Talk:The Goon Show

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[edit] Character relations...

Some recent edits have stated certain family relations between characters, such as Minnie being Bluebottle's grandmother, and Eccles Henry's nephew. But aren't these on a per-episode basis anyway? I remember one in which Eccles and Seagoon were brothers.--DooMDrat 06:59, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Update: I decided to remove those lines.-DooMDrat 02:30, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Eccles is ondeed referred to as "Neddie's idiot half-brother" in two episodes and in "The Very last Goon Show Of All"

But then again, the shows, along with the characters, have been located in time periods ranging from 49 BC up to 1985, so you have to take all but the broadest facts of the programme on a show-by-show basis--Crais459 15:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Barclays Bank Flexidisc

I have a "Goons" promotional flexidisc dating from the mid to late seventies. No mention is made about it. I suspect that only Milligan and Seacombe were involved. Does anyone know about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awernham (talk • contribs) 19:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Orb

The article now mentions that Bloonoks flatulence sound effect was sampled by the Orb for one of their tracks - anyone know wich track it was?

[edit] Goon Show userbox

Add this to your userpage: {{User GoonShow}}.--Drat (Talk) 03:30, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Great work! But is there a usergroup for Goon fans? (e.g. like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:User_piano-2) --Albert 18:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Done. The userbox now automatically places those who have it in Category:Wikipedians who are fans of The Goon Show.--Drat (Talk) 17:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm embarrased to ask if anyone else knows . . .

. . . But I have read in a book purporting to speak in Spike's voice (which I shall check on my return from work) that Milligan's alleged attack on Sellers was not with a knife, but with a potato peeler (this is Spike we're talking about here). After some time of frenzied running around, Sellers finally twigged that Spike wasn't joking . . .

Has anyone else heard this version of events?Johno 05:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

  • It's in Norma Farnes' book The Goons: The Story. It's probably reliable enough to put in the article even if it is Spike. --Bolognaking 20:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I've changed the page around a bit...

... but it is by no means perfect. If anyone else wants to help tidy-up the page, getting information into the right areas then by all means go ahead. For example I've created the sub-section of 'Music and Sound Effects' under 'format' but I don't think that there is enough there about Ray Ellington. --Albert 16:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Goon Show Barnstar...

... is now availiable to all of those who make great contributions to this and all other Goon articles.

Image:goonstar.png (goonstar.png)

(Made from brown-type paper and string, the Goon Show Barnstar© is availiable in all good drug-stores) (--Albert 00:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] References

The The Goon Show#References section of this article is far too sparse. If the web sites used in the external links section have been used as references (as is implied above on this page), they should be listed as references using {{cite web}}. Uncle G 11:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Most of us have access to various episodes of the Goon Show — this is the only primary source really required to contribute. Quotes etc. often mention what episode they appear in. Okay, not exactly 'wikified' enough for you perhaps, but 99.9% of what you read in this article is pretty much true. Not everything can be referenced from the internet you know.--AlbertW 12:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Wrong. Please read our Wikipedia:No original research policy. And no-one said that everything should be referenced from Internet. However, everything must be referenced. Editors can, should, and will remove all unsourced material. Uncle G 14:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Delete the whole bloody page then if you want to get in such a strop over unwikification. --AlbertW 15:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
        • For those who wish to play by the rules: WP:IAR. I.e., there is more leeway on WP than "reference everything or face deletion". proteus 16:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
          • Wrong. Verifiability is not optional. As I've already warned you, editors will remove unsourced material. They've been told to insist upon sources. Your defence against this is to adopt the practice of citing sources, which is and always has been good editing practice. It is not to try to claim that verifiability is optional and that you can ignore it. Uncle G 17:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
            • AlbertW is right — most of the page is about to be deaded. Everyone make backups so we can start our own Goon Wiki elsewhere if necessary. Admins threaten slash-and-burn tactics due to violations of the rules... at least the rules they care to accept (of which WP:IAR is not one). It's like dealing with a school librarian who tears up a student's drawing because drawing is not allowed according to the Rules™. WP has got a number of admins who think this way, and they usually delete what they want despite any and all cogent objections. Reverse Cunningham was just deleted recently despite the fact that no one could refute the case not to — I had to Google an old copy of the page just to retrieve the data. I pasted it on the Chuck Cunningham Syndrome page and no one has complained of its inclusion. In short, some admins will burn a village of information in order to save the Rules™. Save this page just in case it happens here. --Proteus71 18:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
              • I agree with Uncle G that the level of referencing for the article as it now stands is very low; there are numerous biographies, publications of Goon Show scripts, reminiscences and commentary about the show which exist in a published format (and as transcriptions of radio/TV interviews) which really ought to be referenced properly in this article. This can be been done simply by inserting a cite sources reference in the body of the article where something that seems like hearsay or unsubstantiated rumour comes up. But to say that editors "should... remove all unsourced material" is arguably going too far. Ask for references where you think there are contentious points first, and please do not do the various contributors to this article a dis-service by deleting with editorial impunity before taking that step first. That only seems fair. Captmondo 16:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
                • A 'Goon Wiki', without ludicrous referencing rules sounds a great idea. Perhaps its worth setting one up independently to wikipedia (if fans of shows like 'star trek' can do so, why cant fans of far superior show do the same?). I'm certainly not going to waste my time referencing the whole article (the references would easily take up more than 2 sides of A4). All is needed is something like the following:

