the city can decide this themselves.

[edit] Donating photos

All the photos in my Flickr account are Creative Commons-licensed so feel free to use them on Wikipedia. I'm too lazy to add the photos myself, so I'm leaving it up to you guys. http://flickr.com/photos/kentwang/tags/thehague/

Thanks, I took one picture of the beach and put it on the page. Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] Centraal Station

Why is the Centraal Station called Centraal Stataion?,if it's near Wassenaar on the north? (If you go to Renbaan Duindigt,you see a sign that says Wassenaar.)

-Just politics. The Hague felt that having a central station would give the city some extra status, so in 1975 The Hague got its central station. If you can read Dutch, read http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centraal_station

[edit] "The Hague" vs. "Hague, The"

I have taken the liberty to move this page (and some others for the same reason).

Properly alphabetized, the word "The" is normally eliminated from the title (ex. "Royal Canadian Mounted Police"). In this case, however, it is put at the end of the title since the word "The" is formally recognized as part of the city's name. This is the convention followed in written dictionaries and encyclopedias.

I have read the above discussion regarding the Dutch name and recognize that the convention may differ in their language. However, I have looked this up in other dictionaries to confirm the English convention.

The provious page will obviously redirect to the new one.

Brent Woods

I have moved ot back to The Hague, as "Hague, The" simply is not correct. There is also no consensus on moving the page, so please discuss this first if you want to do this. User:Prasenberg

Wikipedia has a policy of using the definite article where it features as part of a name, (eg, The Guardian as opposed to the Irish Independent). The Hague is one such case and is correct. Hague is incorrect. It is bad enough making unilateral changes without making the wrong ones. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 23:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)}

Yes, Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name)) is to avoid the "The" if it's not really part of the name, but put it at the beginning if it is. The rationale for the latter part is simply that, in running text, you would not write "he was born in Hague, The"; the reason books use the notation is for alphabetical sorting - if you read "he was born in The Hague (qv)" you have to look under 'H' not 'T' because otherwise 'T' would have a whole subsection to itself. Arguably, the title of the article is still "The Hague", it is just sorted differently. Wikipedia doesn't have that problem: if the whole encyclopedia is ever printed, or where there are usable alphabetical table[s] of contents, ways around this will have to be found, but while the main form of navigation is in-text hyperlinks, there is no need for any special sorting tricks. - IMSoP 12:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

It's just that there is no such thing as a "Hague" over here (I live in the city). "The Hague" is simply a name. Obviously one would not say "He is born in Hague, The.", but also "He was born in Hague." would be meaningless. The name of the city is simply "The Hague". :) Anyway, it seems we all agree on the proper name of the page. Patrick Rasenberg

Precisely - the only meaningful title is the one we already have. and that is fully supported by existing policy, and by both my and Jtdirl's comments above - no need for "it's just that", it's just correct. ;) - IMSoP 17:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

OK. I won't try to fight the consensus, nor will I try to move it again. But the fact is that I had consulted with the Oxford Dictionary and the World Book Encyclopedia prior to my moving this page. "Hague, The" is how the title appears in a written encyclopedia. I can, however, agree that this is not a significant issue since we can keep "Hague, The" as a redirect page.

Cheers - Brent Woods

Your mistake in consulting other reference books on this matter is that they use "Hague, The" not because that is the "universally correct" title for "a written encyclopedia", but because it is the correct title according to their naming conventions. Wikipedia has its own naming conventions, as described and linked to above, which happen to be different - because Wikipedia is different from those publications, and is not a slave to tradition. Note that the redirect at "Hague, The" has exactly one article linking to it, and that's in a list of articles in another encyclopedia - because there is no situation where it is natural to link there, and our naming convention doesn't require you to; OTOH, it may be useful for visitors trying to guess our naming conventions and incorrectly expecting the "Hague, The" form, so it's no bad thing that it's there. - IMSoP 18:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Having read the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name), I now understand the conventions and I stand corrected. Brent Woods

