Talk:The Clash/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Better Picture

You think we can get a better picture than that? Mick Jones is looking down and Joe Strummers face is covered.

Sloppy

This is a pretty sloppy article. It uses some colloquialisms (particularly from the UK), the grammar is shoddy in many places, and it doesn't sound as objective and scientific as it should. I'll take a crack at it but if you are concerned for the quality of Wikipedia, please read over it yourself as well. Stellis 17:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Vanilla Tapes?

Should we include the recently released (and quite cool) Vanilla Tapes somewhere in here? For those who don't know, they were a set of tracks the band recorded themselves a few weeks before they recorded London Calling. It's almost all the songs from that album in early stages, and a pretty cool listen. There were a lot of stories floating around about their existance; I won't bore you with details but you can easily find more with Google. Anyone have suggestions on how/if to include them? FilthMasterFlex

Absolutely. Just include the Legacy Edition of LC in total. It's worthy of mention. Of course, I would write volumes on the band so...

Prose complaint

Literary speaking, the grammar in this artilce is terrible, particularly the latter half. As an encyclopedia which is accessed by millions of people every day surely Wikipedia has a responsibilty to conform to the English language—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.196.231.101 (talk • contribs)

Live At Bonds (Bootleg, Live 1981) Epic

Does this record exist or is it a michaelism? And if it was a bootleg was it released on Epic who are a major label? I've never heard of this record, but admit I don't know that much about the Clash post London Calling.

I'm sure there are loads of Clash bootlegs available (I've even got one on tape somewhere) but maybe bootlegs should be listed seperately from official releases? quercus robur 19:05 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

There are always tons of bootlegs of any popular artist. I have a Clash bootleg CD somewhere, but I see little reason to include them on a page such as this. (I'm new here and not entirely familiar with the term "Michaelism", but after reading the 1976 bootleg discussion on the Crass page I think I have a pretty good idea of what it means.) However, I think their other major recordings deserve mention, notably Black Market Clash (or perhaps Super Black Market Clash) and even The Clash on Broadway and From Here to Eternity. -R. fiend

http://www.clashcity.com/imct if it exists, it's on that site. Sign up, it's free, and then feel free to download whatever it may have. I'd check Satch's forums as well, and the Blackmarket Clash site.
It's on AMG so it's a non-bootleg-bootleg... the ones that aren't illegally recorded. It was recorded for the radio at first and in 2000 released on CD... and I made an infobox for it. gren グレン 18:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

This show has been bootlegged in many different formats, but as far as I know there's no actual boot called "Live At Bonds". Even if there was, there are much more widely available bootlegs such as Trick Or Treat or Chaos In New York that are far more relevant. The info box is also hopelessly wrong. At the very least the earliest professional bootlegging of this show (i.e. not just some tape or cd swapped between fans as I imagine the allmusic review is from) is the CD Pier Pressure from 1998, so listing a later bootleg from 2000 is redundant. And that's before the fact it's currently listed as a Columbia records release! Although this show was pro recorded it has NEVER been officially released, save a few tracks on the live album and on Clash On Broadway and Westway To The World. I also posted about this on the actual Bonds page. I'd like to re-write the entry as it's caused confusion for people elsewhere, but I'm new to editing wikipedia, and I also don't really know how to handle it. Should the entire page be renamed to a specific real bootleg, or should the page be used as a discussion of the Bonds residency shows in general (as it already pretty much is), and bootlegs thereof?

Moburma 11:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"The Only Band that Matters"

Wasn't this their record-company authored advertising slogan? Shouldn't there be some distance between the tone of the encyclopedia article and the band's publicity material? --BTfromLA 06:42, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, wherever it came from it has caught on, and it is a phrase associated with them. Sort of like Michael Jackson dubbing himself the King of Pop. -R. fiend 04:04, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The actual slogan was "The Only English Band That Matters". The earliest I've seen it was on a poster for the show at Geary Temple, San Francisco, Feb 8, 1979, on their first U.S. tour. The show was a benefit concert and not supported by their management or record company, so the poster is a crude locally-produced one; the words "The Clash" do not appear on the poster, although there is a photo of the band and that slogan. Seems to indicate that the slogan came from U.S. fans, not the record company. Certa 19:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

not a single picture?

not an album cover? no lead singer pictures? no guitarists jamming? this is wikipedia, right?

