Talk:The Dillinger Escape Plan

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[edit] Jeff Tuttle

Can anyone provide a source saying Jeff Tuttle is in the band? I've never heard of him. MrHate 10:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

www.myspace.com/dillingerescapeplan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noneofthemknew (talk • contribs) 13:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DEP Image

The sidebar on the right has an image of five people, but the caption only lists four names. Could someone remedy this?

They have a new image in an interview but I don't know how to add images. However, here is the link. It shows Ben, Greg, and Liam but no image of Jeff or Gil but at least it is a recent photo of them. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1564675/20070712/dillinger_escape_plan.jhtml Suffor 21:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The image is owned by Relapse Records. You'll need to sort out the license and ownership first. We cannot unfortunately add any image to Wikipedia just because it exists. The KZA 00:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DEP as MCR

In this interview with fans, someone mentioned they'd heard about a set Dillinger did where they dressed up as the boys from My Chemical Romance, and asked for pictures of it. Greg said he didn't know if any existed, but at some point in time, Dillinger were on Fuse's "Steven's Rock Show", or whatever it's called, doing an interview, and for the last portion of it they donned their MCR costumes. It's very possible someone could've screencapped it. Does any one have any screens? —Jeff 20:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

If verifiable, this would be a nice addition to the Trivia section. —Bvoppen 19:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tech metal and mathcore...

In Belgium, the band is to be said as an arhythmical hardcore band or converge...Stephan KŒNIG 10:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not hardcore —Dexter prog 15:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

They are not hardcore, you're right, but this band has notable hardcore punk influences, i.e. the screaming which is a singing style common in hardcore punk. The more emo singing on Miss Machine is also an example of their punk roots. (emo is a genre derived from punk). Listen to the earliest records and you'll notice they sound more hardcore than they do now.

The tags found on Last.fm are (not a good source but it is an indication): experimental grindcore hardcore mathcore metal metalcore rock seen live. Mostly 'core' genres.

I'll change math metal into mathcore.

For more proof of their hardcore roots you could read their bio http://shop.relapse.com/artist/artist.aspx?ArtistID=10030

thank you

Emmaneul 13:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. Someone eventually will give his/her reasons and change it to math metal again, and then someone else will change back to mathcore, and so on... Leobarudi 06:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

But it's a fact they are greatly influenced by hardcore. DEP started out as an hardcore band, they look like hardcore guys, They sound harsh and out of control... (more so on CI than MM) hardcore is all over this band. The only thing metal and DEP have in common is distorted guitar. But you're probably right... Emmaneul 20:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

TDEP started out as.. well what they are now. They were however, a reincarnation of the hardcore band Arcane. That aside, hardcore (punk) is fast, simple music. The whole point of hardcore is to be simple, loud, fast, and not give a fuck. TDEP's riffing style has more in common with thrash metal (the progressive kind, actually, if you'd listen to Dark Angel's last album you'd notice, you can also sorta hear some similarities with Watchtower) and death metal, with lots of dissonance, jazz and bossa nova influences thrown in. And let's not forget about the shredding and sweeping. Their drummer plays everything under the sun. Simply put, it doesn't make sense to call them "hardcore" and everyone I know that's serious about hardcore punk hates it when people call them "hardcore", including myself. If you listen to it, you'll notice that they have a lot more in common with Cynic and Gorguts, than they do with Minor Threat or Black Flag. The only thing really lacking that most metal bands have is a "metal vibe" which I don't get from their music. But that's mostly due to their unorthodox riffing. My vote? Put them as "tech metal" or whatever. It doesn't describe their music, just the fact that it's technical and metal, but it's the closest you can get to describing the band without sounding like a weirdo. No one takes the term "mathcore" seriously anyway.86.81.15.127 00:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you listened to their self titled record? That really doesn't sound like what they are now. But like you say "The whole point of hardcore is to be simple, loud, fast, and not give a fuck.". What DEP did is take "simple, loud, fast, and not give a fuck.", throw away "simple", add complexity and, voila, mathcore was born. I don't deny DEP has metal influences, in fact, I'm sure they have metal influences, like a lot of bands coming from the post hardcore movement. DEP took what bands did in the post-hardcore movement to the extreme. They sound very similar to (less extreme) bands also rooted in hardcore like Coalesce, Converge, Botch (by the way, Coalesce and Botch members are friends of DEP members). You may think they don't really resemble Black Flag but it IS a major influence (DEP has recorded two songs for a Black Flag tribute album).

