Talk:Thanksgiving/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
  1. November 2001 – October 2006
  2. November 2006 – September 2007

Contents

Christmas shopping?

How weird. I'm British and came to this article to discover what this day is all about. Third paragraph it starts talking about shopping! Not only that but Christmas shopping. Duh? Are there any editors with an improved sense of priorities? Let's have the meaning of the day first, please, and more about what happens one the day. What the shops are doing is somewhat unreal. ~Ferdinangus

I agree, since that sentence seems irrelevant to the rest of the paragraph, but I don't know where it should be moved. AndyZ 17:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Andy, I'm American, and think that an article about Thanksgiving that includes Christmas shopping as part of the description and describes it as second to Halloween, of all absurd things, in importance is nuts. Clearly someone has a narrow world view formed entirely in suburban shopping malls. Halloween, for the infomation of the idiot who thinks it is a more important "holiday", is not a holiday at all. Despite its popularity with children who like candy, guys who like to dress as women, and housewives who like to decorate, it is not a legal holiday.

~~Katie- I'm in 8th grade and i used to use wikipedia for all my research, but now i don't. Anyone can change it.

Added a site that is aimed at CHILDREN and although some of you may feel that everything in this encyvlopedia has to have a "complicated" and "difficult" level of language for it to be accepted I strongly disagree. Animated Thanksgiving is aimed at young children. For those of you who have young kids and try to explain what Thanksgiving means I am sure that you will agree that this BELONGS in the encyclopedia. If you do not have young children please avoid making sweeping and unjustifiable decisions about its insertion.

Annoyed Parent.

The description of Thanksgiving as the "unofficial" beginning of the Christmas shopping season seems very accurate to me, and highly relevant to the discussion of American Thanksgiving. As an American, I recall for 40 years this holiday being considered as the beginning of the Christmas holiday season. The Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade ends with Santa Claus in his sleigh. Then on "Black Friday" many people go shopping with family members and friends who have traveled to be with one another for Thanksgiving. There is no doubt that a commercial aspect has been attached to Thanksgiving.

The DAY itself, however, is usually a very family-oriented holiday. I would argue that it's the most family-oriented holiday of the year. Even more so than Christmas, when many families stay at home. (American living in Canada)

Repeatedly removed text

Someone cannot bear to have this text included and so keeps deleting it. Now where did that free speech end up?

"However, there are historians who contend that the first official Thanksgiving Day celebrated the massacre, in 1637, of some 700-900 Native American men, women and children during one of their religious ceremonies. The Native Americans were told to go out of the building they were in and were shot down as they came out. Those who remained were burned alive in the building or was beheaded. Those who were beheaded, heads were then kicked around. This led to what Europeans called Football and Americans refer to as Soccer. The following day, the governor declared a Thanksgiving Day, which continued to be celebrated for the next 100 years in honor of the bloody victory and to give God thanks. To these days, Native Americans gather in Plymouth to protest against the way that history has been misconstrued and commemorate the real events of that fateful day" - (Posted by Anon user)

The masacre you describe is discussed in thr appropriate article, see the Pequot War. As far as I know, no "Historians" make the assertion that it should be associated with Thanksgiving. The first proponent of this (James Loewen) is a sociologist, not a historian. See the discusion further down this talk page. The National Day of Mourning afticle might be used for this kind of claim, but I think Wiki is better off without giving it credibility. Lou I 21:07, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No single word that the pilgrims nearly died without the help of the indians who showed them how to plant corn, you just write that you invitd them to party with you, that's typical american ;)

Uhhh - the first official thanksgiving in English-speaking colonies - Virginia. Sorry, Pilgirms. Oh, and - if you just want to count European colonists, Spanish-speaking thanksgiving services date back a good bit further. --MichaelTinkler

"In the Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia is a document of 1619 which tells of the first twelve years of the Jamestown colony. The first settlement had a hundred persons, who had one small ladle of barley per meal. When more people arrived, there was even less food. Many of the people lived in cavelike holes dug into the ground, and in the winter of 1609-1610, they were:"


"" . . . driven through insufferable hunger to eat those things which nature most abhorred, the flesh and excrements of man as well of our own nation as of an Indian, digged by some out of his grave after he had laid buried there days and wholly devoured him; others, envying the better state of body of any whom hunger has not yet so much wasted as their own, lay wait and threatened to kill and eat them; one among them slew his wife as she slept in his bosom, cut her in pieces, salted her and fed upon her till he had clean devoured all parts saving her head . . .""


