Talk:The Big O

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Good article The Big O has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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[edit] Revised lead section

I just did some editing to the lead section. I'm new at this, so I'd appreciate any mistakes I may have made be pointed out so I don't make them again.

I hope this to be the first of my contributions to The Big O article. This is one of my all-time favorite animes, and I'd like this article to reach A-status.

--- The before was an unsigned comment, from I don't know who, sorry.

>>>Here's hoping. Also, if someone could look at Dastun's profile, that last sentence is niggling at me as awkward, but I don't know how to make it flow better.

13:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)~

Or add a little something to fill the white space. Same with all the others, with the exception of Dorothy. In fact, Dastun's profile merits a re-write. The whole section was kind of a last minute edit for earning the GA-status and I haven't look at it since.--Nohansen 13:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


23:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)24.199.154.18 23:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Regarding the lead section/introduction information (and I am desprately trying to find evidence, hence the notation here and not an edit to the article) - I am positive that in the mid-90's (I want to say 1996) is when the first thirteen Big O episodes aired in the USA, on Cartoon Networks "Toonami" in the afternoon, around 3pm CST. It aired on and off for a few months, every weekday, then vanished till the re-emergance date, which did well enough to earn the second season. So far, I have not had any luck in finding proof (even IMDB has the later date), so I've emailed Toonami directly, hoping for a reply.23:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)24.199.154.18 23:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plot summary

The plot section has been revised, but far from complete. I'm thinking some sub-sections about the factions in Paradigm (Paradigm Corporation, the Military Police, and The Union) should be included. So, anyone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nohansen (talk • contribs) .

It should be noted that we don't write plot summaries in order to summarize every detail of a show. WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information part 7 says: "Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic."
You might want to check out the guideline WP:WAF about this. -- Ned Scott 00:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the plot summary needs revision, it should be a summary of the show. Right now, it does not tell me anything about what the show is about.68.34.48.184 (talk) 04:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I know there's always room for improvement, but the plot summary (as it is) should tell you what the series is about. Forty years prior to the events of the series, disaster struck. The world was turned into a vast desert wasteland and the survivors were left without memories. The story takes place in Paradigm City, a corporate police state run by the Paradigm Corporation. [...] The first half of the series is episodic. Each [episode] revolves around different citizens of Paradigm dealing with the resurgence of lost Memories and how they manage to go on living without knowledge of what did or did not happen. And a little bit from the lead, The series follows Roger Smith, Paradigm City's top Negotiator. He provides this much needed service with the help of an android named R. Dorothy Wayneright and his butler Norman Burg. When the need arises, Roger calls upon Big O, a giant relic from the city's history that may hold the key to its future.
If you want details, you should watch the show (if you haven't already) since the Animanga Manual of Style asks for "a succinct description of the plot" while avoiding "excessive details of twists and turns in the story".--Nohansen (talk) 04:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't really want to take a side here, but: List of The Big O media has brief summaries of the basic situation of each episode. Right now they're kind of vague and possibly advertisement-ish, but they could possible be improved to give a better idea of what the series is about. There's also Wikia:Anime, which currently doesn't have any Big O articles at all. --DocumentN (talk) 05:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
If someone (meaning, "not me") could expand the episode summaries in List of The Big O media that'd be great. Maybe then we could split the List of The Big O episodes and nominate it for WP:FLC following Sephiroth BCR 's examples.--Nohansen (talk) 05:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Paradigm City article

I propose the Setting section be split into its own article. The article is getting kinda big, and since "Setting" is the biggest section it makes sense (to me). In a separate article it could be better edited and serves its purpose(s) better. Heck, Gotham has its own article. Why not Paradigm?--Nohansen 13:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

i Particularily agree to the splitting of paradigim city its too long and if someone was lookin for something might not want an exhuberently long article--Spartan117009 22:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to main article

I tried to avoid it, I don't like deleting other people's work, but some things just had to go. Other, were out of place. If someone would start work on SteveA026's suggested List of allusions in The Big O, they could be reincorporated.--Nohansen 15:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nom

This seems like a very good article to me. The only things I can point is that the writing, if good, is sometimes a little weak, specially in the lead. And the text about the characters should wrap to get rid of the white space. Ah, also, I'm sure the first sentence of the "style" part could be rephrased to make sure it is not OR at all. I'll come back for a more thorough review. Cheers!--SidiLemine 16:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Here are some problems that I have found:

Writing:

  • contractions: didn't, wouldn't, doesn't, wasn't, don't, there's, it's, he'd. No more contractions.
  • Wikipedia:Words to avoid: however. No more "howevers".
  • User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_1a#Eliminating_redundancy additives: also, more, finally. Also done.
  • "40 Years" - Sentences should not start with numbers - should be "Forty years" - and should not start with "And". Did it.
  • Years are wikilinked with no context. Removed wikilink.