Lockeownzj00 02:58, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I added the album covers; how do they look? Are they too close together, in the wrong sections, or anything like that? Everyking 05:10, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
One possibility would be to put the London Calling cover by the intro, because it's so iconic, but then again I also like the way they're arranged in chronological order now. Everyking 05:12, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
That picture ought to be mentioned. I seem to recall it being voted the most famous picture in Rock and Roll in a ?BBC poll a few years ago. Which one of them is it smashing his guitar, and am I right in recalling that he said afterwards he regretted it?--84.9.17.30 23:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

We've got a picture of the lineup up at the top now, but I think it'd be nice to have a picture or two of the band actually playing. It's a bit important, I think, because with the shifting styles of the band, they also took on different looks, from "punk" to "rocker", and then finally what I can only call "combat rock". I know I know, it's what they did not what they wore, but I think it still helps people get a better picture of the band than the album covers, which they could just as easily find on the albums' pages. Slythefox

Slythefox, why did you alter the "White Riot" cover image? That green tint is the actual color of the sleeve. Please restore the earlier image. BTfromLA 19:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Clash (although I enjoyed them musically...albeit they were putting their thumbs into too many musical pies) were insipid amauteuristic left-wing lunatics with no clue. The Ramones and the Sex Pistols influenced more bands, but the Clash's Squeeky Wheel Marxists fans will never let on to this.

This is a story that needs to be told. But Marxists never stand for the truth, so I guess it is moot.

Um, a Marxist will stand for the truth, but maybe a Stalinist won't, which they aren't. Yes, The Clash came after The Ramones and The Sex Pistols, and were influenced by them, but The Ramones were bubblegum on speed, and The Sex Pistols were unconstructive nilists. The Clash tried to give Punk a concience, and that's what influenced the bands that came after them. Phil 16:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Article is biased against the Sex Pistols!

I'm going to try and edit this article to fix this. And the Sex Pistols and the Clash are equally popular.

Noo.... the Sex Pistols were much more abrasive to the mainstream... God Save the Queen and Anarchy in the UK are their biggest hits and they were/are never played on the Radio like Should I Stay or Should I go... or, Rock the Casbah, or even London Calling. Much more of a fringe group that fewer bands cite as their influence. gren グレン 18:45, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Sex Pistols are just as influential, probably more so, than the Clash to UK artists. I've certainly seen the Sex Pistols namechecked more often in music articles than the Clash. The Sex Pistols are probably held in higher esteem because they appeared first and they flared out after delivering one seminal punk album, while the Clash evolved and acknowledged the history of rock 'n roll at a time when punk was becoming post-punk, delivering bands like Joy Division, the Fall, and Gang of Four who were more experimental and "forward-thinking"
But I seriously think there should be no comparison in the article over which band was bigger/more influential. Things can subsequently get really caught up in tangental discussions. WesleyDodds 07:10, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Why argue?