                  Neddie Seagoon is often referred to as very fat and very short - in The Greenslade Story, after Neddie exclaims to John Snagge, "Not so fast, Mr John Boat Race Snagge!", Snagge dryly remarks "Those words came from a small ball of fat that sprang from behind a piano stool".--AlbertW 19:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree there needs to be more references, the trouble with a lot of other Goon fan sites is that they repeat half remembered stories about the cast etc - I see no problem with trying to reference where these came from. Unfortunately most of the references are books and their contents are not available on the web but at least the books can be cited. All surviving Goon Shows now have a transcript available on the web so quotes can be referenced directly. But I'll need a little time to get up to speed on how references are done here --AGoon 29 July 2006 (UTC)
    • I think there needs to be references where assertions are made, like when talking about it's popularity and influence, or where something has been 'reported' or 'rumoured' or 'cited' etc. I will go through and mark the spots I think need citations and start adding citations. I will also go through and remove the excessive number of trivial links (why is every date linked and words like 'sound effects', 'tape recorder', 'film', 'Australia', 'London' linked?) - surely only contextually significant links are wanted?? --AGoon 05:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Full dates are usually linked as they then convert to an individual viewer's preferred date format.--Drat (Talk) 09:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Ahhh ha, ok, but these are mainly just years, not full dates - any objection to unlinking them? --AGoon 12:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
          • Should be fine. I think the manual of style suggests delinking "loose" years.--Drat (Talk) 14:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
      • References for "there have been rumours" are also required. The best template for that is probably {{who}}. Uncle G 10:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
    • To cite a book, just use {{cite book}}. Book citations are perfectly fine. The idea that everything has to be on the World Wide Web is a straw man, introduced above by editors who are refusing to take the hint that they should start adding citations now. Thank you to AGoon and 203.97.220.179 for starting on the work that is required. Yes, it's a lot of work. But you can blame that on the lousy writers before you who added content without citing any of their sources. ☺ Uncle G 10:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't care what Jimmy Wales says. My name is Thomas Wales, and thus beat him by one letter. :p --AlbertW 14:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
    • When I hear that this page needs more references, this is what I envision the page looking like:
The Goon Show was a popular and influential British radio comedy programme, originally produced and broadcast by the BBC from 1951 to 1960 on the BBC Home Service{{fact}}.
The scripts mixed ludicrous plots with surreal humour, puns, catchphrases and an array of silly and surreal sound effects{{fact}}. Some of the later episodes feature electronic effects{{fact}} devised by the fledgling BBC Radiophonic Workshop{{fact}}, many of which were reused by other shows for decades afterward{{fact}}.
Many elements of the show satirized contemporary life in Britain, parodying aspects of showbusiness{{fact}}, commerce{{fact}}, industry{{fact}}, art{{fact}}, politics{{fact}}, diplomacy{{fact}}, the police{{fact}}, the military{{fact}}, education{{fact}}, class structure{{fact}}, literature{{fact}}, and film{{fact}}.
Is this accurate, or would fewer references be considered appropriate? --Proteus71 21:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Arggghh, I think that's over the top, as I said further up I see the need for references whenever assertions are made, or where something has been 'reported' or 'rumoured' or 'cited' etc : things which might be seen as an opinion rather than fact if not backed up.
Anything that is relatively unlikely to be contested (like the sun comes up every morning, or The Goons was broadcast on the BBC Home Service) doesn't need a reference to back it up.
As for your list above, I would instead create links to examples of scripts containing said aspect of British life.
I have already inserted {{fact}} markers where I see the need, everyone is welcome to suggest more (or suggest less) and provide the actual references. --AGoon 09:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I have added a few references to things that can be traced back to Wilmut's book. --AGoon 10:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Have suggested a few more places for citations, and added links to transcripts of every show mentioned. The reference/citations I've added so far are all to Wilmut's book because that's the only reference I've got to hand. Some of these would probably be better sourced elsewhere. Anyone got any biographies etc to hand? If so could you add a few more entries? (I feel a trip to the library coming on :-) --AGoon 11:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
      • If no one can state what is left to be referenced on this page, I say the 'unreferenced' tag needs to go. Proteus71 23:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
        • There's still lots of bits marked citation needed which need references - so if you want to remove the unreferenced tag then we need to either delete the paragraphs which no one can bother to find a reference to back up, or find a reference for them, or delete the citation needed tags (most of which I put there) and just pretend they don't need referencing ;-) --AGoon 04:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Versions of stories

