Talk:The Firebird
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[edit] Tschaikovsky vs. Tchaikovsky
It is NYCB practice since the days of Balanchine to spell the composer's name as "Tschaikovsky". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertgreer (talk • contribs) 22:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
- Are you sure about that? There are two transliterations commonly used in English-language contexts. One is from French, "Tchaikovsky", the other from German, "Tschaikowsky". Each is internally consistent, based on orthographical standards of those two languages. The one you say has been used by the New York City Ballet would be a cross between the two.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- You are right about the eccentricity of City Ballet's orthography vs. the accepted transliterations — the French best reflects the pronunciation of Чайковский (I had three years of Russian in high school and spent my first two years of college living off-campus in "Russian House" before giving myself over to Scandinavian studies.) But Balanchine studied in St. Petersburg, had his own ideas about the proper English spelling of the composer's name — among many other things — and who am I to argue with Mr. B.! He was Georgian by birth, not Russian, and it may be that he pronounced "Tchaikovsky" with more sibilance than would have been the case of a Muscovite (this is idle speculation on my part.) If one "Googles" Tschaikovsky, Tchaikovsky and Tschaikowsky on site:NYCBallet.com one finds 237, 27 and zero hits, respectively; versus 127,000, 6,500,000 and 908,000 if one "Googles" the Internet at large, so the French "Tchaikovsky" is dominant. But NYCB programs always, and I do mean always, spell it "Tschaikovsky". Robert Greer (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- How very interesting. I would have thought that any Russian would have strongly preferred the French transliteration, full stop. As to the better reflection of the Russian pronunciation, that depends entirely on the linguistic orientation of the reader, of course, but I must presume you mean to an English speaker. (Italians variously use Ciacovschi, Ciajcovschij, etc., and the Italian Wikipedia somewhat idiosyncratically gives Čajkovskij; Hungarian transliterates as Csajkovszkij; Dutch as Tsjaikovski, etc.) The Library of Congress once decreed that the preferred English transliteration should be Chaikovskii, and this is still consistently used for most other bearers of this surname, but tradition won out in the case of the composer. What I do not understand is what bearing this has on the present article—or was there once something pertinent that has in the meantime been removed?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I was referring to readers of English Wikipedia who are native speakers of English and have no Russian. The problem with the German spelling is that most Americans do not pronounce Volkswagen correctly; think what they'd do with Tschaikowsky! The Cyrillic letter Ч is officially transliterated as CH, but it is anatomically impossible to pronounce CH without preceeding it with a T (the result will be SH instead; and this is true whether the CH is at the beginning, in the middle, or at the end of an utterance.) English orthography does not require (or allow) TCH at the begining of a word but does in the middle or at the end (it's necessary of course to spell it with TCH in French.) Robert Greer (talk) 20:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- How very interesting. I would have thought that any Russian would have strongly preferred the French transliteration, full stop. As to the better reflection of the Russian pronunciation, that depends entirely on the linguistic orientation of the reader, of course, but I must presume you mean to an English speaker. (Italians variously use Ciacovschi, Ciajcovschij, etc., and the Italian Wikipedia somewhat idiosyncratically gives Čajkovskij; Hungarian transliterates as Csajkovszkij; Dutch as Tsjaikovski, etc.) The Library of Congress once decreed that the preferred English transliteration should be Chaikovskii, and this is still consistently used for most other bearers of this surname, but tradition won out in the case of the composer. What I do not understand is what bearing this has on the present article—or was there once something pertinent that has in the meantime been removed?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- You are right about the eccentricity of City Ballet's orthography vs. the accepted transliterations — the French best reflects the pronunciation of Чайковский (I had three years of Russian in high school and spent my first two years of college living off-campus in "Russian House" before giving myself over to Scandinavian studies.) But Balanchine studied in St. Petersburg, had his own ideas about the proper English spelling of the composer's name — among many other things — and who am I to argue with Mr. B.! He was Georgian by birth, not Russian, and it may be that he pronounced "Tchaikovsky" with more sibilance than would have been the case of a Muscovite (this is idle speculation on my part.) If one "Googles" Tschaikovsky, Tchaikovsky and Tschaikowsky on site:NYCBallet.com one finds 237, 27 and zero hits, respectively; versus 127,000, 6,500,000 and 908,000 if one "Googles" the Internet at large, so the French "Tchaikovsky" is dominant. But NYCB programs always, and I do mean always, spell it "Tschaikovsky". Robert Greer (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Tschaikovsky vs. Tchaikovsky
How should the name of the composer of the music for “Serenade” be spelled? Most Westerners now spell it Tchaikovsky, but City Ballet took up, during Balanchine’s lifetime, the spelling Tschaikovsky. Why? Because that’s how the composer spelled it when he was in New York in 1891. (My thanks to the reader who sent me a copy of his Carnegie Hall autograph from the Pierpont Morgan Library.)
- — Robert Greer (talk) 20:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
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