Talk:The China Study

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The contents of T. Colin Campbell were merged into The China Study on 22 June 2007 and they now redirect here. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history; for its talk page, see here
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 21 January 2008. The result of the discussion was No Consensus.

Contents

[edit] Additions

I am currently finishing up this book. As I indicated in my addition, I feel the title is a trifle misleading for the reason cited. Despite the title, the book reviews a substantial volume of past studies. If anything, these take up the bulk of the discussion. The whole idea of the book, as is clear from the book, is its placement within the context of the past scientific literature. This much is immediately clear, I think, to anyone who has read the book.

The second issue is controversy. The authors are aware that their findings will be controversial, and discussion of the hows and whys of this controversy occupy a substantial portion of the book. Saying that one's opponent in a controversy is motivated by a desire to protect his interests is, of course, often used as a kind of ad hominem ploy. The trouble is, what if that happens to be the case? It is reasonable to say that it often is true in the world of public policy and information which can affect the actual financial interests of particular interest groups. Were that not so, there would be no lobbyists in Washington, including those which openly promote the interests of various industries and professions.

It is a key point of the authors that the public needs to be aware of this controversy and the reasons for it. Since that point occupies a major part of the book, it is, I believe, essential to a fair description of the nature of this book.

--Gunnermanz 15:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One Sided

This article is too one-sided. It mentions that the book is controversial, but doesn't offer any rebuttals, or link to any anti-China Story resources. Dilvie 20:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It's a book

I don't think it's the job of a book article to refute that book and I don't think it's one-sided to not put criticisms in this article. You should definitely start a "Criticisms of the China Study" article and even link to it from this one, but the idea that every article about an objective thing must take in both sides of the argument seems silly to me. Atomly 12:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

What's silly is mentioning a controversy, and failing to cover it in the article. Dilvie 19:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added critical review link

I think it's reasonable (more so necessary) to criticize (or link to criticism) a book that claims to be controversial. The article is not developed enough to have an alternate page dedicated to criticisms. I added a link to a "Thumbs Down Book Review." The article is very reasonable about it's criticism. Wikipedia is a place where people start when looking for information. It should provide that information-- on both sides.

Also, I think the title of the article should be changed to "The China Study: Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, and Long-Term Health," since the article is about the book, not the China Study itself. As the article develops, the page titled "The China Study" could be used for the study itself.

--Nate 08:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My experience with Wikipedia is that it's considered standard practice to link to articles that are critical of the viewpoint expressed in the Wikipedia article matter. For example, take a look at the "External links" sections for Raw milk or Soy. As a result, I think the link to the Weston A. Price book review should stay. I just changed the link description to make it a little more clear what the link is about. SweetP112 23:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The "China Study" itself has a page at China Project. This appears to have now been linked into the "China Study" page. "Startling implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-Term Health" is clearly a subtitle (smaller font, etc.) rather than part of the title and Wikipedia article names do not include the subtitle. --Irrevenant [ talk ] 03:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I actually came to Wikipedia specifically to find criticisms of this book, but I am satisfied to have them in links, not in the article itself.

As to the critical review that is linked, I want to note that, according to the bio at the end of his review, Chris Masterjohn, that review's author, does not appear to yet have a degree in medicine and is "the creator and maintainer of Cholesterol-And-Health.Com, a website dedicated to extolling the virtues of cholesterol and cholesterol-rich foods." Although I realize that someone with such a background could have legitimate criticisms, I find some of his to be overbroad.

For example, he complains that Campbell criticizes protein but that he fails to mention "the cannibalism or the swollen bellies of children that accompanies the protein-starved diet of the New Guinea Highlanders." First, calorie-starved might be a better term for those children. I don't think Campbell would argue that children should avoid animal protein if they cannot get sufficient calories any other way. Second and more fundamentally, Campbell does not state that protein consumption should be eliminated as Masterjohn seems to imply, just that consumption of animal-protein should be reduced or eliminated. Vegetable protein, he argues, is more than an adequate substitute. Lucylawful 20:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diabetes Link

There was a recent edit about this, so I'll ask the quesiton here. Doesn't the book claim a relationship between early exposure to casein and the development of type 1 (as opposed to type 2) diabetes? Some sort of autoimmune reaction, IIRC. I haven't looked at it in a while so I'm not sure. Frankg 20:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many quotes...