Sorry to bring this up again, but I have another question on a similar note. The original reason that I questioned the convention was that I had browsed through the Special:Allpagespage and found "The Hague" listed under "T", not "H" (until I added the redirect page). Thus, if another article was to have an alphabetical list of cities in the Netherlands, where should "The Hague" appear on that list? I ask because this could cause some confusion since one would expect to look under "H". (One possible solution would be to list it as "Hague, The" but link to this page as is.) Brent Woods

Under "T", as "The Hague" is the name of the city. In Dutch it is usually under "D", as "Den Haag" is the Dutch name. Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] Thronespeech

I noticed a mistake in this page. The Knight's Hall is indeed still used for political events, but I think the writer intended to name the Thronespeech and not the opening of parliament (this is not the same). The most important event of the Dutch political year is on the third tuesday of september when it's Prinsjesdag'. The Queen will go to the Knights Hall and deliver the Thronespeech, which entails all the major plans of the government for the coming year. This is not the opening of parliament.

[edit] What's an hague?

What does "hague" mean? --Abdull 12:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

No offence, but try reading the article, where you will find the following:

"Later, the counts of Holland used The Hague as their administrative center. 'Des Graven Hage' literally means "The counts' hedge" or "The count's private enclosure"

IMSoP 20:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that answer leaves me as puzzled as before. I'd also like to know what "The Hague" means (yes, yes, I know, "the count's hedge"). What I mean is, why does this city, alone out of all the world's cities, it would seem, have an article as part of its name? Why "The" Hague? (Plus, the explanation about "the count's hedge" only further confuses things: what does a count's hedge have to do with the city?) And I think an explanation of this belongs in the article as well. --ILike2BeAnonymous 04:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

There are more cities with an article in their name. In the Netherlands it is fairly common: Den Helder is an example, and there are many more smaller towns. In France, I know of Le Havre and La Haye. The Hague is perhaps the only city with an article that has an English name. I don't think it's that interesting, really.

The Hague isn't the only one. There's also The Pas in Manitoba, Canada, and there may be others. I think it's an interesting enough anomaly in naming conventions that if there are a few more placenames with English articles in them, it might warrant a category, if not a short article. Unigolyn 07:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that the word "hedge" ("haag" in Dutch) originaly not only referred to a hedge, but also to the area enclosed by a hedge. So the city is named after the territory owned by the count of Holland, which was enclosed by a hedge. Probably a reference to Willem II's hunting lodge. Eugene van der Pijll 13:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Haag was used as a synonym of "court".--MWAK 10:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

here are some more (well known) examples::

Las Vegas actually means The Fertile valleys, and Los Angeles - The Angels (from Spanish translation I believe - no doubt due to eb corrected by someone out there!!) So, The Hague seems to be quite in order and, as there are many many examples of place names borne from items throughout the world, The Count's Hedge seems, to me, to be one of the least confusing of the lot!!.

[edit] The Hague Tribunal?

I know there is/was a peace court in The Hague called "The Hague Tribunal", but I cant find any information about it and it's not mentioned here. Anyone know anything about it? -- Fwahobadagadz

See Hague Tribunal. The link The Hague Tribunal also works now. Eugene van der Pijll 17:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] european pattent office

Hi. Could somebody add European Patent Office http://www.european-patent-office.org/index.en.php ? it is quite a big international organisation too. I don't know how to add it :) thanks.a.

The EPO has been on the page several times already and I removed it everytime. The EPO is not in The Hague, it is in Rijswijk. This is a town very close to The Hague and maybe be almost indistinguishable from The Hague, but it is not The Hague. I know, because while I live in The Hague, I work literally around the corner from the EPO. Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] according to its webpage, The Hague is not a city

The Hague's official webpage states at http://www.thehague.nl/default.asp?id=DOORWAYNEWS-uk

"The Hague was originally a hamlet close to the count's castle built in the 13th century. The village was first recorded in a document dated 1370, but has never been granted a Charter. Charters entitled medieval villages to erect defence walls and dig moats to protect their citizens. It also gave villages certain privileges, including the right to administer justice. Attempts by The Hague to obtain a Charter were continuously thwarted, although noblemen in the Large Hall of the Count’s Castle administered justice. In 1811, The Hague was granted a 48-hour Charter by Napoleon, when he proclaimed The Hague 'Bonne Ville de l'Empire'. Passing through on his journey from Amsterdam to Paris, he refused to stay in a village.