There are inevitably multiple versions of Goon stories (one version per Goon at least), obviously difficult to say that any of them are the 'true' version of events - so every time someone adds an unreferenced story I have been trying to find a reference for it, preferrably in the words of a participant (rather than a third party) - this means I have been substituting versions of stories that I can actually source. I have no problem with people substituting other versions so long as they provide a good reference (I'm thinking of starting a wiki page just for all the different versions of Spike meets Harry). --AGoon 12:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time for a trim?

We are now getting warnings that the size is greater than 32k (warning because this might cause problems in some browsers). Maybe it's time for a trim. There's a lot of good stuff in there, but maybe some things should be moved to their own page eg do we need every catch-phrase and time wasting example? Maybe an encyclopedia entry should be a bit more concise and just give a couple of good examples. --AGoon 10:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd say that music and sound effects can be made a bit more concise, some of the waffling in the Running Joke section can be cut out (e.g. in the Grytpype Thynne quotes section, some of that reads not at all like an encyclopedia), and Time Wasting can be cut to just, say, the four funniest examples. A lot of the quotes can be (eventually) ported to Wikiquote, and then just linked to that from here. If nobody objects (and object in my talk page, please), then in about a week I'll do it myself (except for the wikiquote bit - someone with a wikiquote account can do that, otherwise I'm waiting unitl the single login is implemented). —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 11:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think 'Running Jokes' section needs a new page. It would be a great shame to delete huge chunks of it.--AlbertW 11:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Go do it :-) --AGoon 12:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Support - linked Running Jokes article idea. Style of inclusions should be tidied onced article established. Dont forget the "Bibligraphy" and "inline referencing" requirements. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking good :-) --AGoon 01:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Any objections to trimimg this talk page? I propose to delete stuff that is dealt with and unlikely to come up again 1)Broadcast, 2) Kenny, 4) Films, 5) Grytpype, 7) Teahouse, 9) Fred Fu, 12) Anxious Bluebottle, 13) Transcript refs, 14) Coon, 15) Dirty Jokes
Archive it.--Drat (Talk) 05:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, done (nb discussions are now renumbered) I've kept anything that looks unresolved or may come up again - speaking of which, I may in the future create a FAQ under archives to put re-occuring discussions (or ones which are liable to recur) --AGoon 11:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Archiving' & 'Episodes'?