I put the quotefarm tag because more than half the article consists of quotes. It needs some major pruning.--Boffob 14:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

It was noted more than a year ago that this article is "one sided". Nothing has changed. In fact it appears to be worse with some criticism having been removed. Since the article cites only one source--the book itself--it cannot be said to "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source." Unless, of course, no one has published anything critical of the author's findings, which is hard to believe but if that is the case then it calls into question the notability of the book. Incidentally, many of the section headings and paragraphs begin with "The authors ... ", which is just poor writing. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 08:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

(1) It has not been demonstrated that notable criticism of the book exists.

(2) The article is written with attribution of statements to the authors. Although the flow of the article suffers and I am considering how to improve the flow, this was done so that the article has NO POV at all.

I'm removing both of the tags.

Michael H 34 (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

The tags are a warning to readers and editors that there are unresolved problems with the article. You should not have removed them until the problems were resolved. The POV tag explicitly says, "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." I have replaced both tags and if you remove them again as you did the last time then I will report you as a vandal. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
There are no problems with the article. The article has NO POV. There is no possible dispute on this point. You may add notable criticism if you wish or you may ask that the article be deleted for lack of notability (it is a best seller), but I suggest that you have improperly added tags to this article. I ask you politely to remove them. Michael H 34 (talk) 23:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
I disagree and since we are at an impasse I will submit a request for comment. In the meantime, I am leaving the tags in place. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 05:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RfC: POV & One Source

A user has requested comment on media, art, architecture or literature for this section.
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When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list.

Is the article properly flagged for citing only one source and not fairly representing all significant viewpoints?

For those who wish to make comments, please read the following:

The tags

  • This article does NOT NEED more than one source because the article is about a book, and the article's title is the name of the book, The China Study. If the title of the article were nutrition, then the tag would be appropriate.
  • The article does NOT NEED to include all points of view about nutrition. The title of the article is NOT nutrition. If the title of the article were nutrition, then the POV tag would be more appropriate. This tag is inappropriate.
  • The article is written with attribution to statements and therefore the article has NO POV at all.

Criticism

Yes, I removed a section of the article that was NOT about the book at all. The section I removed was completely Original Research. Again, if the title of the article were nutrition, then including notable and reliable POV about nutrition would be appropriate, but the section removed was not notable and not reliable. Thus, the section removed was off topic, not notable and not reliable, and therefore I boldly removed it. The section removed was misrepresented on this discussion page as criticism of the book.

Criticism of the book is appropriate if it is notable and reliable. Users are free to add appropriate criticism. Criticism is NOT necessary if none exists. Do all articles without criticism merit a POV tag? I strongly suggest NO.

The Main Point

This article is NOT a forum for discussing nutrition. The title of the article is The China Study.