What the colonists in Virginia were doing with the Indians one year when they didn't give thanks.


(Source: Zinn, Howard. A People's History of the United States. Harper Collins: New York. 1995)


-trimalchio

Origins

From reading the entire article, it seems that the real origins of Thanksgiving as we know it in November is really due to Abraham Lincoln in 1863. Can we add this to the Origins section? How much of the connection to the pilgrims is really just a traditional belief (urban legened) and how much is true? Also, can we add the Francisco Vásquez de Coronado and other Texas stories to their own section in "Thanksgiving in the United States" instead of the origins section since I know of no real link between these stories and Thanksgiving?

Poisoned Indians

i've added a bit of information from http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=39844 You can email: Tristan_Ahtone-at-hotmail.com for a copy of sources used to compile this information, or else provide a countersource if you think any of the facts he claims are false so that this can be NPOVed. IMHO, the wikipedia page was rather POV without this info.

Boud 12:41, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I skimmed the article with the changes and they worried me from a POV, er, standpoint, but when I actually read the article I came away with the impression that the whole thing was good for the Europeans, bad for the Algonquins and Iroquois (and whomever else, I never learned history that far north), and can be reasonably observed as such, depending on which side one is on. --Charles A. L. 16:31, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)

The factoid about poisoned Indians in 1623 was first associated with the Pilgrams in James Loewen's book Lies My Teacher Told Me in 1995. It has propogated over a lot of web pages. Loewen cites a 'colonists letter' as his source, but doen't footnote it. The only actual earlier reference I've found was about a 1623 poisoning that was reported as being a part of the struggle with the Powhatan Indians in MD and VA, and had nothing to do with Pilgrams. Be aware that Loewen is a sociologist and peddler of politically corrtect history, by which I mean that being PC (correct by race, gender, and class diversity) is more important that historic accuracy. I'd like to get this point, and the link to independent media out of Wiki!! After a pause for comments I'll do that. Lou I 16:12, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Good job on checking into this. I was pretty suspicious of this "poisoning" claim too, but didn't know for sure. Also (by comparison), the claim that Indians were given smallpox-infected blankets during the Pontiac War is supported by fairly weak evidence, but is mentioned at least twice on Wikipedia. -- VV 21:48, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
To update: By Email, the creator of the refernce Web article has confirmed that he took it from Loewen and has no other source. I don't know if he believes me yet, but I'm working on him. To restate, I'll pull to reference here and on the Pequot article at the end of the week.. Lou I 13:08, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Lou, i'm a bit confused about which alleged facts you claim are wrong. Are you only talking about the poisoning in 1623 or are you also talking about the killing of about 500 Pequots in 1637? i've started looking around a bit for the (alleged) poisoning in 1623, but your second comment To update: makes it sound like you also have doubts about the killing of 500 Pequots in 1637.
At least the latter seems to be referred to fairly often, e.g. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/native_truth/message/8 though this does not claim direct access to primary source material.
However, regarding the former, you seem to dismiss primary source material, which you say is cited by James Loewen http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/liesmyteachertoldme/liesmyteacher.html , on the basis of your POV that he prioritises the method of selecting facts over facts themselves, and because you say he didn't footnote it.
Thanksgiving originated from Martians. I have a letter from a colonist to prove it, but I won't cite that letter. However, it's still a fact. If you disagree, you are disagreeing with a fact. Any matter of nonsense and propaganda can be idly hurled around and believed by any fools who refuse to adhere to accepted norms of source identification. Dogface 10:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(The method seems to be that by having more variety of sources - both men and women, both "whites" and "native Americans", etc - there is more chance of correction of factual errors, in fact it's something like the wikipedia method.) In any case, a quick look at James' Loewen's pages shows that he at least believes that he is trying to correct major factual errors and omissions regarding US history. Rather than dismissing his claim on the basis of distrust, it would surely be better to contact him directly asking him for more info on the colonists (sic) letter: (jloewen at zoo.uvm.edu). Maybe he could provide a jpg file of a scan of the letter or of a facsimile copy (yes, yes, facsimile copies existed before faxes ;). i put the sic in there because we don't if it's a letter by one or many colonists. Boud 21:35, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

