Talk:The Gambia

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[edit] The Gambia

Sorry, I was wrong: the conventional short form of this country is The Gambia. Any links to Gambia will be redirected here. Mav, thanks for undoing my "damage". --Ed Poor

Could someone explain why it's called 'The Gambia' i've never seen that form before, is it more common ? --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 14:20, 2004 May 15 (UTC)

I suspect it has something to do with the river. We have the same phenomenon for "The Congo". However, I feel strongly that the definite article should be left out in the article title. We don't have The Bahamas, The Netherlands, The Solomon Islands, The United Kingdom etc. Why be inconsistent? -- Jao 09:08, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I thought we did have The Netherlands. -- 68.72.125.15 14:52, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nope. --Iusenospace 23:16, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere that postal services were having a hard time distinguishing between handwritten capital "G" and handwritten capital "Z", making it difficult to direct mail to the right country (Gambia v. Zambia). "The" was thus added to the official short form for The Gambia in order to emphasize the distinction. I don't have a source for this on hand, unfortunately, so it may well be an apocryphal story but I'll keep checking--maybe someone at the Universal Postal Union can verify?

I had a Gambian roommate once who said he would often get mail from Zambia. I guess that Africa uses a pan-African postal system to deliver mail? But yes, apparently Zambia and the Gambia often have problems with confused postal delivery. I don't think the official name of the country was changed for that reason - I think "The Gambia" is a reference to the Gambia River. And yes, in the United states the rivers are usually "the Mississippi," "the Ohio," and "the Missouri," but the states are known as Mississippi, Ohio, and Missouri, respectfully. It's the reverse of this convention. Which just goes to show you just how screwy English is. Midtempo-abg (talk) 18:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I use the "The" whenever grammatically appropriate in an effort to give little Gambia whatever distinction it can possibly have. Besides, it sounds romantic and grand!

I'd be interested to know why the "The" is still used here, whereas with countries such as Sudan or Ukraine it sounds outdated or colonialistic. But it seems to be the convention (on the CIA World Factbook, for example), so we might as well use it. Lesgles (talk) 05:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, this place I live in is called THE Netherlands. the official name is "Het Koninkrijk Der Nederlanden" which translates nicely into "The Kingdom Of The Netherlands". BTW, I can't see how someone would not be able to distinguish between a capital 'Z' or 'G'

It may be correct to call it "The Gambia," but is it correct to then capitalize the "The" midsentence? It sure looks wrong. Battlekow 22:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Most people always ask why we use the article "the" before "Gambia". This is because The country 'Gambia" is named after the river "Gambia". To differentiate the country and the river, "The is always put before "Gambia" to represent the country. When you write only Gambia, it refers to the river. This is rarely noticeable now because people are now used to the name Gambia being used to refer to the country instaed of the river.

That's interesting, because at least in the United States, the distinction is the opposite, that is, I live in Missouri, which is named for the Missouri (River). Oh and as the article says, "commonly known as Gambia", I think this really needs to be moved to simply Gambia. --Xyzzyva 06:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"The Gambia" (with definite article) is the conventional name of the country, according to the CIA Factbook [1], and the United Nations [2]. So yes, it's correct to capitalize "The" in midsentence, even though it looks as odd as that stupid exclamation mark on Yahoo! or miscapitalized names like eBay. - DavidWBrooks

Although I just noticed this in the UN site [3] - alisting of members that gives the address for "Permanent Representative of the Gambia to the United Nations" with lower-case "the" ... and to confuse us further, it's listed under just "Gambia" without any article at all. And it's just "Gambia" on the UN list of member states [4]. Oh, dear - just when I thought this was settled. - DavidWBrooks 16:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This "official" tourist site calls it The Gamiba [5], but this official site sometimes writes it the Gambia [6] and sometimes The Gambia [7]. Oof. - DavidWBrooks 16:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe just call it A Gambia. 65.24.249.74 22:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map is of Gabon..

The map given is of the Gabon, for some strange reason. Not sure about copyright system and what maps could be used, but a correct one should be found.