I am expanding this noteworthy article as a gift of my time and energy to Wikipedia. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I get the impression the major issue is that the book's message is unconventional and controversial, but there is no mention of the controversy on the page itself. Frankg (talk) 18:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Michael H 34, your "gift of ... time and energy" does not make you unique nor does it entitle you to ownership of the article. It also does not change the fact that the article still only cites one source and represents only one point of view--essentially that of the authors. No one but you has suggested that the article is a forum for discussing nutrition. The article is about the book and, yes, even articles about books should have more than one source and include criticism. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 08:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
If you wish to add notable and reliable criticism of the book, please do so. If you wish to nominate this article for deletion because you believe that the book is not notable despite its being a bestseller, please do so.
However, it is improper to place these tags if no notable and reliable criticism is available. I do not claim to own the article. Please add the criticism, if you wish. Do not add original research though.
In addition, there is no "dispute" about the point of view of the article. The article has no point of view. The point of view of the authors conveyed through the article is attributed to the authors. Michael H 34 (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
You obviously have invested more time and energy on this article than I have. I don't understand why you don't find the "notable and reliable criticism" yourself. Are you really telling me than none exists? If so, what is your basis for this? I'm not going to go looking for it myself because I don't care to spend my time that way. But you have an obvious interest in the book and the article and so I don't understand what is keeping you from improving the article by including other sources and criticism. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 02:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
BTW, "being a bestseller" is not one of the criteria for notability. I have no great desire to have the article reviewed for notability but at present it doesn't seem to meet the criteria. So, why don't you just improve it? --DieWeisseRose (talk) 02:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I think that I mostly agree with Michael H 34 on this. The article would benefit from a section of "criticism" or "reaction," but I do not agree with DieWeisseRose that the responsibility for writing the section lies with Michael H 34 simply because he is the article's most prolific contributor. The claims made in the article are meticulously cited, and beyond that, I know the claims are made in the book because I read it (I know that does not count for anything in an official sense, but I thought I'd throw it out there). The claims made in this book are controversial and I don't see why it would be hard to find criticism of it. But, like DieWeisseRose, I have little interest in finding it myself. I see no POV problem beyond the fact that no one seems to want to find an alternative POV and that is not the fault of anyone who has thus far added info to the article. The info removed by Michael H 34 was indeed not about the book itself, but about nutrition. I think he was right to remove it.--Hraefen Talk 03:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Let me first say that references citing the book itself is pretty silly. Cites should not be used in this fashion. No one will dispute that the authors claimed what they wrote in their own book. One might dispute the validity of the claims themselves, but that's another story. So I do believe all the references from the book should be gone (or at the very least, replaced by "Ibid, p. n" for all the entries after the first, it's improper style to give the full info (title, authors, etc) every time, and really clogs the reference section), unless there's actual doubt whether the book contains such claims.
Second, I have to agree with the POV tag. Overly long summaries (it's a pity the manual of style practically only covers plot summaries of works of fiction on that issue) are problematic to begin with. In the case of controversial essays like this one, with very little if any mentions of criticisms, such a long description comes out as either endorsement or publicity for the work summarized. The level of detail is not warranted, and no matter how many "the authors claim..." one puts, it still represents an extensive single point of view of the work, that of its authors. "The authors claim..." is not enough to make it neutral. Cut it short, by a lot (the best solution) or add similarly extensive criticisms (doable but tedious, as it will add to the unnecessary length and will just create more controversy).--Boffob (talk) 04:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
IMO (which you asked for :)), a factual description of the book's contents is not POV. There should, however, definitely be a comment somewhere to the effect that the author's claims are not universally accepted in the nutritional community. This may not be a general article on nutrition, but it is an article on a book that makes nutritional claims, and how the book is viewed within the nutritional community is relevant and necessary. Similarly, if the contents of the book run counter to orthodoxy in the field, that is relevant for mentioning in this article.
I don't think criticism is necessary for NPOV, but the context is important. IMO, the POV tag should go, but the Single Source tag should stay until a few more sources can be found. I agree that it isn't Michael's personal responsibility to hunt down other sources, though. --Irrevenant [ talk ] 03:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
No one has suggested that it is Michael H 34's "responsibility" to improve the article. I simply asked why he doesn't do that since he has demonstrated a keen interest in the article and I expressed puzzlement that he has not done so. But I agree he has no duty or repsonsibility to do so and have never suggested otherwise.
Some of the external links demonstrate that other viewpoints about the book exists. By Wikipedia's standards, an article is POV if it does not "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source." If such viewpoints about the book exist then the article is, ipso facto, POV since at present only the authors' viewpoints are represented. If no such viewpoints exist then there is clearly a problem with the notability of this article.
Hraefen writes "The info removed by Michael H 34 was indeed not about the book itself, but about nutrition." I provided two diffs at the beginning of this section. I think the other editor(s) were trying to highlight a contradiction in the book's claims about the thermic effect of food and I question whether Michael H 34's edits were appropriate. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 11:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments.