With running jokes sorted, I feel like we should sort out the confusing Goon Show Archiving and List of Goon Show episodes. I believe these two should be merged to a) save space b) create a consise 'Goon Show Episodes' page etc. Thoughts? --AlbertW 15:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I was going to say no don't, but then looked at how little was on the Archiving page, so I say yes do it! :-) (everything from Lost Episodes down tacked onto end of Episodes page) --AGoon 01:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revival restructure

I was adding Goon Cartoon books to the revival section, and found it rather an odd section, so have restructured it and moved films, made during the series, out (as they're not by definition revivals). --AGoon 10:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Would the kind person who pasted a {{cleanup}} tag into the article page please follow cleanup guidelines and put some commentary here, or use a more specific tag. --AGoon 19:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Unless someone is more specific about what they think needs changing (apart from the ongoing reference adding) then I shall remove the cleanup tag. --AGoon 09:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
As no details forthcoming from anonymous cleanup tagger, I have removed it. --AGoon 08:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split "The Goons" from "The Goon Show" ?

Some of the info on the article page is about The Goons and some about their show. The two aren't quite the same thing - eg The Goons did some things together that wasn't the show.
To allow a bit more background on The Goons, what was happening between them before The Goon Show, and references to what they did together besides The Goon Show, how about we seperate The Goons from info about the show?
We un-redirect "The Goons" move stuff there about the group, with of course a major link to here.? --AGoon 21:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Goon Show

I was wondering if it is worth creating a Wikipedia:WikiProject for The Goon Show and associated articles. For those unsure what a WikiProject is have a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan as an example.

Vote Yea or Nay below whether you think this is a good idea.--AlbertW 09:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References still needed

Here is a list of bits that I or others think need references. A lot of them are interesting stories and it would be nice to include them, but without a reference to where you heard the story there is no easy way to verify them (I've not found a suitable reference)
 (NB we don't need proof that they are 'true' just a pointer to where the story came from so people can trace it back)
 I propose that if no references are forthcoming we move them to discussion (ok, I just did :-) and remove them from the article until referenced

  • Some of the later episodes feature electronic effects devised by the fledgling BBC Radiophonic Workshop, many of which were reused by other shows for decades afterward[citation needed].
  • The Goon Show was also famed for its unique library of sound effects.[citation needed]
  • Originally for the first two series the only effect was of a rusty, sinister chain[citation needed];
  • Milligan then went to an already prepared tape recorder and slapped both socks against a table, but was still unable to get the correct effect. He was then heard to cry "Shit!" and storm off, because, as Secombe recounts, "if truth be known, that was really what he wanted the sock to contain.".[citation needed]
  • One of the most side-splitting sound effects was the famous sequence created by the BBC Radiophonic Workshop to represent the sound of Major Bloodnok's digestive system in action, which included a variety of inexplicable gurgling and explosive noises. This effect kept turning up on later comedy shows, and can even be heard on a track by The Orb.[citation needed]
  • Milligan was absent from the show for twelve episodes in the third series after an attempt to murder Peter Sellers with a knife. The story was that he left his house and made for the Sellers household, but Milligan's wife managed to telephone Sellers before Milligan arrived at the door.[citation needed]
  • Sellers could be similarly eccentric. Once, around midnight, he turned up on Milligan's doorstep totally naked. "Can you recommend a good tailor?" he asked.[citation needed]
  • There are rumours that Prince Charles (referred to by Spike Milligan in the years after the goons as 'The Little Grovelling Bastard'), and his wife Camilla Parker Bowles, being both avid fans of the Goons, lovingly refer to each other as 'Fred' and 'Gladys'.[citation needed]
  • In a memorial show for Milligan, Terry Jones recalled that he and the Monty Python team, while trying to think up a new sketch, were confronted by an old man at the door trying to sell them a wheelbarrowful of manure. They took this as a sign from above and made a sketch in which a similar thing happened to an upper class dinner party. Jones was horrified to discover, years later, that Spike Milligan had created an almost identical sketch years before, and had gone to his grave believing that it had been stolen. Jones then apologised to Spike in heaven from the stage.[citation needed]
  • Although Python now seems to be the more quoted, it is fair to say that virtually all British alternative comedy in its modern form is based on the model created for The Goon Show by Milligan.[citation needed]
  • The Goons also had a considerable influence on the humour of The Beatles, and especially the writing of John Lennon. [citation needed]