Let's face it. Both the Sex Pistols and the Clash were both highly influential over many bands who formed after them. I am sure that some were inspired by both groups; the Clash are often cited as not being a punk band and more often than not, they are critisized. The Pistols were the clerics (if you like) for popular musics greatest ever explosion, for that is how I define the late 70's movement, 1977 was the year that the time bomb finally detonated!! The Clash on the other hand, had their own structuring of political life, and although did not seek to promote anarchy, were just as defiant towards the establishment in areas where the establishemnt had been the source of the offence. The general point made by the Sex Pistols (Johny Rotten mainly) is that this band wasn't just anti-establishment, but anti-ANTI-establishment too, they hated both sides of the barrier - who ever heard Malcolm praising any other movement as being good? When did the band members ever pay homage to any other group? Rotten was so subversive he even hated himself first thing in the morning! As time has gone by, everyone has tried to convince themselves (and the dumb public) that they are 'bad boys of pop', I mean these rappers, so-called 21st century punk bands, hip-hop people, Britpop w*nkers etc: all try to give it the big 'I am' but then act the gentleman in the presence of ladies; be seen shaking hands with people such as the Prime Minister, or accept knighthoods from the Queen; play the hard man whilst fancying himself at the same time; using the media purely as a form of glory hunting (drawing attention to oneself) with scandalous stories. We all know that these great bands of the late 70's never had to do that! They were original, and did what they would have done famous or not. Their imporatnce was that they taught us young people of the time how to live and enjoy life on the (outside) to the outside lane! Celtmist 5.10.05

Vocalists

I've added a 'clarify' tag because I'm not really sure what point is being made. I'm not being pedantic here, I think it's really not clear. "A band member other than Strummer sang at least one track on a Clash album" (after grammatical changes). Does the author mean that every band member sang a track on each album, or that each album had at least one non-Strummer lead vocal? (If the latter it's not particularly extraordinary by the way - I think I'm right in saying that all 4 of the Beatles had a lead vocal on every album?)

Well yeah, I think it's generally acknowleged that Strummer and Mick Jones traded off lead vocals on the albums (like Strummer doing Rock the Casbah and a bunch of the other songs and Jones doing Should I Stay..., Lost in the Supermarket, Stay Free), or sometimes did dual lead vocals (Remote Control, Clampdown) akin to the Who. Jones and Strummer were present on vocals more than the other members were.

I love the Clash by the way, just don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of them. My guess is the latter is right. --kingboyk 19:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Long live the legacy of the (immortal) Joe Strummer!

The only song that I'm aware of another member of the band other than Strummer or Jones singing lead on is "Guns of Brixton" being sung by Paul Simonon. Phil 16:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
There are three songs feature Paul on lead vocals, "Guns of Brixton" (from London Calling), "Crooked Beat" (from Sandinista), and "Red Angel Dragnet" (from Combat Rock). Topper only has one song that features him on lead vocals, "Ivan Meets G.I. Joe" (from Sandinista). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.225.194.231 (talk) 21:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

2005 Reunion?

Should there be more about the 2005 reunion? About how it's not definate, and no tour dates have been released, etc., etc.? Maybe also a link to The Clash Reunion article? Just a thought.

There is no base behind the reunion rumour. It shouldnt even be mentioned here. As a long time StrummerNews and Satch's member (two highly regarded Clash Forums) i can say that this was an April fools joke started by Pearl Jam fans.

I agree - all news regarding this reunion can be traced back to that Pearl Jam forum, it would seem. It looks very much like a hoax --Loopy 18:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I as well am a StrummerNewser and this is a hoax. There is no notability behind it. User:GBVrallyCI 22:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I had no idea there were other Strummernews folks here... Jlee562 09:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Photos?

Surely there are some public domain/fair use pictures of the band we can use? --Loopy 03:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Album covers are often used, but those are dodgy under Wikipedia:Fair use. Those Photoshopped album covers that were here for a while were egregious copyright violations. Best would be some fan photos from someone willing to release their work under the GFDL or CC-SA licenses. Second best would be to contact former labels / promotional companies to ask for actual publicitity photos that are copyrighted by the band or by their agents, and use those as Fair use and with permission. Jkelly 03:22, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

London Calling Cover?

"...while the photo is of Simenon smashing his bass at the end of filming for the "London Calling" video..." First of, Simonon's name is misspelt. Secondly, that's NOT when it was shot. It was shot at the end of the 1979 show at the Palladium in NY.

Also, the pieces of the bass are at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio.

Rockabilly?