I disagree with Boffob, who suggested that it would be preferable for the article to provide less information in order to avoid the presentation of a POV. "The authors claim..." IS enough to make the article neutral. The information provided by the article CAN include a POV as long as it is attributed and thus not the POV of the article. I agree that the use of Ibid would be preferable, but this would be problematic if another user wished to add an alternate citation just prior to the Ibid footnote.

The authors' viewpoints are presented. There is nothing wrong with this. The article is neutral and the authors' viewpoints are attributed to the authors.

I ask that the tags be removed while (other) editors add notable and reliable criticism of the book if they wish, and/or nominate the article for deletion. Michael H 34 (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

  • I agree with Irrevenant: the POV tag should go and the single source tag should stay. I still find no problem with the deletion Michael H 34 made concernng thermic effect. I also wondered the accuracy of this claim while reading the book, but the cite provided by the author of that info was not addressing The China Study directly, therefore I think it fits the description of OR. And we have now officially spent more time talking about this than we have spent fixing this "problem." --Hraefen Talk 05:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Thank you for your comments. Best wishes, Michael H 34 (talk) 05:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

To everyone who thinks the POV tag should go: Does the article "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source"? --DieWeisseRose (talk) 08:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This article (about a book) has no POV, so how can a POV tag (about nutrition) be appropriate? Michael H 34 (talk) 15:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Although it is your opinion that the article does not seem to fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source", this is an inappropriate standard for adding this tag, and it is not the consensus opinion. It is inappropriate to imply to the reader that any article, but especially one that does not have any POV at all, does not fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, simply because no editor has yet added notable and reliable criticism. It is possible that no such criticism exists, and yet the POV tag remains. Please add notable and reliable criticism of the book if you wish, but please remove the POV tag. Michael H 34 (talk) 18:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
NPOV says: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and, as much as possible, without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors. " --DieWeisseRose (talk) 19:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The one source tag can stay because, well, it's true. The NPOV tag should go though, because just because there is one source doesn't mean the article is NPOV. NPOV is based on how the information is presented, and the information here doesn't advocate, it only reports. Any balanced article should have more than one source, since the article should not only be about the book, but the book's impact, the response from the readers and critics, it's sales history, etc... and these are facts that cannot be gotten from the book alone. However, as already mentioned, this is not Michael H 34's responsibility; Wikipedia is a group effort, and anyone can contribute only what interest's them if they want to (as long it is verified and notable).--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 13:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for this comment. Best wishes, Michael H 34 (talk) 17:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Michael H 34

[edit] Possible material for a criticism section

I found this essay (http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html) and it seems like a good candidate for starting criticism section because it addresses the book directly. What do y'all think? I wrote this short paragraph based on the essay. --Hraefen Talk 09:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Chris Masterjohn authored an essay critiquing Campbell's conclusions in The China Study and it appeared in Wise Traditions, the quarterly journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation. He says the conclusion that a high-protein diet is conducive to the formataion of liver cancer in people exposed to aflatoxin is flawed because it does not mention "whether the best-fed Pilipino [sic] families ate the many staples of modern affluent diets like refined breads and sugars." He also feels that Campbell's conclusions about casein are flawed because "pasteurization, low-temperature dehydration, high-temperature spray-drying (which creates carcinogens), and fermentation all affect the structure of casein differently and thereby would affect its physiological behavior" He also thinks that even if his conclusions about casein are correct, "any effect of casein... cannot be generalized to other milk proteins, let alone all animal proteins."
If the Masterjohn information is considered notable and reliable, then I suggest that ",a non-profit group that provides information and advocacy in support of the consumption of raw milk and foods high in animal proteins." be added to the first sentence in order to provide information about the Weston A Price Foundation. I also suggest that because Campbell's information about aflatoxin and liver cancer in Phillipino children is currently not included in the article, to include this information in the section on criticism could be confusing to the reader. Best wishes, Michael H 34 (talk) 16:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I'm curious to see if Michael H 34 will accept Masterjohn's stuff on The China Study as a reliable source. I'm not sure I would. He has published peer-reviewed articles on nutrition and other articles in Wise Traditions. But everything he has written on TCS appears to self-published on his own web site.