Context:

  • There is some in-universe prose - "Forty years ago" - in-universe, "Forty years before the commencement of the story" - out-universe. Correct in some places but not in others. Corrected where needed.
  • "But they manage to make do and go on living, trying their hardest at a life without knowledge of what did or didn't happen." - this line could be moved out of the lead section, perhaps into plot. Worked the line into the plot, removed from lead.
  • "The Big O revolves around the concept of memories" - The Big O is a character as well as the name of the show. What is "revolving around" a concept? Reword. (Like "The Big O's main theme is the concept of memories.") Reworded as suggested.
  • "just like nightmares," Roger says, "can appear when you least expect them." - what episode(s) is this from? You can use that as a footnote. Is this what (Act:04) and (Act:10) refer to? It isn't clear to the reader. Changed all instances of (Act:??) to quotes.
  • Reception section could be moved higher in the article. Didn't move it. I used as example Excel Saga, and now Serial Experiments Lain, and both have Reception section near the end.
  • The Big O: Season One and The Big O: Season Two could just be season one and season two (lower case). Did it.
  • References could be displayed in two columns. Did it, but isn't showing. Any idea why?
  • "The season ends by introducing elements that will come into play during Season Two. The existence of people outside of Paradigm City. The book "Metropolis" written by Gordon Rosewater, Paradigm's founder. The World destroyed by a Cataclysm. The Power of God wielded by Man. Giant robots run amok. The truth, the lies, behind them all." - Maybe this should be all one sentence separated by semicolons. It doesn't make sense if the reader doesn't understand the context. These aren't proper sentences by themselves, join them somehow or make them bullet points. Done.
  • What is "an over-reaching storyline"? Changed to "continuous."
  • "These episodes move Alex Rosewater, CEO of the Paradigm Corporation, center stage as a direct antagonist to The Negotiator. It also introduces The Union, a new faction in the War of Paradigm City. In Season Two, Paradigm City becomes a grand stage where past, and future, memories play themselves out." - These sentences are narration. When text uses narration it stops being an encyclopedia article and starts being a review. Please reword. Lines such as "and started bouncing ideas off each other", "there was nothing quite like it" and "When word came the series would be shortened to 13" are also untidy. All done.
  • There are quotes by themselves with no context at all. I'm not sure if that violates WP policy, but I haven't seen in on an anime article before, especially in any of our Good/Featured articles. Removed the quotes.
  • city, community, pets - linked but do they add to the article by providing context? I think these words are common enough to exclude wikilinks to their articles. Removed the links.
  • section headings: "The Style" section - A couple of points, wikipedia section do not ever start with "the". There should be context at the start of this section. A short sentence on what the section is about. The influences section (should just be Influences) has a line that does this but it has a problem "The similarities between Batman and The Big O are many" - how many? See User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_1a#Eliminating_redundancy Rearranged the style and influences sections.
  • "pastiche" needs a wikilink. Linked "pastiche"

--Squilibob 10:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I made the changes as suggested. What I couldn't figure out how to change where the "episode notes." How should it be done? Change to "(See Act:01)"? Add a reference that reads "See Act:01"; or maybe add it to Notes section? An example would be nice. Ah, also: I tried to display the references in columns, but its not working.--Nohansen 14:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Please see Madlax, Serial Experiments Lain and Planetes for good examples on how to quote episodes.--SidiLemine 16:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the examples. Now I'm done with the quotes.--Nohansen 22:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Very good work overall. I personally see no objections left to GA, and I think it should go to FAC after another peer review (announcing the FAC intention). Maybe list it with the good folks of the League of Extraordinary Copyeditors in the meantime, to ensure good text quality. --SidiLemine 09:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured?

