Talk:The Carpenters

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Carpenters article.
Article policies
To-do list for The Carpenters: edit · history · watch · refresh

Here are some tasks you can do:
Priority 1 (top) 
The Carpenters is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.

Contents

[edit] Japanese text?

What is this text - copied from Edit:Carpenters, and invisible on page:

ja:カーペンターズ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heenan73 (talk • contribs)

06:12, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Carpenters v. The Carpenters

My recollection is that they started out as "The Carpenters" but at some point the artist billing on albums was changed to "Carpenters". If that's correct either reason is .appears to have at least a semiofficial status, called "The Carpenters" (capital T). A final reasonall those links won't have to be changed. Right now there are many more links to "The User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 06:12, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

They were always 'Carpenters', right back to their first A&M release ('Offering'); links will auto-forward, not perfect, perhaps, but will allow people to find what they seek. And finally, it is surely more important to be right and accurate than go for convenience (let alone the dread 'It's Aways Been This Way!!). Just, as they say, 'my2cents' Heenan73 10:24, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
While researching to respond to your points, I found a new 'official site', http://www.richardandkarencarpenter.com/ (added to external links) which also supports 'Carpenters'. Cheers, Heenan73 11:03, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

While "Carpenters" is the correct title, the name on the star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, (a few yards from the Kodak theater), is "The Carpenters". The star was issue on Oct. 12, 1983, according to Tony Tay's website.204.80.61.10 13:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk

[edit] Barbie

I seem to remember a controversy in the early 1990s because somebody made a movie about their careers and Karen's death using stop-action Ken and Barbie dolls instead of actors. If anybody knows anything more about this, it should really be in the article. --Christofurio 00:00, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

No sooner said than done! I've added a link to a review page, too. And the DVD is available too [1] - I've not added that to the page, as I really do not know the legality - They may have redone the soundtrack. Or Not. Heenan73 10:44, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Previous edits?

What happened to the earlier edits/versions of this article? I wrote about 90% of this (nearly every word except for the penultimate paragraph), but I don't see any indication of those contributions in the page's history. RBrown 02:59, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In reviewing the recent history of the article, it appears that all of the earlier edits were lost when the article was redirected from "The Carpenters". The cited version from October 15, 2003, was essentially a stub, and not the version that was transferred to the present entry. The subsequent history of additions and edits appears to be lost. RBrown 04:51, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My guess is that Heenan73 "moved" the article by copying the entire text and cutting and pasting it into this title, instead of using the "Move this page" function from the menu at the left. The latter method would have brought along the edit history. That leaves me with two questions, though. First, why isn't the old history shown at The Carpenters? A proper move would've transferred the edit history along with the text, but a cut-and-paste shouldn't have deleted the edit history. Second, given that the text got here (somehow) on July 18, what was it that Tom moved on July 25, as suggested by his edit summary for the only entry remaining in the edit history at The Carpenters? I'll leave a note for Tom to ask him if he can clarify. JamesMLane 03:45, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
All fixed now - history merged. Tom- 13:39, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. RBrown 01:57, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Question about lyrics

Why did they put the line "Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near" in both their hit songs We've Only Just Begun and Close To You? Was there a significance or what? Mike H 00:01, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

The line appears only in "(They Long to Be) Close To You". It does not appear in "We've Only Just Begun". However, on the Carpenters' hits collection, The Singles: 1969-1973, the duo recorded an intro track that consisted of the opening line of "Close To You" (which you quoted above) followed by an instrumental segue into the album's first selection, "We've Only Just Begun". The intro track was not identified as a separate track on the LP, and that may be the source of your misunderstanding. RBrown 03:50, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:15, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] If I Were A Carpenter

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that in the mid-90s a bunch of alternative bands (like Sonic Youth and Bettie Serveert) recorded a tribute-album to the Carpenters, called If I were a Carpenter...