This term makes no sense to me when describing The Clash. Although they that twangy sound in some of their songs, I would by no means consider them a rockabilly band. Also, none of their influences can be connected to rockabilly bands. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but i think describing The Clash as a rockabilly band is plain wrong.

It's a lot more accurate than calling them "punk".

I agreeUltradrummer528 23:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, Strummer did cite it as an influence; and if you hear Givem enough rope you can hear a few songs (unfortunately) in that style.--clash_division 18:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"Unfortunately"? hmmm....... Only "Brand New Cadillac" and "The Leader" come to mind as being specifically rockabilly. ("Midnight Log" has a sort-of rockabilly beat, but rockabilly it ain't.) Nothing on 'Give 'em Enough Rope" comes even close, except maybe the swing beat in "Julie's on the Drug Squad", but it takes more than a swing beat to qualify. wikipediatrix 19:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The end of Should I Stay or Should I Go has a kind of a rockablilly feel to it.

"Know Your Rights" is another one. Phil 16:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Eh, not so much. I feel "Know Your Rights" is based more on Ska/Reggae.

Brand New Cadillac is definitely rockabilly influnced. if not rockabilly, then roots rock

--- Isn't "Brand New Cadillac" a cover? Not that this would or wouldn't make it rockabilly, but as it is a cover, perhaps the stlye of the original song influenced the way in which they arranged their version. In other words, if this is the only rockabilly type song the Clash performed, it is more likely in a rockabilly style in reference to the original as opposed to a style they were deliberately trying to emulate.

Calling or Combat?

Article says London Calling was height of commercial success, then goes on to say Combat Rock was the best selling record? It's one or the other.

What does this sentence mean?

Can someone work out the correct punctuation for the sentence "For a time fans thought that Headon and Jones would work together, but former's severe drug addiction, prevented him, although there was a planned reunion, between them."

Wow. That is hilariously bad. I'll fix it (I think I've worked out the intented meaning), unless it appears to be too speculative and inconsequential, in which case I'll just remove it. -R. fiend 23:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, skimming through the article I couldn't find that sentence. But sometime when I have a bit of free time I'll go through the entire article and do some copyediting; I saw a few other things that could use some slight work. -R. fiend 23:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Joe and BAD

"Then Simonon returned to his roots as a visual artist, mounting several art-gallery shows and contributing the cover for Jones' third BAD album, which was, coincidentally, co-produced by Strummer."

Strummer collaborated with BAD on their second album, "No. 10, Upping St.," not their third album as the article suggests.

Other Members

I deleted Jon Moss and added Rob Harper in the Other Members section. Moss auditioned for the band (one of several dozens who did) but he never drummed before a live audience nor did any of his percussion even make it onto a demo tape.

Rob Harper, on the other hand, did play with The Clash from December 1976 - January 1977 on the Anarchy Tour supporting the Sex Pistols. Although most of the gigs on this tour were canceled due to the notorious behaviour of the Pistols and the fans, Rob played in the half dozen or so gigs that did take place. That seems to put him in a category above any of the many other drummers who practiced with The Clash as they were forming.

Also, I ammended the dates that Terry Chimes was listed as drumming with the band. I changed the dates of his second stint with The Clash from 1982-1983 to just 1982. His last gig with the band was on November 27, 1982, at the Jamaican World Music Festival.

--Spiff666 16:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Spiff666

I took the liberty of adding another nickname to "Topper" Headon which sheds a more positive light on his overall musical abilities. I inserted the "Human Drum Machine" reference, since it seems he was harshly noted more for his heroine abuse, than his skills in his bio on the page.