And keep in mind thrash metal is greatly influenced by hardcore punk.

Some sources:

"Dillinger Escape Plan's frenetic, intense, and sometimes violently spastic performances became the talk of the hardcore scene."

"The Dillinger Escape Plan creates maniacally intense, crushingly metallic, and decidedly hardcore punk-infused jazz time-signature invoking compositions"

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg%2edll?p=amg&sql=11:gcfyxqqjldse~T1

The Last.fm community considers DEP to be: experimental grindcore hardcore math metal mathcore metal metalcore, mostly -core genres...

I don't like using metal-archives.com to proove my point (because I think the submission rules suck) but metal-archives don't allow DEP into the database because DEP are too hardcore,
so I'm not the only one that thinks DEP is rooted in hardcore.
Emmaneul 08:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Converge, Coalesce and Botch aren't "post-hardcore". That's stuff like Fugazi, later At The Drive-In, Drive Like Jehu, Lungfish and so on. Allmusic.com is a source for music and they label grindcore as a style of metal, which it isn't. It's a type of hardcore punk that has been around since before the metal influenced grindcore bands started emerging. "I Hate Pigeons" by Cyanamid was recorded in '83 or '84 and it's 100% hardcore punk. Lärm seemed to have hated metal back in the '80s, yet they also set the blueprint for what's now known as "grindcore". Basically, just because you read it on the internet does not make it true. Simply put, the hardcore community, the dudes with the Gauze shirts, the Capitalust Casualties fans, the people that obsess over Confuse, and so on, don't consider it hardcore: simply because it isn't. The riff style isn't hardcore (again, listen to "Obscura" by Gorguts and you'll know what I mean, "Focus" by Cynic as well), the drumming isn't hardcore and the drumming has more in common with something you'd expect to hear on a Cynic record, and so on. Shredding, polyrhythms, sweeps, scales, that just isn't hardcore. Yeah, thrash metal has greatly been influenced by hardcore punk, but more in attitude and speed, the riff style evolved from NWOBHM bands like Judas Priest, Venom and Motörhead. Which greatly changed through-out the '80s and changed in to what we now known as thrash metal. Sure, TDEP is influenced by hardcore punk, no one denies that. And for every hardcore punk band they've covered, they've covered a load of other bands as well. And yes, I have their whole discography, their first EP sounds like death metal meets Don Caballero with a hardcore punk vocalist. Which is what was the most hardcore about them; the vocals. Except for now, Greg sounds more like a pissed off Mike Patton than a hardcore vocalist (though hardcore vocals and metal vocals are often used by both genres it's gotten hard to tell, really, I mean, the hardcore punk band Hellnation has high screams that are sorta similar to the ones in death metal). The Dillinger Escape Plan isn't on Metal-archives because those people are too image concious and according to them, TDEP has more in common with "Atreyu and Avenged Sevenfold than metal". Meanwhile, quite a bunch of TDEP rip-offs that aren't nearly as "hip" as TDEP are on there (PsyOpus anyone?). I doubt they actually gave them a good listen anyway.Plus, the word "core" is used for anything that is "new" and "heavy" nowadays. Besides, Relapse records started selling TDEP as "math metal" (possibly a reference to math rock bands like Slint that have similar dynamics), it's a term that caught on and went through some changes and is now applied to anything with screamy vocals, weird time signatures and loud guitars, no matter if it doesn't have anything in common with another band that's labeled that.86.81.15.127 17:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You think allmusic is wrong this time? That's an easy way to get rid of a good argument. (By the way AM considers grindcore as an hybrid of "thrash metal and hardcore punk"^[1])

"Shredding, polyrhythms, sweeps, scales, that just isn't hardcore". Converge, Coalesce, Botch, etc. do shredding, polyrhythms, sweeps, and they sound very similar to DEP, they are considered similar to DEP. They are considered rooted in hardcore. So maybe their riff style and drums aren't purely hardcore (I don't think they are metal either), their singing is, their image is, their uncontrolled anger is (call it "hardcore vibe" if you want), and I think their lyrics are. No metal involved here.