"Even today, The Hague has no Charter. From 1851, local legislation no longer distinguishes between city and countryside. The Netherlands now only has municipalities, with the exception of Amsterdam, which is a city under the Dutch Constitution. 's-Gravenhage -- the official name for The Hague, literally tranlated as 'the Count's hedge' -- was never awarded city rights. Although The Hague gives an outward appearance of being a full-fledged city, it is still today known as 'the largest village of Europe'. Even though voices whispered 'The Hague is the third largest city of the Netherlands' with a population of 450,000, it was still not granted its charter when it celebrated its 750 anniversary in 1998."

Accordingly, the following language in the current Wikipedia entry would appear to be innaccurate:

"The Hague was finally named a city by the French occupation force in 1806, centuries after other Dutch cities had received similar rights. All this has led to the urban legend that The Hague is not a city but a village."

The best sourced information that I can found is from the "Repertorium of city rights" at http://www.stadsrechten.nl. The Hague received several of the city privileges between 1451 and 1559; king Louis Napoleon declared The Hague to be the third city of his kingdom on Tuesday 25 November 1806; emperor Napoleon affirmed that in 1811, which meant that the mayors could come to his coronation. In 1814, the new Dutch government also classified The Hague as a city.

I would say the wikipedia entry is mostly accurate. Eugene van der Pijll 20:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I actually saw the official documents confirming the city charter myself once, when I visited the official city archive back in the 1980s. The story as noted in the current article is something the staff explained to me in some detail, as they get this question all the time :) Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] Translating 'Stadsdeel'

A quick note about translating 'stadsdeel'. Possible translations include 'borough' and 'district'. I have seen 'district' used in English-language city hall press releases. 'District' seems better since a borough usually has its own council whereas The Hague's stadsdelen do not have councils.

The Hague is one of three municipalities in the Netherlands with stadsdelen. The other ones are Rotterdam and Amsterdam. I think it is best if the same words are used in all of these cities, just like in Dutch. And in those cities, there are elected councils ("stadsdeelraden"), so they can really be called "boroughs". I think. So I prefer "borough" for The Hague as well. But it's not an important issue to me. (At the moment though, "district" is used several times in this article as a translation for "wijk", e.g. for Binckhorst and Bezuidenhout. That is not correct, IMHO) -- Eugene van der Pijll 22:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "poorest in Western Europe"

The claim that the Schilderswijk was the poorest city quarter in Europe in the 1980s is very hard to believe. I would like to see a reference to back up that claim.

[edit] Adding people

Recently many people have been added to the "famous people from The Hague" list. However, most of them are completely unknown, at least to me and I usually follow sports and would like to think that I am somewhat knowledgable about people from my hometown. Especially in the English version of this article, I propose that we only add people to this list who at the very least are well known in The Netherlands but also are known internationally. Any objections to this? Patrick Rasenberg

Yes, I do object. Wikipedia tries to be as complete as possible. If someone is unknown to you, well sorry; that might even be the best reason to keep them there! Or are we just adding info that's "known" to us?? That would be a bit strange, wouldn't it? There were sportspeople listed with a longer track record in their discipline than the people, who you decided should stay on the list. I do however prefer to change "Famous" into "Notable sportspeople". Regards, Darius Dhlomo 09:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree it should be more than just whether or not somebody knows a sportsperson or not. I do not agree that completeness is a goal. We could also include all 472,00 people living in The Hague. That would be very complete, but not very useful. To be mentioned on a page about a city, I strongly feel that person needs to be famous (or notable). So winning a major title or event, preferably several times, or being very well known for another reason should be a deciding factor. This is epecially the case on the English version of a page about a Dutch city. One example: you included Tineke Hofland. She did not even reach the finals in the 1972 Olympics swimming event. A person like that is notable nor famous and is not relevant in an article about The Hague. Patrick Rasenberg

And Alex Lely – completely unknown to me and considering his type of sports completely irrelevant as well – is, I presume? Very notable indeed... Someone who competed in the world sport of swimming for Holland in the Summer Olympics, and won several titles back home, is much more "notable" to many people than mister Lely. Subjective, indeed. But that's just my point, which you ignore. Maybe it's best to skip them all. Darius Dhlomo

I have no idea who Alex Lely is, frankly. But if he has not won some major titles, no he should not be on the page. Feel free to google the man and remove him if necessary. If not, I'll do it the next time I edit the page.

