Talk:The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever

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[edit] Major Themes?

I always thought one of the major themes in the Covenant series was the corrupting influence of power. The first series is based on the fact of Covenant's power, which he can't use without creating worse problems than already exist (use of the white gold will free Foul from the arc...). And the second series is the same--the venom put into Covenant makes him unable to use the power again without severe consequences. To me, that is the primary theme of the entire series. Pcrh 21:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It's so funny how different people read the same things and see entirely different ideas in it! I don't see that theme in TCTC at ALL, in fact quite the opposite. To me it seems like power in Donaldson's world is neither corruptive, good nor evil. Indeed, he draws beings of immense power which behave in both 'good' and 'evil' ways. Covenant himself possesses the ultimate power in the Land, yet he is clearly a man, no more nor less, no more 'good' or 'evil' than your or I. He does indeed wield his power, in fact he ultimately merges with the power itself, but it scares the hell out of him with good reason. He recognizes that extreme power can wreak extreme havoc as easily as extreme good...but he can't control it very well!
The Lords are an excellent example. They wield tremendous power in the Land, and are essentially very good characters, but they can be corrupted, can be weak, and sometimes are just plain misguided in their use of power. The Bloodguard/Haruchai/Masters are another excellent example. Extremely powerful physically, their service is never perfect enough, or the object of their service is never perfect enough to justify their service. The use of their power never seems sufficient somehow.
I believe the real theme is that power is a tool, no more, no less. A distant relative of mine was attacked and killed by a psycho with a hammer...the same tool I use to help build people houses when I volunteer for Habit for Humanity. People are neither inherently 'good' nor 'bad', and neither is power. People and power are both far more complicated than that. Middlenamefrank 16:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
What about the "Question of ethics" paper that the ochre robed man gives Covenant in the first book? I thought that was one of the biggest themes throughout the first trilogy and maybe even through all of the books. The question of whether ones actions in a dream/fantasy world define them morally in any way. When Covenant rapes Lena, is this okay because it is a dream for him? Is it okay for him to let the land perish because he might just wake up in a little bit anyway? No, he comes to the resolution that whether or not it is a dream, he finds beauty in it and wishes to preserve it. Anyway... that was an important theme for just me or did others think so too? I dont know how to make my IP show up after an edit...so my bad.

[edit] Duplication?

I'm just wondering (in the nicest possible way) why this page exists, when the same material is covered in Stephen_R._Donaldson. Surely the wiki does not need both? Nevilley

I think so. It allows more space for the world of TC, and allows direct redirects. (I actually came here, because I needed a link to a SF book where Giants are friendly, for the Mythology Giants page) - Marco V

Btw, TC did have leprosy in the other wolrd, but it was cured by the "woundclay" (I read a translation, don't know the original english world). Soon after he realised he was cured, he raped Lena.

"hurtloam" in English. But woundclay was close enough.--Barry 18:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to start working on doing a little expanding. Major characters, races, etc., but I'm waiting until I finish rereading the 1st and 2nd Chronicles.--Barry 18:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

fwiw - I think this material belongs here too. Wiki is becoming a store of anything/everything. What a nice "re-living" of these books for me, 20 years removed from when I read them, some of whose scenes still stand out in my mind today (e.g., "Nom"). I might someday have though of doing a general net search on them and may have found the "official" pages; but while on Wiki I am much more inclined to mine past read books, visited places, etc.

Dude! Don't entionmay the andgorgonsay!

[edit] Proposal to merge Caesure

I'd do this myself, but haven't read the book so can't be certain of the accuracy of the article. JulesH 19:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

  • merge and redirect Thatcher131 08:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

{{supportvote}} - as there is little in the main article so far - :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 13:03, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

there is now an article for the novel The Runes of the Earth into which this should more properly be merged. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Merge per Kevinalewis. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 23:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for work on SRD's Covenant and related articles

As you might be able to guess, I'm a fan of the Chronicles. These articles seem like they could use better formatting and arrangement, and I'm willing to help. I'd prefer to avoid treading on any toes, despite the "be bold" admonishment.

My ideal would be an article for every Covenant book, but that might not be justified given Donaldson's small following. I'd settle for a detailed seperate article on each "Chronicles" set (first, second, and last). Naturally, the information could then be removed from the article on Mr. Donaldson himself, and replaced with a link to the proper articles.