I'm wondering: What does an article need to be featured? 'Cause right now, I'm just about tapped out of ideas on what to do with the article.--Nohansen 04:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not let the Featured article candidate commentators tell you? But before you do that, you might want to clean up Paradigm City. The FAC regulars do not like it when the "summary" of the daughter article is better sourced and/or written the daughter article itself. If I know Sandy, you're going to get an earful for wrapping {{main}} around such an article. See the FAC page for Germany if you don't believe me (hint: Type in Ctrl+F, type in "Education", and then press "Next" three times.).--Rmky87 00:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the only thing that would be a problem, apart from the main articles above, would be the amount of print sources. The "FAC people" give a lot more value to print sources (be it essays, books, magazines, or dictionnaries) than they do to websites. One or two magazione interviews (newtype USA comes to mind), and an essay (be it by an undergraduate, the trick is to have "p. 36" somwhere :) - be sure to archive this talk page before you go to FAC!). On this matter, the ISBN for "The Big O Visual", ref n°31, is lacking. If you ask me, add 5 print sources, add some more sources to the Paradigm City article, reduce the size of the Big O template (maybe make it two columns?), and it's pretty much guaranteed FA status sooner or later.--SidiLemine 09:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I was actually just wondering why none of the sources in this article's summary were in the daughter article. I'm embarrassed to say that I never thought of those other things.--Rmky87 06:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
From the looks of things, you're going to have to actually buy this book, if you haven't already, because I couldn't find the ISBN anywhere. A good page to add a specific page number from that book would be the first note in the section I created for the footnotes. The featured article commentators really hate when you force them to look through an entire book for one lousy fact, which is why articles with references at the bottom get FARC'd for having no inline citations. And don't be surprised if professional copyeditor types point out a whole laundry list of prose problems. I didn't see any, but I'm not one of them.--Rmky87 18:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Added the ISBN-10 number. If it matters, the ISBN-13 number is 978-4575295795. See here.--Nohansen 19:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Ref #24 looks like it should be in the notes section, with the reference in cite.php and a {{ja icon}} or some other such warning to English readers somewhere! Seriously, I had absolutely no idea until I saw the Amazon page.--Rmky87 06:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
You mean the one about "Good guys still wear black"? I'm not sure what your comment is referring to. The 24th result of the Google search mentioned? --DocumentN (talk) 20:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
One thing to watch for (in this and other articles) is a link on the "What links here" pages to the Magazine or Reference library for the project. In this case, there's one linking to Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Magazines/Newtype USA/2003, which means there is at least some coverage of this topic in that issue. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roger Smith

I have seen all the episodes of Big O and something keeps on getting me, how old is Roger Smith? I have heard that he 25, 30, and 40. He helped Gordon Rosewater rebuild Paradigm after the Event(as seen in picture I think form episode 25) which means he must be old. He doesn't have gray hair. Could date Dorothy. Around episode 13 and 14, his flash back suggested that he was poor 40 years ago and the same age that he is now. Also, is the real Roger Smith an actor? Big O was a comic on the back of a newspaper and it was a play. Another thing is Roger being an android. His he? There was a mass production of Roger's in episode 26. Tell me what you think.--RogerSmith026 01:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The Android bits were symbolism (not 'symbology'). The original Roger Smith was a Negotiator who assisted with the founding of Paradigm city, right? Well, there were a series of experiments to re-produce Roger Smith by infusing various children with Smith's memories (The whole tomato discussion). One of the experiments succeeded, producing a new Roger Smith. The Flashback scenes were all in his head while he was unconscious, the entire scenario the result of the implanted memory.

Long story short: Roger Smith is Jesus. Not Catholic Jesus, not South Baptism Jesus, no, not even Raptor Jesus. He's GNOSTIC Jesus. Yay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.176.185.207 (talk) 16:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

But I thought Roger turned out to not be one of the tomatoes? Although that would only muddy the waters even more. 86.149.123.70 12:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The tomatoes had the lost memory's of paradigm's prominent citizens not Roger Smith's. Roger's is not one of the tomatoes and his true origin is never fully explained--75.168.110.65 04:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold (hang on!)