And it is mentioned. -- Skierpage 05:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doubts about "Billboard" article

It is stated in the article on the Carpenters, that Karen Carpenter weight problems might have started after reading a "Billboard" article that described her as "Richard's 'chubby' sister". While this article is referred to in the 1979 tv movie, and Debbie Vaiuso, (a friend of Karen's), metioned it on a VH-1 documentary, there is also strong evidence it was Never written. Randy Schmidt, (music teacher and Carpenters' fan), wrote the book; "Yesterday Once More", (2000), which lists many of the articles written about the Carpenters from 1971 to 1998. It does not have the "Rolling Stone" review; "The family that plays together", and it does not have the "Billboard" article that describes Karen as "chubby". According to Mr. Schmidt: "No such article was ever written". Richard Carpenter told him that it was just put into the tv movie by the scriptwriters as "poetic licence". Ms. Vaiuso might have seen the movie and thought it was based on a real incident. "Billboard Magazine" also denys publishing any review that described Karen Carpenter as "chubby".204.80.61.10 15:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk204.80.61.10 15:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Per comment above, I removed this:
(Her obsession with weight loss apparently began after she read a review in Billboard magazine that dubbed her "Richard's chubby sister".)
There are some "chubby" references out there:
Indeed, as far back as 1971, when the Carpenters were soaring on their early hits, Karen was "psychotic about her weight," an acquaintance recalls. "She had a classic pear-shaped figure -- she was chubby, and she was very self-conscious about it."
  • Eric Levin, Suzanne Adelson, Gail Buchalter and Joseph Pilcher (February 21, 1983). A Sweet Surface Hid A Troubled Soul In The Late Karen Carpenter, A Victim Of Anorexia Nervosa. People Magazine.
Looking for one when she was alive. Billboard story does not check out. Jokestress 15:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "She's Out of My Life" inspired by Karen Carpenter

According to "The Carpenters, The Untold Story" by Ray Coleman; the song "She's Out of My Life", (sung by Michael Jackson and written by Tom Bahler), was inspired by Karen Carpenter breaking up with Tom Bahler after she found out that he had fathered a child with another woman.204.80.61.10 16:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk

[edit] The Nine Unreleased Karen Carpenter Solo Songs

Here are the nine Karen Carpenter solo songs, (made between 1979 to 1980), that can only be found as "bootleg copies", since there is no chance of an "official release", Richard Carpenter does not think they are good enough to warrent one. The cost of including the songs on a "official release" CD, also has to be taken into consideration. The consensus of most of the the people who have heard them is that they range from good to very good. (1) "Love making love to you", (2) "Don't try to win me back", (3) "Something's missing", (4) "Keep my lovelight burning", (5) "Midnight", (6) "Jimmy Mack", (7) "I do it for your love", (8) "Truly yours", and (9) "It's really you". Try e-bay or Carpenters' internet disscussion sites to get a copy. In addition, there are rumors that Karen Carpenter recorded "Basket case", "Church choir (Wild)", and "You're no good", but, there is no definite evidence that she did.24.195.52.131 07:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk

[edit] Neutrality disputed?

Yesterday a neutrality flag was placed on the page, but this article seems neutral to me. In terms of claims about the Carpenters sales and success, I have done some research using the RIAA and other sources and pulled up the following facts:

* 8 Gold Albums and 10 Gold Singles in America. * Over 90 million records sold worldwide. * The #1 best selling American group between 1970 and 1980. * In their first year, from July 1970 to June 1971, the Carpenters had four top five hits: (Close To You, We've Only Just Begun, For All We Know, and Rainy Days & Mondays), twice as many as any other artists during that same period. * One of the best selling duos of all time, along with Simon & Garfunkel, the Everly Brothers, and Hall & Oates. * Second on the list of "Artists With The Most #2 Hits": The Carpenters had 5, Elvis Presley had 6. * Fourth on the list of "Top Charting Artists of the 70s" after Elton John, Paul McCartney and the Bee Gees. * Close To You reached number 1 on Billboard's chart just 6 weeks after its release and stayed number 1 for 4 weeks, from July 25 - August 15, 1970. The song knocked down Three Dog Night's Mama Told Me Not To Come from the #1 position (where it had been for 2 weeks), and was displaced on August 22 by Bread's Make It With You. --User:DanielLevitin, 28, May, 2006

Removed tag, since no reason was given here for its inclusion. Jokestress 15:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] THE Carpenters

Just so everyone knows, I moved "Carpenters" to "The Carpenters" in order to keep with Wikipedia's naming policies. See The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. Now of course, White House should not be moved to "The White House". It's just a naming convention particular to bands, books, etc. If you have any objections to this feel free to talk about it here or contact me. Thanks AdamBiswanger1 20:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It has since been moved back. Personally, I'm ambivalent about the name change. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 22:29, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Karen Carpenter article

I believe Karen Carpenter deserves an article in her own right, apart from the Carpenters article. See Patti LaBelle, which was until rather recently part of the LaBelle singing group article. It has been merged back twice, and the edit summary given for the last merge was not exactly sufficient. If there are problems with diction and tone, FIX instead of merge. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 20:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Also agree Karen deserves her own article

Karen deserves her own article as she had her own identity outside of the group, particularly because of her struggle with anorexia (which subsequently caused her death). Until Karen's struggle became known, most people had not heard of eating disorders.

