Talk:The Fall (novel)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was see Anthony Appleyard's decision at the bottom, per the discussion below. I'm just noting the admin closure, not closing it myself. Dekimasuよ! 10:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

The Fall (band) are much more popular than the book - I guess a large majority of people will be searching for the band The Fall rather than the book. So I propose we move The Fall to The Fall (Camus novel) (or similar) and The Fall (band) to The Fall. SaltyWater 22:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd agree with that. There's also the odd incoming link that should be pointing at The Fall of Man. (I would suggest moving the novel to La Chute, but that would seem to violate WP:UE, so The Fall (novel) would be my choice.) Flowerparty☀ 22:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a terrible idea. Camus' great literary work is much more important than a band whose legacy, I'm sure, will be much more short lived than this novel.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.246.234.24 (talk • contribs)

I agree that its a bad idea. The band named themselves after the book. (Don't get me wrong, the Fall is one of my favorite punk bands).User:JeffKaos71

I disagree as well, on the aforementioned grounds that a) the book is more notable (at least to learned people -- even ones who like the band), b) the band is named after the book, and policy generally dictates that the original be granted the priority article name. 66.229.160.94 02:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I also have a serious problem with this proposal, or rather, the current situation, and for the same reasons mentioned above. Additionally, it seems to go against WP's naming conventions. However, the folks at the article for the band seem to disagree, and I'm not sure how we're to resolve the situation. --Todeswalzer | Talk 04:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Eventhough the fall (the novel) may seem less popular than the band ,but i suggest that wikipedia should unequivocally direct the search to this novel.a narration of the personalities of the whole population,this book has nothing to do with any particular person ,but as camus has pointed out ,is a mirror that reflects the image of whoever looks in. In a view of writing the synopsis myself,i had studied this novel some 5 times ,but only discovered that it has already been written,wouldn't it be better if the synopsis was shortened? as for the band is concerned,there are may be 1 million bands in the world and wikipedia cannot provide spaces to all of them however their names may be appealing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.165.120 (talk • contribs)

It seems someone has gone ahead and changed The Fall to The Fall (novel). Can we get this reverted back, due to the arguments presented above? Daqenue 02:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rationale

I propose moving this page back to where it was originally at The Fall, and moving the page discussing the band back to The Fall (band). The band itself is named after Camus' novel, and so common sense alone seems to provide ample justification for keeping the original -- the novel -- with the unqualified title of "The Fall" and then qualifying the title of the article discussing the band, i.e. "The Fall (band)", which was inspired by it. However, there are also other good reasons for doing this: google tests for " 'The Fall' and 'Mark Smith' " and " 'The Fall' and 'Mark E Smith' " (making use of the name of the band's frontman) return 50,200 and 151,000 results respectively. Note that I've used quotations around "Mark Smith" and "Mark E Smith" since these names are extremely common in English. A google test for " 'The Fall' Camus " returns 290,000. (Concerns for for worldwide views also compel me to note that, although Camus' google test is restricted to only the English language as per Wikipedia's conventions, it would also have significantly more results if the original French were taken into consideration; the band, being natively English, is not likely to have more results in any other language than it does in English.) Finally, the articles' respective wiki projects rate the band at "High Importance" and Camus' novel at "Top Importance". --Todeswalzer|Talk 14:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

A number of comments have been made previous to this proposal. You may want to review them at Talk:The Fall (novel) and Talk:The Fall before posting below. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Todeswalzer (talk • contribs) 15:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Comment — in this instance, neither article is clearly the primary topic (despite, and shown by, claims on either side), so the only sensible solution is to move the band to The Fall (band) and keep the novel at The Fall (novel), with The Fall being a disambiguation page between the two. --Stemonitis 14:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Mild oppose. The case could be made indeed for the novel to be the "primary", but, honestly, 1) The band comes to my mind first 2) Well, it could be seen as our "systemic bias" towards popular culture, which, more importantly: 3) resulted in a vast number of incoming links for the band, some 300-odd, which would have to be fixed. I think it's the case of "don't fix if ain't broken". And I think the Stemonitis's proposal is a bad cure: 2-item dab pages are A Bad Thing, and as result nobody will arrive at the desired page immediately (with the current situation, at least 50% would). Not worth the hussle, really. (And, as for "worldwide view", I'm not a native English speaker, and I like both the band and the novel.)Duja► 15:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Our decisions should not be based on what is convenient for the editors. Wikipedia is written for the readers, so it doesn't matter how many incoming links we have to change to get it right. Being sent to a disambiguation page isn't half as bad as being sent to an entirely inappropriate article. This is also the only solution that would put an end to the squabbling between fans of the band and fans of Camus about which is the primary topic, which can never be resolved. It would also not be a two-point disambiguation, because there would be links to all sorts of other things — see Fall (disambiguation). --Stemonitis 15:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