Sorry, the reviewer forgot to put the tag on the candidates page. Wiki-newbie 20:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Squilibob? --SidiLemine 09:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Wiki-newbie 16:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time to comb over the article again. If someone wants to review the GA nom then that would be great. --Squilibob 01:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I feel the article meets all GA criteria, and all objections have been actioned. So I hereby declare this article a Good Article, until it reaches FA status, or until fanboy additions make it unreadeable. Congrats everyone!--SidiLemine 15:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RhynCheck Clear

This article has been RhynChecked and found to be clear of deadlinks! :D Rhynri 02:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musical Allusions

I've mentioned this at the List of Allusions page, but I'll mention it here too. The soundtrack of The Big O! is packed full of references to other works, and I'd like to see it mentioned in the main article, if we can find citations.

The track Respect is a clear nod to the music of 60's British adventure shows like The Prisoner and Danger Man, while the theme Stand a Chance is a reworking of Vangelis' Blade Runner End Titles. Meanwhile False has more than a hint of Connery-era James Bond about it, and the main theme is, of course, a clear homage to Queen's Flash! I wouldn't know where to begin to look for references to this stuff, but it's definitely in there. Kelvingreen 15:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"Respect", the second season opening, is a nod to Gerry Anderson's UFO. Watch them (UFO, Big O) and see the similarities on the music and title sequence.
See Talk:List of allusions in The Big O.
This article could use a section on the music. I added a bit on the influence of jazz and film noir but it could use something on the production, too. Maybe that could help the article get on its way to being featured.--Nohansen 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Aha. UFO it is (it's almost identical, isn't it?). Well I wasn't far off with the 60's. Only one decade!
I'd love to get started on a music section, but frankly, there's no use saying "Respect is a nod to the UFO theme" without a citation to back it up because no matter how obvious and true it is, citations are everything around here! That said, we may be able to get away with using that quote you've used on the other talk page to cover a more general discussion of the music used. I'll have a think about it. Thanks for replying! Kelvingreen 21:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've added a small section on the music under Influences, mentioning the opening themes, as they're the most obvious examples of outside influence. I'd say we can leave the more exhaustive list to the List of allusions in The Big O page; I've made a start over there too. Kelvingreen 09:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Hate to tell you this, but the theme songs are already covered in the List of The Big O media. Check the bit just before the Manga adaptation section.--Nohansen 14:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there's room for both, especially as that's a separate article. Similarly, that article is about spin-off media, while this section is about creative influences; if anything, I'd say that the info about the musical influences belongs here rather than there, but as I say, I think there's room for both. Kelvingreen 09:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FreeWebs Spam?

I don't think this page means that Wikipedia considers all FreeWebs pages spam. FreeWebs is just a free web host like Geocities or Tripod. Besides, many other sites are listed here that are not necessarily spam, such as YouTube, Angelfire, FreeBSD.org, and Yahoo Groups. --SteveA026 17:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

That may be, but I'm not taking any chances. When I nominate this article for Featured status, I want to make sure it gets promoted on the first try. And besides, it's not like the "Season 3 FAQ" offers any worth noting information (not already covered in the article)--Nohansen 18:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Fine, fine. Given the amount of information in the article, the same could be said about the other two fansites (oddly, one has a description and the other doesn't), but you're the boss. --SteveA026 16:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-release of season 2 boxed set?

Does anyone know if there is going to be a re-release of the second season boxed set like the new Anime Legends release of season one? Argel1200 23:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

According to Amazon it's coming out August 21st. Argel1200 13:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ask, and ye shall receive

Behold! ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, now we need to incorporate these into The Big O episodes. -Babelious 20:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Video games

Anyone know why the sentence mentioning Super Robot Wars Destiny and Sunrise World War was removed in this edit? --DocumentN (talk) 20:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Because the section is named "Adaptations" and neither Super Robot Wars Destiny or Sunrise World War are adaptations of The Big O or based on it. The are (loosely) related media.--Nohansen (talk) 21:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
For that matter, the manga series can't really be an adaptation of the anime either, if it was produced in parallel and has a completely different plot. Maybe the section should be called "Other media"? --DocumentN (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The manga was created based on the creators' (Sato, Katayama and Konaka) ideas and published early to build up interest in the TV series. It says so on the back of the book, too ("In this comic adaptation of the cartoon series"). The manga and the novel are based on the series, while those videogames are separate franchises; it doesn't seem right to lump them together. Maybe a separate section for "Media" could do (like in Giant Robo OVA). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nohansen (talk • contribs) 21:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)