IMHO Lou I has mostly whitewashed the article of any hint regarding alternative points of view on how the Thanksgiving tradition arose in the US (apart from one sentence regarding protests by native Americans), and LouI's detailed questions above seem to just have been a red herring (a distraction), Anyway, i'm not going to struggle on this - if USA people want to hold politically correct viewpoints of history and simply remove the dirty reality, that's your choice...

Loewen did finally reply to me, giving lack of time (240 emails to reply to) as a reason for not being able to participate in the wikipedia (he probably doesn't (yet) understand it's relevance). Here's the relevant part of his reply regarding the source for the colonist's letter regarding the 1623 massacre:

I cite J. Letich Wright, Jr., THE ONLY LAND THEY KNEW, p. 78. I don't own the book, am way behind writing my new book, and have 240 emails to answer, so I cannot check Wright to ensure I cited him right and HE has a good source. I hope he does.

So anyone interested in getting to source should look for this book. Or maybe try to find some libraries with source material. Boud 19:01, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The full citation referenced by Loewen is for the following book:
  • J. Leitch Wright Jr.; "The Only Land They Knew: The Tragic Story of the American Indians in the Old South"; 1985, New York, The Free Press, ISBN 0029346908.
Wright was a history professor at Florida State University. The reference is to a poisoning in the Powhatan War that happened on the banks of the Patomac River. Thats why I concluded it was Maryland or Virginia. Louwen liked the date so he linked it incorrectly to the Pilgrims. Lou I 20:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Summary of Actions

User:LouI contacted Tristan Ahtone (the author of the cited web page), and he cites no other source than Loewen's book, but he should be commended for a civil reply. User:Boud cotact Loewen by e-mail and has so far had no reply. The Pequot fortified vilage wiped out in 1637 wasn't connected with Thanksgiving until activists and protestors did so in the 1970's. But it DID happen. Refer to the Pequot War (in progress} and related articles such as Pequot. Pending any reply from Dr. Loewen, I'm removing the poisoning remark from this article.

I will also create an article on the National Day of Mourning, then reduce that section of this article to a sentence with a link in the U.S. section. Lou I 05:11, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I wrote the article on the National Day of Mourning. I've also finished an article on the Pequot War, which includes some discussion of these claims. I dont think we should refernce Loewen by name in an article, unless merited by anything he posts here or mentions in an answer to Boud's e-mail. Lou I 19:04, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Turkey Day?

Why do people refer to Thanksgiving as 'Turkey Day'? That is like calling Christmas 'gift day', 'santa day', etc. Holiday are (and should be) named by what they are celebrating, not how they are celebrated. Noldoaran 20:48, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)

Good question, one I don't have an answer for. It's just a joke thing. RickK 21:22, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It's referred to as "Turkey Day" in much of the US because of the association with eating turkey for dinner on that date. Tradition claims that the first Thanksgiving meal was a turkey and it continues from there. "T Day" is also used by some in the US, and in NYC because of the Macy's parade, some even call it "Macy's Day." Those last two were in the main article before, but I guess aren't common enough to stick. Maybe vegetarians call it "Tofu Day"? --zandperl 03:41, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Maybe they call it Tofurkey(my name for tufu made to look like turkey) day ;-) Noldoaran 22:00, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)
Right, because vegetarians don't eat tofu the other 364 days a year... --Belg4mit 02:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Or Turducken day. Turkey stuffed with duck stuffed with chicken. I've never had it, but I've heard it's good. :) RickK 06:54, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Mmm, duck. But I digress. I'm a lifelong native New Yorker, and I have never heard "Macy Day" except in the immediate context of the parade, and rarely then. Maybe I have a small circle, but it doesn't ring quite true. Everyone knows the next day, when you go shopping, is Macy Day. --Charles A. L. 16:25, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)
Perhaps "Macy's Day" was peculiar to my circle of friends while I grew up in NYC. However, I find that when I use the term, whether in NY or elsewhere in the North East, the fame of the parade is great enough that others know I mean Thanksgiving. --zandperl 04:50, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Maybe it derives from the "Macy's Day Parade", which is a corruption of "Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade". RickK 22:22, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
It's called Turkey Day because many Americans want to distance themselves from its Puritan Christian heritage. Most were taught in school that the Plymouth colony invented Thanksgiving in conjunction with some unnamed Indian tribe, and don't know about the other influences cited. Others say Turkey Day because they're proudly materialist, and others just say it because it creeped into their vocabulary. It may be an unadmirable name but it *is* very widely used. --sluggoster 11:34, 18 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Presidential pardons