ERic 00:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed Jon Moss from auditioning drummers as well. Rat Scabies from The Damned also had auditioned, but it doesn't merit mention in the article. Phil 17:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The lack of a mention of Mikey Dread (aka Michael Campbell) is shameful. He produced and sang on many of the tracks on Sandinista! and right after that toured with the band - 209.248.175.82 15:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The Sex Pistols

Is it not incorrect to say "nihilism of the Sex Pistols and the simplicity of The Ramones.". I have never ever heard of Sex Pistols being Nihilists, in fact are they not anti-royalty(of a cromwellian persuasion?). Just a thought, if they make sense, someone could change it. --Duey Finster 13:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Also on the topic of the Pistols, didn't the Clash have something of a feud with them due to the Pistols' continued use of the swastika (notably Sid Vicious' infamous T-shirt that drove the Clash to swear never to play on the same bill with the Pistols again? I seem to recall hearing that somewhere, but don't remember where and was wondering if that was an urban legend... Pat Payne 21:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Never heard that before - The Clash played with the Pistols for most of the Pistols' career. Use of swastikas was widespread in the early scene, notable in some other very prominent bands like Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Damned. I do know of a "folk legend" involving Siouxsie singing a capella for a few minutes (that part of the tale seems "optional") before acquiring instruments, because The Clash refused to let her use their gear while wearing a swastika armband, and Siouxsie refused to take it off. --Switch 03:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Nihilism: The belief that all endeavors are ultimately futile and devoid of meaning (the 4th definition with Wiktionary). I believe that fits their attitude. Don't get me wrong, I like them, but they weren't constructive, where The Clash tried to be. Phil 16:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

POV, OR and unsourced info

User:Guinnog reinstated info I removed, and I'm removing it again. A Wikipedia article is not a record review or a magazine article. You cannot make observations, critiques, or statements that are a matter of opinion without citing them to an external source (even if that info seems obvious to a typical Clash fan). wikipediatrix 16:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Some examples: "The absence of Topper Headon was crucial to the album's downfall." Who says? It's a judgment, a matter of opinion. Wikipedia can't say this. Someone else has to. Find a source who did, and cite it. Likewise, the rambling passage about the "theories about Mick Jones" being "discredited" are just someone's opinion and not encyclopedic. And "what made the Clash so good in the first place" is such an obvious personal POV violation I can't believe anyone would defend it. That Strummer was disillusioned" with Cut the Crap as early as its own tour needs to be sourced, as does the hyperbolic claim that "all parties involved wanted to disown the album". wikipediatrix 16:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Cut The Crap wasn't even discussed in the Westway to the World bio-pic and I believe the album was released well before the bio-pic.

Filmography

I have added a note to "Die Another Day." It was included in the filmography section, but the film did not feature The Clash. It did have "London Calling" very notably playing when Bond returned to London. Frankly, I don't think it should be included in this section (maybe in trivia instead). Also, should we put in something about the short film that The Clash made? A silent picture (set to Clash tunes) that they made called "Hell W-10" is included on the "Essential Clash" DVD.Lamontacranston 02:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA

As of 13 October 2006, I am making a speedy failing for this article to reach Good Article status, per WP:WIAGA, because of the following fatal reasons:

  1. This article is totally unsourced. Please provide your reliable sources according to WP:CITE to support the three pillars of Wikipedia: neutral point of view, no element of original research and verifiable. Somebody else has put a template in this article for editors to fill in their references.
  2. All of the images used are copyrighted and no fair use rationale given. Please provide images suitable for Wikipedia, per WP:ICT, or give fair use rasionale, per WP:FAIR.

If all of those matters above have been fixed, this article can be renominate it again. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 11:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros' last concert

Although it would be more poignant if the concert on Nov. 15, 2002 (when Mick Jones joined them onstage) was Joe Strummer's last - it wasn't. The last Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros' Concert was Nov. 22, 2002. This can be checked at the Black Market Clash website and in the book by Anthony Davie about the Mescaleros, Vision of a Homeland.