Are there any comments, or objections to my going ahead with this idea? -Kasreyn 08:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

No objection at all, quite the reverse. This is work that needs doing, Please can I vote for an article per book (i.e. 7 so far), with "Maybe" one for each triolgy as well but this is a secondary thing. I'm quite willing to help with this process if it is agreeable. One more thing could the articles please be structured using the Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate pattern of the writing of such articles. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 09:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a different section for each of the series and/or books would be nice. Furthermore, caesures should certainly be moved into the article - if there are no separate articles for each book, why have one for a term from one of the books? -RetardudGenius 18:26, 04 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to chip in, I came across this page and was surprised that the first chronicle has a page per book (and the first book of the third chronicle) but the second chronicle has only entries for each book on the page (and not in hugely less detail than the single book pages) and no individual pages. I would at least consider adding a redirect from a page called, for instance White Gold Wielder to this page - but separate pages per book would be better. I'll do this unless anyone more 'owning' of the page wants to --Mortice 16:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Done it - moved the 2nd chronicle book synopses into separate pages and changed this page to have links. I don't know enough about 'Gilden-Fire' to know if that should be done as well --Mortice 18:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Words of Power?

Should something be added about the words of power? (You know, "Melenkurion abatha! Duroc minas mil khabaal!")

Hmm, possibly, but really almost nothing is known about them but their names. We don't really know what effect they have, aside from possibly boosting spells or banishing/binding/exorcising Ravers - and even these are pure speculation which Donaldson refuses to answer. As far as I can tell, their purpose is merely to add strangeness and a feeling of fantastic history to the Land, plus they just sound cool. I'd find it hard justifying their inclusion, since they're completely incidental and have nothing to do with the plot. -Kasreyn 11:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I agree - they could be given a passing mantion in a larger article, nothing more. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 14:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ugh.

Must we really have those godawful covers by Darrel K. Sweet on the article? If I remember correctly, even Donaldson himself has joined in the general disgust over their ugliness. Besides, those editions are out of print as far as I know. Covers of the new paperback edition - with the ring - would definitely be easier on the eyes. Kasreyn 22:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I liked the British printed covers myself, but those are awful and garish. Douglasnicol 15:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's a sample of the initial British covers...
http://www.eternalnight.co.uk/books/d/donaldsonstephen/lordfoulsbane.jpg
Far, far superior. Anything would be better than what we currently have. I would prefer a photo of the interior of a litterbox to anything by Darrel K. Sweet. He draws every single character the same - thin, hard-bitten face with a red nose. Someone should teach him how to draw flesh. Kasreyn 01:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The British covers also seem to bear some relevance, as I would imagine the Lord Fouls Bane cover is an image of Kevin's Watch.

Sorry guys but these are the covers I grew up reading. I don't object if someone has the new bookscovers and wants to scan them in. I think we should leave them until then. FrankWilliams 20:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Please, not the covers with the YELLOW gold ring. This is not LotR, these are about Thomas Covenant, WHITE Gold Wielder. Besides which, Donaldson hates the newest covers. Loathes them. Now, the previous covers to that would be excellent. The ones that create one continuous portrait. Beautiful landscapes and characters. (Michael Herring is the artist)

I'd would tend to agree that the orignal covers were something I grew up with and should remain in the article. However, why not also include the currently printed covers with them. Coradon

[edit] Elohim

Is anyone familiar enough with the Elohim (they are mentioned under giants, and are featured in the second chronicles linden avery series) to write a race article for them? They are missing. I would then be able to post a link to the Chronicles on the Elohim article, as I do believe they deserve mention. Consider that one was quite essential to reforming the staff of law. Tyciol 17:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List and description of locations important to the story

We should include the important locations, with a description of them and perhaps their role in the story. Though I imagine that pages will be setup with a synopsis for each of the books, I feel that seperate pages for the various location will flesh out more of the background of each book. Currently I can see adding pages for:

Revelstone

Mount Thunder/Kiril Threndor
Trothguard/Revelwood
Landsdrop
Mithil Stonedown
Coercri
Foul's Creche
Kevin's Watch
Grimmerdhore/Morrinmoss/Garroting Deep
Andelain
etc etc

Granted there is no reason to nickle and dime it with every place mentioned in the Chronicles, but some of the important ones should have more detailed info. Coradon


I am currently trawling through the Covenant works in particular as time allows trying to edit The Land (fiction) Help is welcome. Feel free to leave notes and ideas on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Loyola/Covenant/ Loyola 11:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

There is another article on wikipedia that deals with this. Perhaps a cross-link or merge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.228.195.207 (talk) 20:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demondim

Why does the article call the Demondim semi-corporeal and link them with undead? Does this come from the 2004 book? Did I miss some other reference? Dan 23:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the Demondim were spirits who could possess people and creatures and even the dead. Coradon 15:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is new information revealed in Runes of the Earth. I asked the same question myself when this appeared here in this article, and I have verified it in the book. However, that is about all we know, relayed third-hand by a character in the book, not directly experienced any characters. The details may change as the last series unfolds. Maybe we should put a "Current Events" tag here! *grin* --Carboncopy 17:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It is said in the book. Yet one must remember how "truth" was corrupted between Trilogy 1 and Trilogy 2. What is said of the Demondim may be the same situation. Loyola 07:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
He mentions the Demondim at some point in that "Gradual Interview" thingy on his website. --Starwed 12:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The 7 Wards.