Why no mention of the traditional "Presidential pardon" of one lucky turkey in the US each year?

Please feel free to edit the article to include this information. RickK 22:21, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

Category:Religious festivals

Is Thanksgiving really a religious holiday? Gamaliel 15:51, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Very much so. Probably the most religious of US holidays, even more so than Christmas. RickK 23:11, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

I have lived in 10 states and never seen thanksgiving treated as a religious holiday, I think this is bogus and POV. --Rakista 07:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it is as clearly true as RickK makes out. The origins and stated purpose of the holiday as outlined in the article do involve a religious expression of gratitude. However, the formal holiday itself was not originated by any organized church or religious movement, to my knowledge, but rather by the U.S. government at both a state and federal level. Contrast Thanksgiving with Christmas, Easter, Ramadan, or Hanukah, for example. The question becomes murkier when we consider that Thanksgiving, even more so than Christmas, has become less affiliated with religious expression over time, and arguably closer tied to family and community rather than strictly to religion. In all, my vote would be no, it is not a religious holiday, in that its origins are governmental and societal, rather than religious. I would cite the relative limitation of this holiday to North America as a point, since if it were truly a religious holiday, it would be far more likely to be celebrated in this form elsewhere globally where similar religious practices hold sway. Secondly, I would cite the mythology that has grown up around the holiday, especially in the U.S. - mythology not originating from organized religion or religious texts, but rather from societal, economic, and nationalistic sources. (Wow. I think I went a little overboard. But this represents my first post in Wikipedia anywhere, so forgive me.) Alavery7 16:17, 04 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So by your reasoning, El Dia de Los Muertos couldn't be a religious holidy because it's only celebrated in Mexico. RickK 00:20, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
No, the regional limitation was but one point in my reasoning. If the 'Day of the Dead' differs from Thanksgiving in one or more of the other points, I would say that carries weight. But I don't know much about that holiday, and that would probably be a discussion for that holiday's talk page, I would imagine. Alavery7 10:09, 05 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Interesting...I'm not sure where RickK is coming from on this one though. The only religious element I can ever remember from Thanksgiving (in my life I have celebrated it with four or five different host groups, depending on how you count) is a prayer before the meal. In all cases, the host group were active (i.e. regular church-going) Christians. I'm not sure what this is like in other regions, but I think I'm safe in saying that that holds for most of the American Southwest. Thanksgiving, in my experience, is primarily in the spirit of early America; public schools discuss Native Americans, pilgrims, and vegetables (the bountiful harvest idea), and a standard activity is for young children to trace their hands onto colored construction paper to make "turkey" pictures.

The comparison with Christmas strikes me as pretty strange. Christmas is thoroughly religious in connotations, with special (Christian) church services, events, songs based on Bible passages, and decorations (nativity scenes, candles with particular religious meanings, ornaments and mantelpieces bearing Christian sayings). On Advent Sundays (the three Sundays preceding Christmas), Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day, there are worship services in Protestant churches with fixed formats. Finally, Christian families tend to actively discuss religious themes, read to each other from the Bible, and focus on the "goodwill to all" and "peace on earth" phrases. None of this applies to Thanksgiving.