I've corrected this. Devilgate 09:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Paul Simonon

So, did the concert ("The Good, the Bad and the Queen") concert take place? It would seem newsworthy, given Simon's long absence. JakartaDean 15:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)JskartaDean

Images

I took down the image of London Calling as I am not sure this is good fair use. I moved the masthead fair use band pic down to replace it, and made a logo image to go in the masthead (adapted it from the 1st album). If anybody felt strongly about it we could change the logo, but this is the logo I certainly associate with the band, and I think a logo works better here than a band pic. --Guinnog 17:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

After much thought (and a change of user name!) I have now changed my mind on this if we could keep it to just the one fair use photo. I think I can justify the rationale I wrote at Image:TheClashLondonCallingalbumcover.jpg and propose restoring it to the article. Thoughts? --John 04:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Flag

Anybody object if I remove the flag? It seems more appropriate for an article on a football team than a band, especially perhaps a band which was so anti-nationalistically inclined. I well remember seeing the Clash in Edinburgh in '84 doing a version called "This is Scotland" for example... --Guinnog 22:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I have done that. I don't think it added much. Guinnog 04:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey Guinnog, I was at that gig, and I don't remember 'This is Scotland'. I wish I did. Devilgate 10:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I remember it, though it was a long time ago. I'll see if I can find a recording of it anywhere... not that it makes a huge difference. Incidentally, I've initiated a centralised discussion of this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music#Flags as I thought the flag looked silly in all band articles, not just the Clash's, as I've explained there. --Guinnog 12:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I've just finished Chris Salewicz's biography of Joe, and and he refers to 'This is Scotland' being played in Glasgow on the busking tour. I don't remember them doing it in Edinburgh on that one either, but hey, it was a long time ago. Devilgate 17:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that makes sense, although I never saw the busking gig but only heard recordings of it, I may have conflated the two after all these years. --Guinnog 17:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Influence

does anyone know what bands or other musical artists influenced the clash?

Just about anyone they ever heard ;-) Devilgate 10:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The Kinks, Mott The Hoople, David Bowie, Chuck Berry, Jonathan Richman, The Rolling Stones, The Faces, Iggy Pop, The Stooges, The Flamin' Groovies, The MC5, The Standells, Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie (Joe was such a fan that his nickname before The Clash, and late in The Clash's existence was Woody Mellor), The New York Dolls, The Ramones, The Sex Pistols

and countless ska bands. I've never seen it actually said, but if they were fans of David Bowie, they almost also had to have been fans of The Velvet Underground as well. Phil 17:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The music of the Sixties, Johnny Thunders and the New York Dolls, MC5, Iggy Pop and the The Stooges, the Protopunk bands, Ian Hunter and the Mott the Hoople, Steve Marriott and the Humble Pie, David Bowie for Mick; Chuck Berry, Slim Harpo, Captain Beefheart, The Rolling Stones, The Kinks, The Who, The Pretty Things, Yardbirds, Dr. Feelgood, Lou Reed, Woody Guthrie and Bo Diddley for Joe; Reggae, Ska, Rocksteady, Roots and 2 Tone for Paul; Jazz, Bebop, Free Jazz, Acid Jazz, Crossover, Blues and Fusion for Topper. - (Pjoef 15:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC))

Unworking Link

I just wanted to signal that the link Revolution rock [...] is not working.
Giacomo   )ask(

fixed
Mister B. 03:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Citation

Hey guys, it seems like there are a lot of statements that could really do with citation on this page. I know there are a lot of publications on the Clash out there; I will look around for some good references. If you guys could have a look too, I think we could really improve the overall quality of the article. (Compare to the Sex Pistols with ninety some odd references, and less than ten on this article.)Mister B. 02:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

How can we get rid of the silliness?