You can compare DEP to "metal" bands like Gorguts and Cynic - I also hear the resemblance - but Gorguts and Cynic are bands that took elements outside of metal and don't sound like any other "tech metal" band.

Indeed, -core is used (too) much nowadays, that doesn't imply DEP is metal.

I think we'll never get done with this discussion. So I made my point.

Emmaneul 22:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

As the bio implies on their Relapse page,^[2] you either hate DEP, or you love them! Crossover bands typically defy easy labeling... But it would be nonsensical to deny their origins (and thus influence) from hardcore (whether punk or metal). They have combined that with many other genres, too many to mention. "Mathcore" seems an easy enough label to pigeon-hole them, until a better term comes along. Honestly, who was doing this blend of technicality with hardcore and metal influence before "Calculating Infinity"?

—Bvoppen 20:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whale Hunter?

The article states that this band is "Managed by longtime friend and whale hunter Tom Apostolopoulos". Can anyone provide a primary source for this? All Google was turning up for me was Wikipedia and some blogs. I'm wondering if someone inserted "whale hunter" here is as subtle form of vandalism. RxVUx6EB 03:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I dug a little here. That was added back in January 2006 with this edit by an account that made less than 50 edits - all related to The DEP - and then disappeared. That same user also contributed to Tom Apostolopoulos which has been deleted four times, the last by Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Apostolopoulos. That AFD didn't say anything about the guy himself being a hoax but it did end with delete. It mentioned that he's part of some site called Buddyhead.com which I think is the real reason for that article's existence. The original version of the Tom Apostolopoulos article starts with an image of a real Grizzly Bear and the caption, "Shot of Apostolopoulos ambushing an unauthorized photographer at a Dillinger Escape Plan show. Shot taken by said photographer shortly before his death". It also says,

A renowned whale hunter, Apostolopoulos once speared a 79 foot sperm whale 134 miles off the coast of Maine. His whale hunting skills have extended into the kitchen of his restaurant, where a number of whale-related dishes are featured on the menu (when in season).

Coiner of the phrase "Nah Brah" and more recently "Going Off", which may have been pilfered from Aaron North, aka "The Corpse".

Once rumored to be a member of some sort of Greek mafia along with original Dillinger singer Dimitri Minakakis, he has little regard for any life other than himself and those he is friends with.

From this link, it appears that the band thanked Apostolopoulos in the liner notes of The Dillinger Escape Plan (EP) - I don't have that one but I'm sure someone can confirm that. This site also mentions a car accident that Apostolopoulos and Weinman were in. In short, it looks like Apostolopoulos does exist and is affiliated with The DEP but that he probably doesn't need a mention here. And the whale hunter stuff is almost certainly nonsense. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The User that added these edits is actually Greg Puticio, lead singer of this very band. He went as far as to comment on their myspace page how ridiculous wikipedia is that he couldn't even add to HIS BANDS OWN wikipedia page without having the edits removed.

Then Puciato should stick to MySpace, and not editing Wikipedia. If you add irrelevant information (which all of it is), it will be removed, even if it is about your OWN BAND. MrHate 03:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I have the record and I just checked: It's in liner notes of The Dillinger Escape Plan (EP)

Emmaneul 14:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

So, Tom Apostolopoulos was associated with DEP, leave that in. But does it really matter here that he is a whale hunter? It seems entirely irrelevant. I suggest at least deleting that information.

—Bvoppen 19:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll delete the whale hunting bit, but I also suggest taking him out all together. Unless Apostolopoulos has made some sort of contribution to the band beside being credited in their first independent EP, it's not appropriate to mention him here. MrHate 03:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Deplive.jpg

Image:Deplive.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dillinger Escape Plan - Plagiarism EP.jpg

Image:Dillinger Escape Plan - Plagiarism EP.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Irony is a Dead Scene' album cover.jpg

Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Irony is a Dead Scene' album cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Calculating Infinity' album cover.jpg

Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Calculating Infinity' album cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:The Dillinger Escape Plan Nora - Split EP Cover.jpg

Image:The Dillinger Escape Plan Nora - Split EP Cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] genre

I think DEP deserves a (well-sourced) 'style and influences' section. We should link to it from the genre part in the infobox (like the Queen (band), System of a Down, etc articles have) to make clear DEP is more than just mathcore. I'll try to look up some info sooner or later. Please help wherever you can. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 19:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias, irrelevence and assorted?