[edit] geography

what's the northern european location of the un war crimes court in which the miloshevic trial took place in

At the Prins Clauslaan?

[edit] Poor areas

Their aren't poor areas in the south of The Hague.Actually,'stuck-up' areas like Waldeck,Kijkduin/Ockenburg and Loosduinen are in the south of The Hague.And comparised to Schilderswijk and Transvaal (which isn't in the south and isn't in the east of The Hague) Moerwijk is a paradise.

[edit] Bombs on the Bezuidenhout

Some URLS about the British bombs on the Bezuidenhout:

• http://walraven.org/vietnam/the_early_years.html
• http://www.godutch.com/windmill/newsItem.asp?id=505
• http://home.wxs.nl/~oomen077/Engels/bio_05.htm

[edit] Missing sections

I called this a B in my quick review, but it's only just a B. IMHO this article should really have sections on the Economy and Geography, and more information on demographics and local government/politics/administration. Regarding the "famous people" section discussed above, this section is not present in most FAs or GAs on cities; London has had one or two famous people born there, but you won't find room to list them on the London page. If this section must be present, I think you should limit it to the most famous dozen or so people, otherwise it ends up becoming half of the article. If you want a long list, this should be spun off into a separate list. Walkerma 03:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the part about famous people. I always found a bit weird to mention this on a page about a city. I'll see if I clean this up. A paragraph about Economy might be an idea, although the business paragraph covers the most import matters. I am not sure however what a geography paragraph should look like. Can you expand on that? Prasenberg 15:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC) = prasenberg

[edit] People in metropolitan area

The number of people living in the metropolitan area has suddenly been expanded to almost 1 million. Ar there any sources for this? The Hague itself is 472.000. If you include Leidschendam-Voorburg and Rijswijk you'd get to perhaps about 600.000, but probably less. Where are the other 400.000 people? Even if you include Wassenaar, Delft and Wateringen, which in my opinion are really not part of metropolitan The Hague, you get nowhere near 990.000. Prasenberg 15:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC) = prasenberg

To get close to 1mln, you need to include at least Delft, Westland, Zoetermeer (100,000 each), Pijnacker-Nootdorp (40,000), Leidschendam-Voorburg (75,000), Rijswijk (50,000), and Wassenaar (25,000). That is clearly larger than the agglomeration of Den Haag as defined by wikipedia (which I guess would be DH+L-V+Rijswijk+Nootdorp+Wateringen). The definition of the metropolitan area of Den Haag varies; it may well include Wassenaar and Zoetermeer, as there are close economic connections between them and The Hague. But definitions that include Delft as well result in one metropolean area for Rotterdam and The Hague (population 1.5 - 2 mln?) or the Randstad. Best solution perhaps to replace the number with "population of agglomeration of 600,000. Eugène van der Pijll 16:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I will change the text in this fashion. Prasenberg 17:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC) = prasenberg

I've done some research: the number of inhabitants that keeps getting inserted is the population of the region nl:Haaglanden.