Strongly Agree:It is difficult to find particular information of Richard or Karen. Carpenters should keep as an article of a band. Richard Carpenter and Karen Carptenter should have their own article. Astor Lam

[edit] Why can't I just read a wikipedia article on Karen ?

This article is a real pain and a load of rubbish. I don't want to know about her brother or the songs they sang. Search for Karen Carpenter and you come here. Huh ?

[edit] Photos of Karen in early 80's

I can understand that we want to document "the decline of Karen Carpenter" that lead to her death, but we have to limit the number of picture or the text becomes difficult to follow. For now, I have limited it to one because I have her death its own section. The whole "after carpenters" section also still needs work. It should be more than a timeline. -- 64.175.42.87 00:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is much too focused on the success that Carpenters had in the US. It is not true to say that by 1975 their albums were not charting as highly as before. Indeed the 'Horizon' album was a very successful number one album in the United Kingdom during the Summer of 1975. The band's 1969 - 1973 best of also continued selling well in the UK, as did their 1978 Gold Volume 2 Best Of. Success in the UK only tailed off with the arrival of Punk / New Wave at the end of the 70s.


"Horizon" is possibly the Carpenters' biggest selling album worldwide. It charted extremely high in every country around the world - including #1 (for seven weeks) in the UK and #1 in Japan. "Horizon" was also a huge seller in the U.S. having been certified Platinum. - posted by Rick Henry

[edit] Karen Carpenter article

I applaud the decision to branch off Karen Carpenter into her own article; indeed, she was a notable subject in her own right. However, almost all of her struggle with anorexia is missing from this article. Can someone add to it? It'd be helpful. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 01:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I've moved a bunch of what appear to be nothing more than fan-site links over here.

the carpenters international fan site/Keep in touch with old Newvillers. TCIFS (talk) 21:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


This stuff doesn't generally belong on WikiPedia. If I accidentally moved something important, feel free to move it back. Otherwise, these should probably all just be tossed. Fan-site links are for, well, fan sites. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. ~~ Xtifr tälk 23:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a lot are back. Please read Wikipedia:External links, people: fan sites generally fall under the to-be-avoided category of external links. -- Scientizzle 20:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Street addresses?

Are the exact addresses of the Carpenters' houses really necessary? Perhaps just the street names is better.

No street addresses is best. Wikipedia is not a travel guide. Clarityfiend 20:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yesterday Once More

is the 1998 version of the above the same as the 1985 version as if so there is a repetition i can't seem to find a track listing for the 1985 version Dommccas 13:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

At Grant Guerrero's Carpenters website: "Page 4: The Compilation Albums", the difference between the 1998 release of "Yesterday Once More" and the 1985 release is the addition of the song; "I Just Fall in Love Again" and the songs are in different order. That's it.204.80.61.110 15:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

[edit] WikiProject

If you are interested in starting a group that edits Carpenters pages, click here and add your user name. Let us make the Carpenters' pages better with the WikiProject Carpenters! The Obento Musubi (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:The Carpenters Photo Shoot.jpg

Image:The Carpenters Photo Shoot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Rk74rg1.jpg

I find it impossible to believe that Image:Rk74rg1.jpg is being used legally. The photo was taken for Rolling Stone Magazine which is not know for releasing images for use in Wikipedia The fair use statement is full of errors. As such I had to tag the image for deletion. Dbiel (Talk) 02:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charts?

What happened to the table of the Carpenters chart history? It had Billboard Hot 100, Billboard AC, UK, Canada, Australia, Japan etc.... and has now disappeared. Jarrod76 (talk) 01:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC) 13 December 2007

It's been moved to List of songs by the Carpenters, as the main article had gotten too big. MeegsC | Talk 08:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notes and references/Bibliography

Because of the large number of references that were being used and cited multiple times (especially for the Ray Coleman book) I changed the section headings to a combined Notes and references section and changed References to Bibliography and then used Harvard referencing style in the inline citation notes (for Coleman only) because it makes that section much easier to read I think. All of the Coleman ref names are the same, any future refs from that source can use the same format.