But the "representative sample" of our readers is likely not too much different from the sample of our editors: the band will likely "win" by a margin. I do accept the argument that the novel is older and used as eponym for the band as valid, but then what? I'm not against making both articles with dab'bed title, just, in this case, redirect The Fall to Fall (and, btw, Fall (disambiguation) should be moved to Fall; I gotta run right now). Just, IMO, the band is the more likely search target than the novel. I find the actual situation acceptable enough. Duja► 15:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Can't see the point. The disambig link to the novel and the Fall disambig page at the top of The Fall should solve the problem for anyone who is looking for the novel, etc.. At least at the moment, most people (I would have thought) would get the article they want first time by typing "The Fall". If The Fall was changed to a disambig page, nobody would go straight to the article they wanted. The novel is also fairly well known (amongst English speakers) as "La Chute" (which is surely the primary title of the novel?) - not sure really why we need an 'English title'. "Das Kapital" can be found at Das Kapital rather than at Capital, after all.--Michig 16:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• According to Google results, the English title The Fall is the most common use by nearly a 4:1 majority. Crazysuit 00:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose If the novel gets 290,000 hits and the band gets 201,200 then that shows there's no obvious primary use of the term, even if the 80,400 hits for the original French "La Chute" + Camus are added, that's not a clear enough majority. Also, there is no "common sense" assumption that if a band take their name from another work, then the work itself is regarded as the primary use. There are many instances of this, Velvet Underground, for example. Crazysuit 00:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support, for the reasons stated above, which have not really been responded to in this discussion. Some of those who are opposing the move are doing so apparently on the mere assumption that "the band is more popular" -- but this hasn't been demonstrated at all. In fact, it seems to be contradicted by the google results which show the novel returning about 3:2 hits over the band. But even if we accept that there is "no clear majority", it still makes sense to me to defer to the novel since it was the original namesake. At the very least I think The Fall should redirect to a disambiguation page, as per Stemonitis' suggestion, since I don't see any reason for maintaining the status quo. --Todeswalzer|Talk 01:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Not only are the google results misleading (the band is often mentioned without specific mention of MES), but they're pretty close as they are. I also agree with Duja - the pages are fine as they are and switching things is solving a problem that doesn't exist. I also find the argument re: the band being named after the book unpersuasive. Bartleby 03:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - this is nothing more than cultural snobbery. The fact that the book came first is irrelevent as the situation regading The Velvet Underground has already shown. In response to Stemonitis, on Google, a search for "The Fall" Camus gives 286,000 results [1]. A search for "The Fall" Mark E Smith gives 1,230,000 [2]. Ac@osr 17:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Ac@osr, I would advise you to please read the rationale above for this proposal instead of simply dismissing it out of hand. Had you actually read it, you would have realized that I explcitly stated the importance of quotation marks around "Mark Smith" or "Mark E Smith" since these are extremely common names in English. (Observe what happens when the quotation marks are omitted on a search for "The Fall Camus": 986,000 results.) You would also have realized that I'm only advocating that the novel be given priority in cases where it is not obvious which article most people will be looking for; the example given of (The) Velvet Underground is not such a case.

As a related point, I don't think any of the editors on this page -- regardless of their position on this matter -- appreciate your assumption of bad faith in labelling this as "nothing more than cultural snobbery". (Please review these Wikipedia guidelines.) These kinds of comments are unhelpful and unconstructive. --Todeswalzer|Talk 20:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'll apologise for that. The assertion was based on the previous discussion on the talk page at the group's article rather than the content here and should not have been automatically transferred.