CBS (Statistics Netherlands) has four different definitions for the "region The Hague" [1]:

• Municipality "'s-Gravenhage": pop. 475,000 (only The Hague)
• Grootstedelijke agglomeratie "'s-Gravenhage": pop. 621,000 (The Hague, plus L-V, Rijswijk and Wassenaar)
• COROP-region "Agglomeratie 's-Gravenhage": population 780,000 (previous, plus Zoetermeer and Pijnacker-Nootdorp)
• Stadsgewest "'s-Gravenhage": pop. 991,000 (previous, plus Delft, Westland and Midden-Delfland)

The definition of "grootsedelijke agglomeratie" is available here. Eugène van der Pijll 12:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suburbs

In response to my frequent reversals of the European Patent Office being in The Hague (it is located in Rijswijk), user JdH has made the following point on my UserPage:

May I suggest to you that you may want to stop reverting those edits? To a non-Netherlander Rijswijk and Voorburg are simply suburbs of The Hague; to them the notion that they are separate entities is irrelevant. For instance, I could claim that the Dutch consulate in the state of Georgia is in Buckhead; that is perfectly true, but does that make sense to you? Things becomes much clearer by saying that the Dutch consulate is in Atlanta; perhaps one could refine that by saying that it is in an Atlanta suburb called Buckhead, but people who don't live in the Atlanta area simply don't care.

Although I do not agree, his point is not without merit of course. My counter-argument would be that the European Patent Office simply is not located in the municipality of The Hague, but in Rijswijk. That most people don't care that Rijswijk is not part of The Hague is probably true, but an encyclopedia like Wikipedia should stick to factual information and leave it to individuals to care or not about such distinctions. Perhaps we could include a paragraph about the surrounding towns like Rijswijk, Leidschendam-Voorburg, Wassenaar etcetera. Any thoughts? prasenberg 07:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Where it boils down to is this: are we talking about the administrative entity municipality, or about an urban area? My point is that common use of the name The Hague implies urban area, not administrative units. The way administrative units are organized differs from country to country, and from place to place, and most people don't care about it. For instance, New York City is subdivided into five boroughs; London in 33 districts (City & 32 London boroughs), and Brussels is made up of 19 municipalities. Ever heard of Etterbeek or Koekelberg? It would be very confusing if we all of sudden have to abandon the notion that the EU has its headquarters in Brussels, and all of us have to start memorizing in which of those 19 municipalities the various offices of the EU are located.
The upshot of it is that this article lacks a section in which the administrative organization of the urban area of the Hague is discussed. For some unphantomable reason Netherlanders are obsessed with their little administrative units, and loose track of the larger picture. What if in the next reshuffling of municipalities Rijswijk & Voorburg get absorbed by The Hague? Would that change where those various offices are located? Would the average redneck down south of bloke down under care about it? You may want to have a look at Brussels or London or New York City to see how this issue is dealt with in those articles.
Please remember: This is en wikipedia; this article should provide information that is relevant for an English speaking audience. This article has the smell of Brussels sprouts all over it. JdH 10:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The difference is of course that the boroughs of New York are still part of one city. With one mayor. The parts of Brussels are still part of the Hoofdstedelijk Gewest. Ken Livingstone is Mayor of all 32 boroughs and City. Rijswijk on the other hand, is not part of The Hague. My personal opinion is that this is a ridiculous thing, as it is clearly part of the same "urban area" as you call it. But the fact still stands. Also, there are no regular reshufflings. This is not something that is about to change or has significantly changed in the past, the assignment of some grasslands to The Hague recently nonetheless. I completely agree with your personal observations that it is ridiculous, but it is just that: an opinion. prasenberg 13:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

But sure enough there is a Stadsgewest Haaglanden. It is a well defined entity, and it has its own governing body and stuff. There really is not that much of a difference with the Brussels-Capital Region or Greater London. JdH 15:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and it would be OK to say that the EPO is in Haaglanden. But it is not in The Hague. Eugène van der Pijll 15:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