This seems to have been resolved. ¦ Reisio 14:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Language

are all those languages offical or just English? Fabhcún 20:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

CIA WFB claims only English is [8] ¦ Reisio 14:14, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alex Haley

I removed the line about Alex Haley - while I'm sure he'd appreciate the coverage, this sentence is about him, not about the Gambia. Hughcharlesparker 11:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copied content

The entire section on economics seems to be lifted from here: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5459.htm

Not sure what the legality on that is... --71.1.141.95 00:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Copyright Here is the info, so apparently there is no coptright for this information, though some areas may not be accurate. Enlil Ninlil 00:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Everyone loves the Gambia

According to "sights and sounds" on CNN, that is. --NEMT 00:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have a link to an online clip of that CNN promo? adambisset 16:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subdivisions -or- Divisions

This article is not consistent. Click on the "Districts" link and article titled Subdivisions of The Gambia. Subdivisions should be a smaller unit than divisions? There are not synonoms, right? What do the Gambian people use?--SirYoda 05:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The divisions are subdivided into 37 districts. So there are districts but how mant in each division? Enlil Ninlil 06:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be 5 divisions which are them divided into 37 districts. It just confusing that the Subdivisions of The Gambia article's name use the term "Subdivision" since you would that means "list of districts" (by definition Subdivision are smaller than division, right?) --SirYoda 02:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a good idea, change it and tell me when ur done mate. Enlil Ninlil 05:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily going into this discussion, as it's probably better run by more knowledgeable people, but I'm giving you a link to ponder: Talk:Country subdivision#A subdivision is not necessarily a sub-unit to a division -- Jao 07:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, after looking at this discussion and other countries it looks like we standardized on the generic term "Subdivisions" for States, Provinces, etc. for this type of article. I thought it was a typo of Division. It makes sense now so the articles across countries are consistent. --SirYoda 17:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed after all of this time how confusing this became - the redirects were all pointing at the Districts page. The Gambia is divided into divisions and subdivided into districts. Thus, it is proper to retain the Divisions of The Gambia page and also the Districts of The Gambia page. I have restored the divisions page to its proper form. Rarelibra 04:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too many pictures

Is it just me, or does this page has a slight overabundance of pictures? Alr 21:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think there should be more pictures, considering not many people have been there or no what it is like. The more the merrier.

[edit] When was Kombo St.Mary's Division created/split off from the Western Division?

yellow:Kombo red:Banjul all:Greater Banjul Area

Re: The Gambia#Administrative Divisions

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kombo+St.Mary%27s+division%22

I do notice a number of districts named Kombo on the picture at Western Division (The Gambia). TransUtopian 15:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Kombo St.Mary's Division is an another name for greater banjul area. --Atamari 16:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

So is it an official administrative division or an informal designation for Greater Banjul? TransUtopian 17:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

some information can you get from this site: http://www.statoids.com/ugm.html and the german wikipedia --Atamari 19:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Atamari. I integrated it as best I could into the section. I can't read German, but I read the Statoids page and got a cite for the 5 admin divisions. TransUtopian 20:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It exist two system:

a) the older system LGA (local goverment area) (8 incl Banjul)

b) division (6 incl Banjul as Greater Banjul Area)

see also de:Vorlage:Navigationsleiste Divisionen Gambias --Atamari 23:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC) this informatio on this websit can be very helpful for anyone doing reasch lol peace

[edit] Economy

Quot.: "The UK and other EU countries constitute The Gambia's major domestic export markets, accounting for 86% in total; followed by Asia at 14%; and the African subregion, including Senegal, Guinea-Bissau, and Ghana at 8%." The result is 108% of the export markets. Can anybody verify the figures, please? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.73.234.74 (talk • contribs) 19:43, 5 November 2006.

The article says that the GNP pro capita is 2002 US dollars, but in every other source I find an estimate for 2001 of 302.7 US dollars. An incredible gap. Can anyone verify this figure? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.208.83.243 (talk • contribs) 12:17, 21 May 2007.

If you have a source for a figure, and the figure in the article is unsourced, then be bold, and go ahead and change it. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 14:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsubstantiated Claim

Quote: "Reporters Without Borders has accused "President Yahya Jammeh’s police state" of using murder, arson, unlawful arrest and death threats against journalists, but it is simply speculation." -- "but it is only speculation" is an unsubstantiated judgment inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. Who is saying Gambia is not a police state and why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.237.6.178 (talk) 00:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Jawara: President or PM?

The article refers to Jawara as both president and prime minister. Which was he? The passage that refers to him as PM also refers to him as head of state, which would make him president (a PM is head of government, not state), but it is still unclear to me. Was he PM before The Gambia became a republic. If so, when did he become president and how? By election, by appointment? Mrrhum 21:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Jawara was PM before Gambia became a republic, when it was a commonwealth realm. Then he became president when it became a republic in 1971. I don't know what the procedure was - most likely he was elected by parliament. john k 21:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

See: 24 April 1970 Plebiscite ”Declaration of the Republic” --Atamari 00:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

"the attitude of the locals towards Westerners is quite different to that of the natives living more inland." - This is not very informative. What is the attitude of the locals? What is the attitude of the inland natives?