Is it being disputed that James Love is a past member of Dillinger? Is it being disputed that the James Love currently linked is someone else entirely? Is it disputed that The Dillinger Escape Plan do not easily fall into one conclusive genre of music? Is it disputed that Dillinger is known for off meter, polymetric arrangements? What about Ben managing the band? The album being done? Jeff Tuttle taking the place of James Love?

--GongAYong 12:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:The Dillinger Escape Plan - Plagiarism Album Cover.jpg

Image:The Dillinger Escape Plan - Plagiarism Album Cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nomenclature

Can anyone add anything about the origins of the name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.161.7 (talk) 21:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DEP <-> TDEP

The article states that The Dillinger Escape Plan is sometimes know as DEP. As far as I know, it's more commonly abbreviated with TDEP. Even if you search in the discussion page over here, there are a lot of matches for TDEP. Anyway, I just added a redirect page for TDEP and added the abbreviation to the article. --EdSchouten (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grindcore category

I added the grindcore category. For the record I think mathcore is a perfectly reasonable genre listing the DEP, which is why I haven't changed the info box. They do however utilise grindcore elements in their sound and I feel the category should be as inclusive as possible in order to avoid pointless edit wars and arguments on band discussion pages. As per WP:RS, my reference to justify this inclusion is Extreme Metal, Keith Kahn-Harris (2007), Berg Publishers, ISBN 1-84520-399-2, p.4: "Contemporary grindcore bands such as The Dillinger Escape Plan and Agoraphobic Nosebleed have developed avant-garde versions of the genre incorporating frequent time signature changes and complex sounds that at times recall free jazz." Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, DEP "utilise grindcore elements," but The Dillinger Escape Plan do not play grindcore, just as Venom did not play punk rock. And the source? A single line of text, taken from a book which does not focus on extreme metal, but the extreme metal scene. 68.47.81.164 (talk) 03:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It is however a reliable source, written by someone with a well-documented history of writing for extreme metal publications. The book does indeed deal primarily with 'scene' aspects of extreme metal but this does not in itself invalidate it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New DEP Genre influence?

Is it me, or does anyone else have the feeling that DEP have built more of an Alternative metal-influenced sound through their mathcore style of play from their most recent album Ire Works? I think this point could be slightly evident to the fact that one of their most notable subgenres on their myspace is 'Alternative'. Anyone else agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Funkmetalhead16 (talk • contribs) 14:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Myspace is not a reliable source. And obviously, Myspace Music doesn't have an option for 'mathcore'. Find a source and feel free to include it but make sure you read WP:RS first. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Page Re-Write

Due to the page's start class, I have re-written it with more information. I didn't source, but the sources are there, I'm just too lazy at the moment to add them. The information is true, however. I also added an infobox at the bottom, but noticed issues with the Irony is a Dead Scene page that I can't fix. However, if people could add pictures to the articles, it would look much better. Tribestros (talk) 23:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. If you don't source, you won't get uprated. Sorry. Remains start-Class. Please have another go at it. Best wishes.

P.S. Image:Dillinger Escape Plan 'Under the Running Board' album cover.jpg is an awful photograph, way too dark! Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hit Parader

is is notable that they only learned that chris had left through wikipedia on the coheed and cambria page? its in this months hit parader magazine.♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 19:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There was other pages & stuff that were online before Ire Works release. Tribestros 21:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Picture

That picture is a current picture of DEP with Jeff Tuttle, and is more accurate than the live picture, which features former band members, making it not accurate. Thanks, and please do not revert it again. Also, please leave the pictures in the article unless you can prove why you see them not helpful. Tribestros (talk) 02:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The current picture (probably) violates copyright, a big issue here on wikipedia. If there is a free alternative, the free one must be used. Pease read WP:NONFREE.

No, it doesn't violate copyright. If it did, Wikipedia would have flagged the image. 98.199.51.46 (talk) 00:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)