Easter is an even stranger thing to compare with Thanksgiving. Easter is also marked by special religious ceremonies, including the somber "maundy Thursday" (sp?) or "ash Wednesday" services, and jubilant celebrations on Easter Sunday ("CHRIST HAS RISEN! "HE IS RISEN INDEED!"). The easter egg, chocolate, and rabbit motifs aren't relevant to the religious aspect and are probably pagan in origin (like some aspects of the secular Christmas holiday). I apologize if my knowledge of Christianity seems a little naive, but I was brought up in mainstream Lutheranism and I feel most of what I'm saying goes for a lot of younger Americans brought up in Christian families...

I'll sum this up with a little table...

Element Christmas Easter Thanksgiving
Religious Songs Joy to the World, Angels We Have Heard on High, etc Christ the Lord is Risen Today, Lift High the Cross We plough the fields and scatter
Services Tennebrae(sp? candlelight only, gradually snuffed), Advent candles, "Midnight Mass" (Catholic) Ash Wednesday, Thursday, Easter Sunday (major) Thanksgiving Service
Foods Turkey, ham, candy, oranges, cakes/puddings Some large family meal, chocolates, "easter eggs" Insanely large family meal, turkey yams, pumpkin pies, cranberry jelly
Bible Story of Three Wise Men, Gospels, "Peace on earth, good will toward men", etc "On the third day He rose again", Gospels, etc None I can think of, but theoretically anything referring to "the Lord's bounty"

I mention foods in the table since the significance of Easter and Christmas food items is grounded in syncretic (pagan?) ideas (of Spring and Yule, respectively) whereas the focus at Thanksgiving is really only on food, and possibly somewhat on the early American colonists. While many people reiterate the idea of "giving thanks" for all that we have while at the Thanksgiving table, and Christians mostly attribute this to the Lord's gifts, it's not necessarily religious in nature.

In sum, Christmas and Easter are official and major Christian holidays and have extensive Biblical support in this, whereas Thanksgiving has little explicit support and is not really in the Christian calendar. Additionally, many less-active Christians go to church only on Easter Sunday and/or Christmas. I've never heard of anyone going to Church specifically for Thanksgiving, whether it's on a Sunday or not.

If this doesn't convince you, let's run an informal poll.

Jeeves 05:04, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)


I dont think you should have included easter since easter origins are extremely disgusting they did not start with what you think. You see the easter bunny (rabbit) is a symbol of a fertility goddess as is the easter egg. Which has nothing to do with gods son Jesus. All the holidays is is an excuse to make pagan celebrations, habbits, beliefs what have you look good so that those that observed them no longer seemed to be pagan well news flash pagan is pagan. As far as thanksgiving apparently a lot of generations of people have been lied to thats sad.

What a distortion. "the formal holiday itself was not originated by any organized church or religious movement" This statement seems true, but the first Thanksgiving was a feast organized by the Pilgrims who came from England on the Mayflower and who landed at Plymouth Rock in Massachusetts. These hard-line fundamentalist Christians fled England because of religious persecution and they sought to establish their own theocracy. To these Christians, freedom of religion meant freedom to practice their religion, and the first Thanksgiving they held was as serious a religious event as anything else they did. Unlike Christmas and Easter, Thanksgiving celebrated food security, and it was celebrated as the answer to their prayers. To this day, thanks to the Christian God as described in the Old Testament and New Testament of the Christian Holy Bible is a central part of Thanksgiving, often signified with the saying of grace before the meal begins. Typically, the head of the hosting household will say grace or ask someone else at the table to say grace. Other faiths may give thanks to a different God than the God worshipped by the Pilgrims and the majority of Americans, and some people may not even recognize the religious roots of the holiday. No sense adding the truth to the main article. 69.255.0.91 20:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

But than there's also the chance that Thanksgiving, while possibly and probably celebrating one of the first bountiful harvests, was never intended to be religious at all. Of course, there is still the point that, because the Pilgrims were very religious, they would give thanks to God as some sort of prayer or blessing before the meal. --66.41.20.22 06:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Christmas reference

The article says that Christmas is more family oriented in Canada than the US. First of all, should this information be here in this context, and second of all, is it even true? Christmas seems to be pretty heavy on family togetherness in the States, if you ask me. --Cvaneg 23:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Ancient forerunners, etc., of Thanksgiving celebration

Someone might want to do a little bit of research and then add a note, about the ancient Greek nine-day harvest festival of Demeter; the Roman "cereal" harvest festival of Ceres; Anglo-Saxon Lammas and Harvest Home celebrations; the Hebrew sukkoth; Scottish kirn; etc.