This would suggest everyone's love for the gambia is unrequited. --NEMT 06:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National Bird

Does The Gambia have a national bird? I'm working on improving the country's bird list, and would like to be able to indicate which species is the national bird, if there is one! MeegsC | Talk 16:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Area size discrepancy

Both the figure for the country's area and its rank is different in the infobox and in the list List of countries and outlying territories by total area. __meco 08:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Press freedom

I don't want to plunge into editing this article, because I am sure that many people working on it know far more than I about it, but I did want to draw people's attention to an interesting and well-written article discussing some of the recent press censorship in the Gambia (and sorting out, to some extent, how it has affected various specific newspapers). Someone may want to get hold of this and use it:

Dawn Starin, "Dancing Lessons from God", Index on Censorship, Volume 36, Number 3, 2007, p. 207–214.

- Jmabel | Talk 18:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Reasoning for the proposed move

Right off the bat, I'd like to state that:

Yes, I know that this case is listed as a specific example in the WP naming conventions; I'm asking that the premise that this is based on be discussed, however, so I don't think it's useful to reference this as authority for the purposes of this discussion.
I don't disagree that it is proper to refer to "the Gambia" when writing about the country. My only concern here is why the WP article name includes the article.

So why move?

I see this as being somewhat analogous to "the Netherlands", where the article is currently at Netherlands. You would never write "Netherlands" without the article, but that doesn't mean the article should be at The Netherlands.
We should be using the most commonly-used name. A simple study of the google hits is revealing:

there are approximately 92 million ghits for "Gambia", which includes all uses, including those with the article
there are approximately 9 million ghits for "the Gambia" or "The Gambia".
this means there are approximately 83 million uses of "Gambia" without the article (92 million subtract 9 million = 83 million)
therefore, in terms of ghits, uses of "Gambia" without the article outweigh uses of "the Gambia" 83 million to 9 million, or by a factor of about 9 times.

For these reasons, I think the article should be moved to Gambia. — Snocrates 00:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Voting / Discussion

[edit] In favour

Support I have never heard anybody call it "The Gambia" (to me, it would be like saying "The Japan" or "The Australia"), and a Google search seems to support"Gambia" being far more common. TJ Spyke 01:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Support per nominator's Netherlands argument and the spirit of the naming conventions. When someone starts saying things like "Yesterday, three The Gambian citizens were awarded gold medals" I might change my mind. — AjaxSmack 04:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

In contrast to the number of times you read "three Netherlandian citizens were awarded gold medals"? National adjectives don't really tell us how the nation is named, IMHO. WotherspoonSmith (talk) 13:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

True, adjective forms differ. I was trying to show that the article is dispensible but it was a bit of a red herring. Perhaps this part of WP:NCD might clarify things: "If a word without a definite article would have a general meaning, while the same word has a specific and identifiable meaning, understood by all, if adding the article, and if there is justification to have separate articles for both meanings, the specific meaning can be explained on a separate page, with a page title including the article." Gambia and The Gambia are the same thing and contemporary English usage eschews using articles with topnyms (e.g., The Ukraine, The Crimea). A counter example would be pentagon and The Pentagon where addition of the article creates a different meaning. — AjaxSmack 18:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Opposed

Oppose - pointless exercise in subjective hair-splitting. Nobody is confused or unable to find the article now. Let's spend out time doing something useful. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