Can we edit the "mack daddy pimps" line please? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.171.138.207 (talk) 18:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Years Active

Is it: "were active from 1976 to 1986" (first sentence) or "Years active 1976–1989" (infobox)? Gerardtalk 18:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


The band was active from 1976-1985. Numerous books have noted this, as well as the members themselves. I don't know how this myth of 1986 has perpetuated. We need a solid reference in order to keep it changed. Ahubling 23:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Restored Image

I restored the picture of the band that was there before. It was removed as unsourced, but the source is given, and the fair use rationale is perfectly reasonable. This article definitely needs a picture. Mycroft7 22:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I like the picture at the Italian wikipedia ariticle better, where it's a featured article. I don't know Italian, though, and I wouldn't want to add it without reading the description. Perhaps somebody else could take a look, here. It looks like the author's permission is given. Mycroft7 22:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hitsville UK

I don't think Hitsville UK can really be described as gospel. To me , it sounded more similar to pop of some sort from the 60's. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.237.23.19 (talk) 11:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

Alternative?

The Clash were never alternative, alternative wasn't even considered a genre at the time, since is an offshoot of the Post-Punk movement. There is a very accurate comment at the beginning of the Post-Punk article that says "(The Clash) remained predominantly punk in nature yet inspired and were inspired by elements in the post-punk movement" that may enlighten us in the genre subject -being it a very controversial one-... as I see it The Clash were always a punk band, but all through their career they explored different genres such as Reggae (Armagideon Time, Bank Robber), Dub (Robber Dub, First Night Back In London) , Ska (Wrong ‘em Boyo, Rudie Can’t fail) and Post-Punk (The Magnificent Seven, Lightning Strikes (Not Once But Twice), Radio Clash, The Call Up, Rock The Casbah); and that is what should be considered in the genre section. Instead of putting something as ridiculous as "alternative" we should feel free to list Post-Punk as a genre because it's obvious that albums such as Sandinista! Or Combat Rock explore into that genre. Further more I would like to extend this to the influence issue that is mentioned before, since "The Clash"(album) and "Give 'em Enough Rope" are considered landmarks in Punk Rock as a genre is logical to assume that many contemporary punk bands would cite those albums and The Clash as an influence... but in order to make an extensive and honest influence recount we should consider the whole catalogue of the band. A band like Radio 4 cites The Clash, Gang of Four and PIL as influences; and if you listen to songs like The Magnificent Seven, Radio Clash, The Call Up and Rock the Casbah you would understand why, and why The Clash is an important reference in the Post-Punk Revival/Dance-Punk movement as well.- Leo 20:16, 1 May 2007

The problem here is that many have forgotten that for years, "alternative" was a well-known and well-accepted term, used to encompass punk, postpunk, and post-new wave uncategorizable stuff. In fact, somewhere I still have an old "Alternative Radio" trade publication from 1982 with a full page ad for "Combat Rock". Gradually, the term became accepted, being more palatable to most than the generic and contrived term "New Music" that the major labels unsuccessfully tried to make the new standard term. "Alternative stations" flourished in the mid-late 80's. Originally it was an umbrella term that could mean anything from the Clash to the Residents to Black Uhuru to Green On Red. I'm not sure which bands were the first to self-identify as "alternative bands" as a musical genre, but it probably happened in the very early 90's so that bands like the Katydids could distance themselves from the grungier stuff that was taking over. The term "alternative" got hijacked, like everything else does in time, mainly by people who love to put everything in narrow boxes and couldn't stand that "alternative" originally encompassed many types of music, and for that reason, I always thought of the Clash as the ultimate "alternative" band and "Sandinista" as the ultimate "alternative" album, because of their inherent uncategorizability. wikipediatrix 20:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Well said, wikipediatrix! I agree with you. I had been thinking about a response to this message for a couple days now, but you have stated it better than I could have hoped. Yes, alternative means something different now than it did for those of us who listened to alternative music back in the '80s and very early '90s. To me, alternative means anybody I used to read about in the NME in the '80s. ---Charles 22:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The Clash aren't an alternative rock band unless you consider all punk rock "alternative". Regardless of the evolving application of the term "alternative" itself over the years, The Clash were a percursor to the genre we now call alternative rock, but are not of the genre. They essentially predate it. By the way, the link in the infobox didn't even link to the genre page.