As yet, the only real argument that's been put forward in favour of the book is that it came first which is hardly persuasive. The group took no inspiration from the novel, just its title (actually their second choice, although their initial suggestion of The Outsiders would have brought up the same problem! - as an aside, the group's Camus reader, Tony Friel, left at the end of 1977, a full year before their debut album was recorded so the group cannot be said to be in hock to Camus). There are many articles related to the group, including entries for all 26 of their studio albums, individual articles for around 12 members and former members and around 10 other albums deemed of sufficient merit and unsettling all of these is an unnecessary inconvenience, especially as neither group nor book are known to the public at large. In addition, Mark E. Smith has made public a standing objection to The Fall being described as a "band" and always uses the word "group" so "The Fall (band)" would be offensive to the principle of the article's subject. Of course, if Wikipedia wasn't so culturally imperialistic, the novel's article would be called La Chute, and there wouldn't be a problem.....Ac@osr 21:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Ac@osr, I appreciate your apology and would just like to reaffirm that I'm not trying to dispute the worthiness of having Wikipedia articles discussing the band and its works: I think it's self-evident that it belongs here. What isn't self-evident is that it should take priority over Camus' novel. Excluding the claim that the band is more popular -- which has not been demonstrated at all -- there really have only been two arguments thus far advanced for maintaining the status quo: 1. It's the status quo; and 2. It's easier not to change anything. I don't find these arguments to be especially pursuasive either. I would also take issue with your point above that placing the band at "The Fall (band)" would misrepresent them: They can call themselves whatever they want, but for our purposes here they are a band, and we need to classify them as such in order to maintain a basic level of consistency. A similar situation arises with Richard Wagner's operatic compositions. He maintained his whole life that his works should be classified as "music dramas" and not as operas; but we've listed them on Wikipedia as operas anyway (see Siegfried (opera)).

It is still my opinion that, given the relative obscurity of both in the minds of the general public, the novel should take precedence by virtue of the fact that it had the name first. However, given the evident contentiousness of my proposal, I think it would be reasonable to set The Fall as the disambiguation page and have the two articles at The Fall (novel) and The Fall (band). (I'll revise my proposal if necessary.) I really don't see why this should be a problem. --Todeswalzer|Talk 18:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The only thing I would add is this: the novel is just one of several works by Camus whereas the group has brought forward around 80 full-length works (around 35-40 of which are considered canonical). For me, the suggestion that a single work by one creative entity should take precedence over the entire works of another just because it came first doesn't really hold. As we've agreed, most Wikipedia users are likely to consider The Fall to be that thing that happens straight after The Summer so the disambiguation you propose would be reasonable but I still consider it unnecessary. Ac@osr 20:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support, for Todeswalzer's reasons. There isn't anything new I could contribute to the argument at this point. I wouldn't mind compromising and having a disambiguation page. Daqenue 23:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• Compromise. Make The Fall a disambig page. And it wouldn't be a two-item list, what with The Fall of Man and the others listed on Fall (disambiguation). Bolivian Unicyclist 02:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I think a compromise as you suggest it is clearly the worst option of all. It should always be preferable to have a default page, especially in a case where the disambig page would only list two items. A tag at the top can easily take care of any issues, once we decide which page The Fall should default to. Bartleby 01:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I think we disagree on this point because I don't share your dislike for disambig pages, and because (as evidence here shows) there's disagreement as to whether either the band or the novel meet the "primary meaning" criteria on WP:DAB. And, again, there are currently seven items under "The Fall" on Fall:

• The Fall of Man, a Jewish and Christian doctrine of man's rebellion against his creator, God, bringing God's condemnation on himself, as described in the story of Adam and Eve
• The Fall, a prolific British rock band
• The Fall (novel), the third novel written by French writer Albert Camus
• The Fall (Garth Nix novel), the first novel in The Seventh Tower series
• The Fall is also used to refer to the sudden devastation of the Eldar race in the Warhammer 40,000 Universe
• The Fall, a single by Industrial Metal band Ministry
• CHERUB: The Fall, is the seventh book in the CHERUB series written by Robert Muchamore

That's three items of major cultural significance, plus another four that need to be listed (although perhaps the Warhammer entry is pushing the rules for inclusion, at least in that section). Picking one from the list doesn't seem terribly neutral; in such cases, dab pages help uphold NPOV. Bolivian Unicyclist 17:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Only two of those are large subjects with the name "The Fall." My point was that creating a disambig page to avoid deciding which page should be The Fall is counter-productive and undesirable. Bartleby 05:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually there are three: the song, the band, and the novel. In addition, the top entry (about the Adam and Eve story) is often referred to by that phrase. Dekimasuよ! 07:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support creation of disambiguation page and move of The Fall to The Fall (band) per Bolivian Unicyclist. There is no obvious primary topic for "The Fall" and there are several possible targets, so this is a very reasonable solution. Dekimasuよ! 03:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Closure of discussion

• I left The Fall (novel) and The Fall (about the band) where they were. The Fall has a head disambig link to Fall (disambiguation)#The Fall, which lists several things called The Fall. Anthony Appleyard 11:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• See in Talk:The Fall (band) for more discussion on this subject. Anthony Appleyard 10:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.