--AGoon 10:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

One thing that has irked me somewhat, but I kept on forgetting about, is that some items may be copied from The Goon Show Site. That said, some items may have changed enough to make a google search comparison difficult.--Drat (Talk) 10:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


"Some of the later episodes feature electronic effects devised by the fledgling BBC Radiophonic Workshop, many of which were reused by other shows for decades afterward." I don't know whether the effects were radioponic or not, but they were reused for decades afterwards. A note in the script book for The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy says: "The splat of the whale hitting the ground was partially made up from the batter pudding splat from the Goon Show, a fact that might interest people who have seen similarities between the two shows." And from the Doctor Who website: "The famous 'Bloodnok's stomach' sound effect from the BBC radio classic The Goon Show is used in a scene in which the Doctor tries unsuccessfully to reactivate the TARDIS control console." P Ingerson (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Radio

The Infobox Radio was screwed as the Wikipedia:HiddenStructure feature it was using is no longer acceptable so I took a copy of the equiv TV template which had already been updated, and amended the fields to match the old radio template. The upshot is I left in a few extra fields in that template which may be useful.
In our instance of this template I added a list of the producers and narrators (announcers), so the box is now rather large :-(, what do you think? --AGoon 02:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I just found out that Wikipedia:HiddenStructure has been disabled (or shoudl I say "deaded"). --JB82 01:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, it was the disabling of that structure that screwed the template.
I'm now intending to replace template:Infobox Radio with the almost identical template:Infobox Radio Stationtemplate:Infobox Radio Show and replace the template:Infobox Radio with a disambi-whats-it page to choose between template:Infobox Radio Show and template:Infobox Radio Station --AGoon 20:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Duh! Sorry I was talking about replacing it with the Radio Show template not Radio Station template! --AGoon 19:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goon show trivia

Since I read the message on my talk page, I have considered putting the trivia back on to the main article. --JB82 01:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I see you've implimented your hasty retreat, it will be interesting to see whether the deletees notice ;-) --AGoon 03:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

If there's one thing I remember from Goon Show episodes, its that someone would always seem to find an opportunity to say "He's fallen in the water!" somewhere along the line. Noteworthy? Possibly.

[edit] Impact on comedy and culture

This section seems to be full of little bits and pieces about who was influenced by or liked the Goon Show, with the implication that this developed their later contributions to comedy. But is there no article/ reference/ analysis out there that describes the effect that Goon humour had on comedy? --AGoon 19:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The first use of the word Rock?

Unless anyone objects, I'm going to delete the ludicrous statement that "Bloodnok's Rock and Roll Call" was the first British record with the word Rock in the title. Offhand, there's "With My Little Stick of Blackpool Rock", and I'm sure others can come up with dozens more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.162.131.36 (talk) 21:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Well perhaps the first with "rock and roll", but either way doesn't seem to be an important piece of info (perhaps the first in the World to have "rock" (in the sense of "rock and roll") would be noteworthy). --AGoon 10:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this really Goon related?

Removed from influences on comedy & humour section:

===The Who===
[[The Who]]'s first full-length rock opera, [[Tommy]], came about after the idea of a Rock Opera came into the minds of [[Pete Townshend]] and [[Kit Lambert]], after listening to the Goons' comedy song "[[Gratis Amatis]]"<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.thewho.net/articles/townshen/tom_ln.htm |title=LINER NOTES FROM 'TOMMY' REISSUE |accessdate=2006-11-29 |last=Barnes |first=Richard |format=HTML }}</ref>.