If you think the exercise is pointless, then you'd have no objective if the article were renamed, then, because still no confusion would result and people could still find the article? Some of us care about formatting on WP, and I'd like to hear from those who do, accompanied with some substantive reasoning. Snocrates 00:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting method to encourage responses to your query. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, I want discussion on the merits. If someone thinks the whole issue is "pointless" or not a "useful" use of time, well, that's great, but probably not exactly what is helpful in gaining consensus on article name formatting. Snocrates 00:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Also seriously, calling something "pointless" is a discussion about the merits. The proposal has no point, in my opinion - ergo, don't do it. You asked for opinions from the community, as is proper, and this is one of them. No need to immediately go into refutation mode if you disagree. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No, a substantive discussion on the merits involves providing reasons why either the name should appear as "The Gambia" or why the name should appear as "Gambia". To argue that the entire discussion is "pointless" or a waste of time tells us you oppose the change, but it doesn't tell us why "The Gambia" is preferable. I'm not in "refutation mode", whatever that is, I just want to see some quality reasoning on both sides. This proposal is part of a larger effort to gain some naming convention consensus that can spill over into other areas, such as standardizing the names of the relevant categories, so I really don't have that much invested in whether it fails or succeeds; it's the process and the supporting arguments I am interested in. If you have none, that's fine too. Snocrates 00:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. The country's official short name is "The Gambia" and its official description is "Republic of The Gambia" — note the capital 'T'. Most major atlases and encyclopaedias also call this country "The Gambia", such as Doubleday's Atlas of the World, Britannica^[9], Encarta^[10], etc. Besides calling it "Gambia" just wouldn't have the same ring to it. – Axman (☏) 13:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not required to adhere to countries' official names (e.g., Burma, South Korea, East Timor) and, while it's nice for article titles to ring, it's not a necessity. — AjaxSmack 04:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, there are print sources that use "The Gambia", but just as many can be found that use "Gambia". We're not going to find the answer looking in an atlas. The google hits test gives a far more global measure of usage than cherry-picking a few atlases or other sources. Snocrates 06:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose as per Axman's reasoning (other than the '"nice ring" bit!) and DavidWBrooks observations. A count of Google hits not a way to decide things. It is a way of imposing a US/ Western bias, if anything (think aliminum/ aluminium), and is exaggerated by the use of the word in other uses than the national name (Gambia taxis, the river Gambia, Gambian recipes etc). Using the proposers logic, we should also rename "Mediterranean Sea" (4million ghits) with "Mediterranean" (47 million ghits). We might not be required to adhere to countries' official names, but it is correct and respectful to do so. I don't consider it "cherry picking" to know the official title, but go instead for the most popular (mis)use of a term, or one which complies with a Wikipedian general ~~rule~~principle.WotherspoonSmith (talk) 13:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Lol -- I am neither American nor do I consider myself "Western" and I'm definitely not trying to "impose" anything, as I have stated above. You may not consider it cherry picking to pull out a few examples that comply with a certain opinion, but that's generally what it's called. I also question whether "The Gambia" is the "official name" in all contexts. For example, the official UN list of member states simply uses "Gambia". (Yes, I know, it's a cherry pick, but I'm showing it as one example to counter the impression being given that "The Gambia" is somehow "official".) This is the same list that uses such "official" names as "United Republic of Tanzania"; "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"; "Russian Federation"; "Lao People's Democratic Republic"; and others. Doesn't seem like the Gamibia is too concerned about getting the article in the name at the UN, at least, so I don't think this is an issue of "respect". Finally, I would point out that there is no consensus on whether to use Mediterranean or Mediterranean Sea. The article uses the "sea" designation, but many of the associated categories that refer to the sea omit the word "sea". Snocrates 01:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Apologies if my comments appeared to be accusing you, personally, of trying to impose a US or Western bias. I was referring to the dubious practice of counting google hits as a way of 1. "giving a far more global measure of usage" or, more importantly, saying which is the correct term for an encyclopaedia to use.WotherspoonSmith (talk) 02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Understood, and thank you. I apologise for misinterpreting what you said. Snocrates 03:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - As far as I know, 'The Gambia' is the common name. It is always known as The Gambia, on for example the BBC. EJF (talk) 16:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

More comment - I voted oppose above, so this isn't another vote. With all this interesting debate (you're right, Snocrates - discussing it is more interesting than dismissing it) local usage should hold sway. Alas, it appears unlikely we'll hear opinions from people living in The Gambia; I spent two days as a tourist there 20 years ago and don't really remember which was used by people on the street. A check of the AllAfrica news service, based in the continent, find both usages, sometimes even in a single story ([11]). Since there is no single rule about naming all countries' articles due to the complexity of issues (Ivory Coast - in French or in English?), and there appears to be no compelling argument either way in this case, I still think we should not switch the article but leave it with the official name. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose per Axman and discussion at top of page. There seems to be enough "encyclopaedic" coverage calling it The Gambia like Britannica and CIA Factbook. Zuiver jo (talk) 22:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Poll on name formatting

As a question related to the requested move discussion directly above, I present the following issue for discussion and would like to do so in "poll" fashion.

When using the name of the country somewhere other than the beginning of a sentence, should we use capital-T "The Gambia" or small-t "the Gambia" ?
- E.g. : Is it "Bob Smith took a trip to The Gambia." or "Bob Smith took a trip to the Gambia." ?
This could also related to categories. E.g., should it be Category:Foo in The Gambia or Category:Foo in the Gambia ?

Thanks for participating. Snocrates 00:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "The Gambia"

– Axman (☏) 13:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- DavidWBrooks (talk) 14:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- WotherspoonSmith (talk) 15:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Enlil Ninlil (talk) 07:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC) it is a proper noun, not a common noun.
- Managerpants (talk) 13:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "the Gambia"

87.114.14.235 (talk) 15:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC) (British newspaper title convention is "The Times/Guardian" and yet it is good editorial style often to say "this article appeared in the Times")

[edit] Related discussion