Oh, and The Clash weren't post-punk either. Simon Reynolds has described them as "post-punk whipping boys" during the era because they were decidedly more rockist and punk rock than the post-punk bands of the era. So post-punk bands and critics talked shit about them. WesleyDodds 11:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

This illustrates the ridiculousness of attempting to define genres in concrete terms. There are so many sub-genres of punk rock alone that trying to pidgeonhole any band into one of them is an exercise in futility. "Alternative", in its most general sense, is any form of rock music that is not mainstream. There was a time in the 90's when some record stores had an Alternative section, to separate the likes of The Cure from the likes of Phil Collins. Then alternative became mainstream and the term became even more meaningless than it already was. So in one sense, The Clash are alternative, as is all punk rock. The term is too vague and all-encompassing to really mean much of anything, but it's too common to be ignored entirely. I guess I should look at the alternative rock article and see what it says. In any case, I don't think we can assert that Simon Reynolds has the final word of categorization of bands. -R. fiend 13:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The reason I cited Simon Reynolds was for historical context, since he wrote Rip it Up and Start Again, the history of post-punk. Anyway, the accepted definition of alternative rock is music that developed after the first wave of punk (its exact boundaries beyond that depending on who you talk to), so that does not include The Clash. WesleyDodds 00:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Timeline Graphic

This timeline is directly copied from the Italian article. Perhaps it could be incorporated somewhere, or even modifed for more detail. Mycroft7 16:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Mick was in the band for about half of 1983, he overlaps with Pete Howard as evidenced on the US festival videos. Ahubling 23:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The US Festival Appearance

I don't believe that 'Oliver Rumpf'(whoever he may be)headlined at the US Festival alongside the Clash, Van Halen and David Bowie as the article claims.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.2.59.221 (talk • contribs)

I believe you're right. I've removed it as a suspected joke. Thanks. --Guinnog 18:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo

What is the new photo about? Is it even a picture of the Clash? It's hard to say, but I'm not sure it is even genuine. --John 14:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Genres in infobox

Can we have done with the constant changing of the genres in the infobox? My vote would be to say punk rock and rock---though I honestly believe that to be repetitive, since punk rock is obviously a subgenre of rock---period, and leave out reggae, rocksteady, ska, post-punk, and even alternative (see the discussion above) since agreement cannot be reached on any of these. All these other genres were influences---but then, so were rockabilly and country---and, as has been stated elsewhere on this talk page, they experimented with a number of different styles of music. Obviously, we cannot list them all, so the list should be brief and include only those of which there can be no doubt or disagreement: punk rock and rock. ---TheoldanarchistComhrá 22:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I concur. As long as those influenced are mentioned in the article, I think the punk/rock designation is sufficient for the infobox. --Gimme danger 21:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Yep. While their cover of "Police and Thieves" was a reggae moment (and London Calling and especially Sandinista! contain much reggae), they were primarily a punk band and as long as these other genres are mentioned in the article, I don't think we need have them in the box as well. --John 21:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think so, and I don't agree with you! The first two albums are Punk Rock, and parts of their last. 'London Calling', a double album (#8 in the RS 500 greatest albums of all time), has 0 Punk Rock songs, on 'Black Market Clash' there are "Capital Radio One" and "Cheat" (2 on 9), on 'Sandinista!', a triple album!!! (6 sides!!!), you'll find Waltz!, Soul!, Jazz!, and a lot of other genres, but not Punk Rock. 'Combat Rock' is also punk less. So, in 11 albums (22 sides) there are less than 3 albums (6 sides on 22) that should be considered as Punk Rock. They were Punk Rock at 20-30% in music, 1976-1978 in period, and 110% in style (Clash style obviously)! - (Pjoef 22:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC))

Missing section

The History chapter is obviously missing the 1978-1982 section. Perhaps it was deleted by mistake? Nicola Musatti 16:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


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