More than that: there is no discussion of Stadsgewest Haaglanden anywhere. It is briefly mentioned in the article on South Holland, but that's all I can find about it. I think a paragraph on the "The Hague City region" would be very helpful. Provide a list of links to the relevant municipalities. Once that is done it becomes pretty straightforward to explain where those various offices are located, like this: EPO (Rijswijk). Also, it provides a context to explain why there is no major University in the Hague: Delft is part of Haaglanden and is only a short distance away from the city center. JdH 16:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I could live with a mention of "Also, the European Patent Organisation has an office in nearby Rijswijk." at the bottom of the section "International organisations". As long as it is clearly set off from the rest of the list (which are all organizations actually located in The Hague). As for your reason why there is no university in The Hague: are you serious??? -- Eugène van der Pijll 18:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. Remember, most of the readers will be from the US or the UK. Why would someone from the US want to read this article? Well, perhaps they are planning a vacation, so you want to tell them what they may want to see or do. Or perhaps expatriates who are planning to move here for their job, stuff like that. To them it is inconceivable that a medium-sized city like The Hague can exist without University, and they may wonder where people send their kids for an education. Or what people do for entertainment. This article should clear up issues like that, or at the very least point in the right direction. btw: HBO would be equivalent to Community College in the US or even University (without graduate program that is, and there are plenty of those in the US). But to Americans Delft is The Hague, what is the distance? 5 miles or something? That is less than most people commute on a daily basis. JdH 18:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd have no problems with such a reference either. Please note however, that it is not even the main office of the EPO :) The EPO is headquartered in Munich, Germany, not in The Hague. prasenberg 18:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, even to Americans Delft is not The Hague. That is simply absurd. Delft Technical University is also not in any way related to the lack of a university in The Hague. Also, go to Wikitravel for advice on what to do for entertainment. An encyclopedia should be factual. Nothing more. Finally, the English version of the page is in my opinion not only intended for the UK and the USA, but for everyone who speaks English. prasenberg 19:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

What is really absurd is that you think that it is absurd to even mention that there are places of higher learning in a nearby town, which btw does belong to Haaglanden. Just descent from your narrow-minded pulpit for a moment, and give it some thought of what it is what English-speaking people are looking for when they come here. JdH 19:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

Perhaps the .ogg file format could be changed to something everybody can read. .ogg files aren't exactly popular among the masses and I'm having trouble finding a codec to read it.

Please somebody remove that The Hague is the capital of The Netherlands. Amsterdam is the capital of the netherlands

The article already specifically states that Amsterdam is the capital. Also, this is wikipedia. If you want to change something, you can change it yourself :) Patrick Rasenberg

"Please somebody remove "model united nations" from the UN institutions summary. A model united nations is merely a student debating conference and is not affiliated with the UN"

"'s-Gravenhage literally means "The counts' hedge"."

No it does not. It means "The Count's Hedge". 's-Graven is a singular (compare German "des Grafen").

One thing I wonder: if I were to alphabetize The Hague, would I put it under 'T' or 'H'? "The Hague", or "Hague, The"?

--Furrykef 15:23, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The count's hedge is singular too, I think? I'd put it under the T, by the way. Just treat it as a name without meaning.

In Dutch lists, the most common practice seems to be to sort "Den Haag" under the D, and "'s Gravenhage" under the G, possibly because the "s" is not capitalized. Eugene van der Pijll 14:33, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think the point, in case anyone's still confused, is that "the counts'" is "of the counts" (plural), whereas "the count's" is "of the count" (singular) - subtle, but different. - IMSoP 16:20, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

"Indo" is the correct term for people of mixed Dutch-Indonesian descent. "Indisch" refers to "full-blooded" Indonesians from "Nederlands Indië".

[edit] Vandalism

This page fell victim to vandalism today between 15:30 and 16:00 CET. Could someone please go through it and remove all sexual, racist and homophobic references? Thanks.193.190.134.66 16:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite?

I haven't looked at this page in a while, but it seems to be spiralling out of control. The banner about advocacy was well deserved. It seems like the local tourist board spent an afternoon pimping the page :) Also, the only real work recently seems to be expanding the lists of events and international organisations, which is not a good thing per se. I think the page is ripe for a rewrite. This should include:

• proper sources for the history paragrapah. The history paragraph itself could be extended too
• an expanded paragraph on geography, as requested above
• a strict edit on the several lists

Any more suggestions on how to improve the page?

prasenberg 07:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this article can surely be taken up a notch. I'll think about what I can do to help, if I find the time.

• In any case, I believe the section on International organisations can and should be expanded, since this is one of the main reasons The Hague gets noticed as a city (mostly in the news). A seperate section on the international courts should definitely be considered.