The {{wikicite}} template is not used much but I think it makes sense here. A reader can click on the citation, go to Notes and references and then click the link and the full Bibliography information is available. Awotter (talk) 02:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for changing it! All help is appreciated. — ObentoMusubi - Contributions 05:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

Hello, I will be reviewing this article for GA candidancy. So far it passes the quick fail criteria, so a full review is forthcoming. Thanks, and good luck! FamicomJL (talk) 00:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

So, what's the update? It's been a week already! — ObentoMusubi - Contributions 08:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
My apologies, it's just been a hectic week for me. So far the article, from the two run throughs I gave it, looks fine. Later today I will give it a third run through. I'll just do it now. Can't sleep! :)
  • I see that some things are cited in the lead, which is okay, but just leave it at those citations only. Most leads should not need any citations, or little at all. The lead in this looks okay though, so just leave it for now.
  • "Their first compilation album was entitled The Singles: 1969-1973 and it topped the charts in the U.S. and the United Kingdom and became one of the best-selling albums of the decade, ultimately selling more than 7 million copies in the U.S. alone" -- this needs to be cited.
I tried citing it with the RIAA website, but it won't let me add it. :( — ObentoMusubi - Соитяівцтіоиѕ 17:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
YesY Done. — ObentoMusubi - Соитяівцтіоиѕ 23:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • The whole "The late 70's" section could really use citations, most all statements are unsourced.
  • "Ending popularity" section could also really use citations, most all statements are unsourced.
  • "Karen's sudden death" section could also really use citations. I see someone tried to add a citation needed tag in the article, but didn't do a good job in adding it. :)
  • "Post Carpenter's" section also needs citations.
  • "The superior technical quality of the recordings, the sorrowful undercurrents in many of their songs and the pain in Karen's voice as well as her life have attracted many fans." Very POV-ish, especially with no citation.
  • "It's been said that her signature vocals helped spur more alto singers into pop music such as Anne Murray, Rita Coolidge, and Melissa Manchester." "It's been said" is a very weasel-ish term.
  • So far I see that all of the images that are not in the infobox have no fair use rationales, which are needed. This is one thing that will need to be corrected.
  • Another thing I noticed right away is that references 51 and 52 are youtube links. Youtube videos are I'm pretty sure things that you're not able to source. Taking them out is recommended, as you don't really need to source those two things.
  • Reference 69 is undated. Please date it in some way. Just the year would be fine.

For now, I will place this article On Hold. You have about a week to meet all of the above requirements. Please send me a message on my talkpage if you have any questions, or if the above requirements have been met. Thank you! FamicomJL (talk) 07:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

For Billboard Hot 100, italize Billboard. Thank you. --BritandBeyonce (talk) 12:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
YesY Done. — ObentoMusubi - Соитяівцтіоиѕ 23:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA fail

Article fails because this the on hold status is WAY past a week old... fix all the above issues and feel free to nominate this article again. Good luck! FamicomJL (talk) 21:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:220px-Carpenters_-_Nixon_-_Office.png

Question: if you look at the german wikipedias carpenters article, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carpenters , the same picture as on this is presented, BUT on that image, nixon is present, all other details, her hair, how she holds her hands, etc, are exactly the same. Have nixon been removed from the image on the english wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.227.40.177 (talk) 22:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, somebody decided to crop Nixon's face out for this article, which is fine with me because this is an article about The Carpenters, not The Carpenters and Richard Nixon. If you wish Nixon's face be placed on this image, just tell me and give me valid reasons why you think it should be so. — ObentoMusubi - Соитяівцтіоиѕ 23:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not have a problem with the cropping of the image. it's the retouching I do not like, for example if it was just cropped, you would still se Nixons shoulder, but as you can se the edge of the image has been (poorly) retouched so even that isn't there any longer. So it's more of a montage than an image. actually photoshopping parts of the image to remove things gives pretty bad vibes, I mean, it's innocent enough, just a shoulder, not an entire trotsky, but still. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.235.0.157 (talk) 10:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Timerichardsolo.jpg

Image:Timerichardsolo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Carpatchrist77.jpg

Image:Carpatchrist77.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Carpenters LOGO.png

Image:Carpenters LOGO.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Former featured article?

As far as I know, this article was not a featured article before, but the title indicates it is a B-class article, but once a featured article. Why is this? –The Obento Musubi (Contributions) 20:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)