Was there any information released concerning what the 3rd,4th,5th and 6th wards were, and where they were located? Thats been one of my main questions I've had over the last 20 years. Has anyone ever done some fan fiction concerning them? Coradon 15:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about fan fiction, but SRD has not given any more details on the other wards, either in his books or in interviews. He hints that they may become a factor in the Last Chronicles, but he is very circumspect on the subject. See the Gradual Interview at his website. -- Carboncopy 17:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
In The Wounded Land, when the Aumbrie of the Clave is breached, Covenant sees a great many items formerly used in the magic of the Council of Lords, which the Clave has cached away. Among the items are three caskets, which Covenant recognizes as the repositories of the Wards from the discovery of the Second Ward in Mount Thunder in Lord Foul's Bane. Later, during the soothtell, he perceives that sometime after the defeat of Lord Foul, the Council discovered the Third Ward, but, in line with Mhoram's decision to abandon Kevin's Lore as inherently destructive and inconsistent with the philosophy of peace, the search for the other wards was abandoned. Ellsworth 18:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:StephenDonaldson TheRunesOfTheEarth.jpg

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BetacommandBot 04:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship with Lord of the Rings?

"It has a similarly complicated relationship with The Lord of the Rings."

Other than both being High Fantasy and featuring a very important ring, I don't see it. Indeed, Donaldson has said that TCTC needs the ring more than LOTR does: Covenenant has an emotional connection to it as his wedding ring, it wouldn't have made any difference to Frodo if there was "one 'amulet' to rule them all".

Maybe if the author had included a bit of justification I'd be okay with the statement, but as it stands I think it should be deleted.--(unsigned comment by User:195.92.206.243)

The point is:
1. Both centre round a powerful ring, and a cosmic enemy who wants possession of it. However, in LOTR the message is unambiguous: never let him have it, and never use it yourself, power is essentially evil, the end never justifies the means, the aim is always to keep oneself morally pure whatever the cost in alienation. In TCTC this attitude is regarded as pusillanimous: there are times when you have to use powerful and dangerous weapons, with a very high probability that whichever way you choose it will turn out to be a mistake.
2. There are many parallels between the imaginary worlds: Lord Foul/Sauron, ravers/Nazgul, Cavewights/Orcs, Forestals/Ents, Andelain/Lorien, the Lords/the Wise, Ranyhyn/mearas; and even the military structure of Eomans and Eowards (or whatever they are called) sounds like the eored of Rohan. However, in each case there is a twist to show that Donaldson does not quite agree with Tolkien's attitudes: Cavewights are not necessarily evil creatures to be exterminated, Lord Foul may be the shadow side of one's own personality, the Lords include both sexes equally, and may be corrupted. Above all, while the Tolkien world is meant to be certainly objective, the Land may still be something happening inside the heads of humans from our world. It's not just "Tolkien made politically correct", it's also "Tolkien with more scope for moral ambiguity".
I don't think the article needs an essay along these lines; but the parallel with Tolkien has as much right to be there as the parallel with Wagner's Ring. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Runes of the Earth

Isn't the cover shown for "Runes of the Earth" just the draft-stage book cover? As far as I know, that one was never used for the actual release - can anyone confirm? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Movie?

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2004-12/17/10.00.film —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.69.109.3 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No movie is forthcoming at this time. The official Stephen R Donaldson website says that a group was interested in producing a film, but they were unable to get funded. As of January 2007, they have stopped trying [1]. Carboncopy 19:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major Characters

This page does not have a list of major characters. The "Peoples and Creatures" section is not that specific (at least, it has not been to this point). I recently removed a Berek paragraph on these grounds, but it was a nice summary of him, so I place it here for safekeeping should such a section be deemed necessary here on the main series page.

"Berek Halfhand Also known as: Lordfatherer, Earthfriend, Giantfriend, Heartthew. He He created the Lords system to rule the Land and was the original High Lord. Like Thomas Covenant, Berek was missing several fingers on one hand, though his were lost in battle. He was the first human to become sensitive to the earthpower in the Land. He used it to defeat the corrupt kingdom that was destroying the forests of the Land. During that war, he called forth the Fire Lions (beasts of earthpower resembling lava) from Mount Thunder (as did Covenant). He created the Staff of Law from the One Tree."

Carboncopy 19:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)