• Also, the geography section should be expanded and put directly after the history section (and thus before the section on the city). This because the geography section will probably be part history, part city info.

• The culture section is problematic, and mostly tourist info. A lot of items on the list should be cut and the remaining expanded a little to explain their place in the culture of the city. Also, I can imagine such things like a new section on the music scene, maybe literature, the royal family, multiculturalism, etc. etc. Things that really define the culture of a city instead of a list of tourist attractions that sadly says very little.

• The events section could be a nice one, with some more explanations on the events theselves and a little pruning of the list. And some pictures.

• Maybe an entire new section on architecture (historical & modern). And/or a small one on demographics.

• Also, some background information on the suburbs and the Haaglanden region. Like stated elsewhere on this talk page, it's important to think about the readers and why they would read this article. In some cases "crossing the city borders", like mentioning TU Delft (exact phrasing will probably be debated), can be very informing and/or useful for readers.

• The pictures are definitely not bad, perhaps a bit repetitive in the end. But what I really miss is pictures with people on them: this adds 'feeling' to the article and tells about culture, and the people that actually live in the city.

• Like all articles, this one too needs some referencing.

There already is quite a lot of good info in this article, elaboration on and organisation of the existing information will go a long way. But there's definitely a lot of potential for some new things too.

Feer 23:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-official names

I've personally never heard anyone call Den Haag that, and I live in Den Haag. 83.87.69.47 23:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Me neither and I live in The Hague as well. Also: "Residentie" is a usual term, but I've never heard anyone refer to The Hague as "Residentiestad" prasenberg 07:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

In some highbrow subculture, the city is sometimes called Haga. Ad43 (talk) 12:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English Pronunciation

I recently heard someone pronounce what I assumed from the context was "The Hague", but he pronounced it as "The Age". My dictionary says "heig" (the regular pronunciation) but is there an acceptable alternative? Has anybody else heard this pronunciation?GSTQ (talk) 00:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The name of the city is pronounced as in your dictionary, I never heard any other way to pronounce it. prasenberg (talk) 10:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Capital of Netherlands

If the Hague has the Netherlands government why isn't it the capital? 122.105.217.71 (talk) 09:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

From the article: "The Hague is the actual seat of government, but, somewhat anomalously, not the official capital of the Netherlands, a role set aside by the Dutch constitution for Amsterdam."

The constitution says Amsterdam is the capital, even though the government is in The Hague. It would be similar to the case if, say, Congress and the President moved to Houston, Texas, and ran the country from there, but never passed a law saying Washington, D.C., wasn't the capital anymore.

Most reference books (encyclopedias, almanacs, etc.) list both cities as the capital. Only Pretoria and Cape Town in South Africa (which is a former Dutch colony ... hmmm) tend to get similar treatment. 66.234.220.195 (talk) 07:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

If Congress and the President moved to Houston, Texas, and ran the country from there, but never passed a law saying Washington, D.C., wasn't the capital anymore Houston would be the capital according to Wikipedia's article on capital. 122.105.217.71 (talk) 09:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there any reason you posted this on the Hague, Netherlands and Amsterdam. The answer is the same; Wiki on capitals does not say it is ALWAYS but ALMOST ALWAYS the case, and even if it were saying ALWAYS, wikipedia does not influence Dutch law. This whole discussion is therefore moot. Arnoutf (talk) 17:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, the reason I put it on three different articles is so it would have more chance of being notised. Secondly, it says that the capital is the center of government. The hague is that, not Amsterdam. Thirdly, Dutch law has nothing to do with the definiton of capital. 122.105.217.71 (talk) 06:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dutch Law has nothing to do with a definition thought up by Wikipedia, you are right about that. But such a definition also has no meaning at all in The Netherlands, where the constitution defines Amsterdam as the capital of the country. The constitution of the country in question is probably a bit more important than a definition that somebody wrote up on Wikipedia. Wikipedia could define the sky as yellow. That doesn't make it so. prasenberg (talk) 10:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and the Netherlands could define the sky as yellow above the Netherlands. That doesn't make it so. 122.105.217.71 (talk) 07:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes but the law of a country is a more reliable source than an article on wikipedia. Arnoutf (talk) 08:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Country's laws are unrelated to the capital. Laws can't define facts other that the laws themselves. The laws do not define capital ether, they just say that Amsterdam is capital which is wrong according to all definitions that I've seen specific on that matter. 122.105.217.71 (talk) 04:27, 12 March 2008 (UTC) Including the one at dictionary.com 122.105.217.71 (talk) 05:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Simply put if Dutch law states "Amsterdam is the capital" that is the case. Any definition not allowing for that is wrong. Arnoutf (talk) 10:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Then what do you think capital even means? 122.105.217.71 (talk) 08:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Head City, literal. Government is not necessarily part of that. ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 09:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Refference please. 122.105.217.71 (talk) 07:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Your own favourite capital article. Arnoutf (talk) 08:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I will no longer answer on this page as there is major overlap in this discussion with that on Amsterdam and The Netherlands. I will only respond to subsequent remarks on The Netherlands talk page.Arnoutf (talk) 08:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