In any case, some more fundamental criticisms by Masterjohn occur in this paragraph (emphasis added):

Only 39 of 350 pages are actually devoted to the China Study. The bold statement on page 132 that “eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy,”5 is drawn from a broad—and highly selective—pool of research. Yet chapter after chapter reveals a heavy bias and selectivity with which Campbell conducted, interpreted, and presents his research.

--DieWeisseRose (talk) 08:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)--DieWeisseRose (talk) 08:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It is appropriate to include notable and reliable criticism of the book. The criticism should be attributed to the critic, and information about the critic should also be included.

For example, if Masterjohn's criticism is considered notable and reliable (I should not be the one to make this decision), then Masterjohn's qualifications to be a critic and information about the publisher of the criticism should be included along with the criticism. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

[edit] Proposed Nominated for Deletion

I have proposed nominated the article for deletion on notability and fringe theory grounds. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 21:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

--DieWeisseRose (talk) 21:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


I disagree that this article should be deleted. This is not a fringe theory since it is about a popular book, and on top of that the book is based off of published and verifiable scientific research and papers. There is a debate about the content of the book, but the answer should be to include a criticisms section, not deleting the article entirely. The article also needs to be cleaned up and cite different sources, but again, it should be revised, not deleted.
As for notability, just perform a google news archive search and you will find plenty of articles by major newspapers discussing the china study.

[edit] Dubious

T. Colin Campbell is not listed as "Director of The China Project" on the China Project web site or on his Cornell bio. To my knowledge, his book and associated web site is the main source of the claim that he is the Director. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 00:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Dubious? I don't see on that link that he is the director. But maybe you should try following the 'publications' link and searching for 'campbell'. His name comes up in basically all of the publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.106.224.20 (talk) 00:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

So, what is your point? --DieWeisseRose (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
My point was it is reasonable to trust the book when it says he is director. Anyways, that is irrelevant since I took a look at the cornell bio page you linked and found this:
"Organized and directed a multi-national project responsible for nationwide surveys of diet, lifestyle and mortality in the People's Republic of China (1983-present)"
Looks like that clears things up, doesn't it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.52.218.45 (talk) 03:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Not hardly. It is not clear that the China Project is even active any more and a reference on a bio page that perhaps Campbell controls is hardly more compelling than Campbell's self-serving claims in his book and associated web site. Why isn't he listed as the Director on the Project web site? --DieWeisseRose (talk) 05:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The question of why he isn't listed on a particular website is irrelevant. Michael H 34 (talk) 05:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

It is very relevant when it is the web site of the project he claims to be the Director of. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 05:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I added a reliable source for T. Colin Campbell's position with Cornell and his status as "one of the directors" of the China Project. Michael H 34 (talk) 17:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Way dubious. this article smacks of dubiousness. talks all about cholesterol and does not even mention good cholesterol vs. bad cholesterol (ie. LDL and HDL ) Secondly, a study of 220 million people or something like that, is just riiidiculous to begin with. (my emphasis on riiidiculous.) think about Nielson ratings. you get a statistically representative sample of the entire American TV watching population from only a few thousand people. This 'article' throws up more red flags than i care to mention. What about the Inuit (eskimos) who subsist on virtually nothing but whale blubber? are they dying left and right of all these diseases? i digress.

[edit] References

Since most are from the book itself (again, I don't think that's proper, unless there is question whether the author(s) made the statements in the book or not), can't the subsequent ones be reduced to "Campbell, page x" (or something to that effect)? It really is not good form to have the same book listed completely each time. ETA: consider the notes and references section of Foie gras for example. It's a much nicer way to approach repeated entries.--Boffob (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)