Gratis Amatis is described as been sung in 'Goon show voices' but I see no evidence that it was sung by Goons or any other connection. --AGoon 19:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BBC7 no longer broadcasts Goon Shows

Hello,

BBC7 ended it's repeats of Goon Shows some time ago and according to it's Goon page and no next air dates specified. I think the BBC7 external link should be removed and references to BBC7 edited to be past tense. Hope this helps

Kind regards Lee

CORRECTION - BBC7 now appear to be broadcasting Goon Shows - please ignore! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.18.126.156 (talk) 17:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Public Domain?

Surely the earlier episodes are public domain now, being that 50 years since release have passed. Or am I very wrong?--Shadebug 16:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Whether they are in the PD or not, some episodes are being sold that way on eBay. Proteus71 20:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cartman and Bluebottle

There should be a mention that Cartman from South Park's voice is based on Bluebottle. For instance both say Authorata! instead of Authoraty, and when the going gets tough both go home. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Djarra 18:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That's original research without a relible source making that observation, or better yet, word from the creators of South Park.--Drat (Talk) 21:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
No way. The comparison isn't close enough. If indeed Cartman's voice really was (somewhat) based on Bluebottle, it only really needs to be mentioned on the Cartman page --AlbertW 20:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Bentine also wrote for them, didn't he?

[edit] Goon Show Preservation Society

I have just created a stub article for the Goon Show Preservation Society. Regular editors of this article may be able to help expand it. Dbromage 02:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Books by Milligan

Are the following books by Milligan relevant to this article? If so, should they be added to the Bibliography section, or where? They aren't listed in the Spike Milligan article either, as far as I can see.

The Goon Show Scripts, More Goon Show Scripts, Milligan's Ark. GilesW 11:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trimming

This is not a fansite. There is a lot of excess detail that needs trimming. Not every example of some aspect of the show, like time-wasting segments or fourth-wall-breaking, needs to be listed. I have also cleaned up the section about the play Ying Tong: A walk with the goons. It was peppered with personal opinions and the advertising blurb is not needed.--Drat (Talk) 02:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the article badly needs improvement. However, most of your deletions are not improvements. They are deletions of material which brought information and value to the article. Most of those sections should be re-written - not deleted. Mlewan (talk) 06:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to know how having fifteen examples under "Communication with the radio audience" is somehow valuable. The four I left get the point across well enough.--Drat (Talk) 07:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Fifteen examples without explanations are admittedly too much. My point is that it would have been better to add proper explanations than to remove the examples. However, as neither of us seems able or willing to take the time to provide good explanations, it would not be feel right to add the examples back either. Let's leave them out for the time being. Mlewan (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Certainly prose is better than bullet points in these situations. Even then, only a few examples are needed, and it still needs to be backed up with sources such as the Goons' writings/interviews, etc. about the show, as well as third party sources. There are several sections where it is clear no other source has been consulted by the editor(s) except for recordings/transcripts of the show and then that info has been used to write about the nature of the show, which is original analysis.--Drat (Talk) 02:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
An article on The Goon Show certainly ought to be GA-Class and maybe even A-Class. If this article is reorganised to be less of a fan piece and more of a compendium of properly sourced information, it will get there. It's merely OK right now, but there is such a lot of documentation on the show that it should be a lot better. I will start looking for citations, and if I have time I will see if I can clean up the style as well. With regard to sources, it isn't difficult to prove that the Goons were highly influential on both Python and the Beatles, if only because Python and the Beatles said so themselves in their respective collective autobiographies, both of which I own.
The style is particularly bad. It looks like it's been revised by a lot of different people with a lot of different points they wanted to make about the show. I have cleaned up the first paragraph a bit and added a reimprove template to remind us to find proper sources. The Background section is a mess; I have done a temp revision by putting the first paragraph where it obviously should have been all along, namely as the last paragraph, but this is only a stopgap and I will go through it properly when I can. Elsewhere, there is either too little information or too much. Although the quoted bit is funny, I suspect that it violates WP: COPYRIGHT because it's an actual extract from a script. There are resources on the web where you can read entire transcripts of the show, and you can buy recordings of a lot of it; we don't need to provide that stuff here, as it just clutters up the article. We need to strike a balance between giving a flavour of the show and providing a serious article about it. Any thoughts and comments are welcome. Lexo (talk) 22:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)