This is what I learnt (and put in the article): After the Napoleonic Wars, Belgium and the Netherlands were combined in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands to form a buffer against France. As a compromise, Brussels and Amsterdam alternated as capital every two years, with the government remaining in The Hague. After the separation of Belgium in 1830, Amsterdam remained the capital of the Netherlands, while the government stayed in The Hague. (sorry about the absence of source, I'll try to look it up somewhere, but you can see in the article of United Kingdom of the Netherlands that it has two capitals) Joost 99 (talk) 20:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "The" in English-language place names

The problem with the discussion about whether the article should be titled "Hague, The" or "The Hague" is that there are very few English-language place names that begin with "The." Los Angeles and Las Vegas are in the United States, true (along with Las Cruces and a number of other places); however, the words "Los" and "Las" are Spanish definite plural. (Spanish singular definite articles "El" and "La," as well as "Del"—meaning of the—are also common in some parts of the country.)

The only community I can think of beginning with "The" in the United States is The Dalles, a small town in the Columbia Gorge about 85 miles east of Portland, Oregon. There may be other planned communities with "The" prefixing their name to give them a more genteel sound, however. 66.234.220.195 (talk) 07:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there a discussion; I have seen some old versions but nothing recent? The Hague is never ever used without the article; and is probably unrecognisalbe without, not unsimilar to Angeles (oh sorry Los Angeles).Arnoutf (talk) 17:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How the Hague became the residency

The following part of the article in the history bit is just plain silly:

After The Hague ceased to be the residence of the Counts of Holland, the powerful cities of Holland, like Leiden, Delft, and Dordrecht, struck a compromise to choose the then small and unimportant village of The Hague as their administrative center. This was also the main reason for William of Orange to chose The Hague as the location of the government of the Dutch Republic.

The abovementioned cities never decided upon a common administration. Until well in the 16th century they were at odds over their spheres of power and trading rights. Any kind of central government in the Dutch provinces has always been imposed by foreigners.

When the Dukes of Burgundy gained control over the counties of Holland and Zeeland they appointed a stadtholder to rule in their stead with the Estates-General as an advisory council. This council was seated in Dordrecht which was then the most powerfull city in the county of Holland. However after the Sint-Elisabethsvloed flood of 1421, the city of dordrecht found itself suddenly to be located on an island in the delta of the river Maas and cut of from the main land routes. This made it imperative that the Estates-General found another place to meet for which the former counts residence in The Hague was chosen.

William of Orange never choose the Hague as the seat of government, it was allready there. William of Orange never even resided in The Hague, he chose the nearby fortified city of Delft. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.40.193.16 (talk) 16:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

For the next time: if you bump into mistakes, please correct them. It is just plain silly to start a useless discussion and leave an apparent mistake in the text.

Concerning the Estates-General, the first meeting was in 1464 in Brugge. The first mention of the States of Holland was in 1428. Please please help me out what Dordrecht has to do with this. Joost 99 (talk) 20:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)