It might also be worthwhile to mention (briefly) thanks-giving celebrations around the world. For example, in certain African countries, wonderful traditional harvest festivals (for example, the yam festival) are celebrated essentially for the purpose of giving thanks and thus correspond to our Thanksgiving Day (even if they are not linked by a direct historical tradition).

I believe the Protestant Episcopal Church in America includes Thanksgiving on its liturgical calendar (the same religious calendar that observes Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter, etc.).

It might also be a good idea to link to an article (I'm not sure whether such an article yet exists) on the increasing commercialization of culture that has marked recent decades and is so vividly illustrated by Thanksgiving (among other holidays). Because we find ourselves in the middle of intense global commercial bombardment, we probably don't have the best perspective to make neutral observations on the supplanting of traditional culture with corporate commercialism, nevertheless, this is an extremely important phenomenon worthy of study, analysis, and reflection. Interestingly, resistance to global corporate commercialism comes from divergent (and even apparently diametically "opposite") sectors and is variously expressed as anti-American sentiment (for example, by Islamic fundamentalists); or as a defense of "Christian values" against "liberal media"; or as a human rights movement against capitalist exploitation; or as pro-democracy community-based economics versus the dominant commercialized messages of the "corporate capitalist media."

_________

Anyone feel like incorporating this?:

The true story of Thanksgiving

The true story of Thanksgiving

By Richard B. Williams Nov. 1, 2000

One day in 1605, a young Patuxet Indian boy named Tisquantum and his dog were out hunting Owhen they spotted a large English merchant ship off the coast of Plymouth, Mass. Tisquantum, who later became known as Squanto, had no idea that life as he knew it was about to change forever.

His role in helping the Pilgrims to survive the harsh New England winter and celebrate the "first" Thanksgiving has been much storied as a legend of happy endings, with the English and the Indians coming together at the same table in racial harmony. Few people, however, know the story of Squanto's sad life and the demise of his tribe as a result of its generosity. Each year, as the nation sits down to a meal that is celebrated by all cultures and races - the day we know as Thanksgiving - the story of Squanto and the fate of the Patuxet tribe is a footnote in history that deserves re-examination.

The day that Capt. George Weymouth anchored off the coast of Massachusetts, he and his sailors captured Squanto and four other tribesmen and took them back to England as slaves because Weymouth thought his financial backers "might like to see" some Indians. Squanto was taken to live with Sir Ferdinando Gorges, owner of the Plymouth Company. Gorges quickly saw Squanto's value to his company's exploits in the new world and taught his young charge to speak English so that his captains could negotiate trade deals with the Indians.

In 1614, Squanto was brought back to America to act as a guide and interpreter to assist in the mapping of the New England coast, but was kidnapped along with 27 other Indians and taken to Malaga, Spain, to be sold as slaves for about $25 a piece. When local priests learned of the fate of the Indians, they took them from the slave traders, Christianized them and eventually sent them back to America in 1618.

But his return home was short-lived. Squanto was recognized by one of Gorges' captains, was captured a third time and sent back to England as Gorges' slave. He was later sent back to New England with Thomas Dermer to finish mapping the coast, after which he was promised his freedom. In 1619, however, upon returning to his homeland, Squanto learned that his entire tribe had been wiped out by smallpox contracted from the Europeans two years before. He was the last surviving member of his tribe.

In November 1620, the Pilgrims made their now-famous voyage to the coast of Plymouth, which had previously been the center of Patuxet culture. The next year, on March 22, 1621, Squanto was sent to negotiate a peace treaty between the Wampanoag Confederation of tribes and the Pilgrims. We also know that Squanto's skills as a fisherman and farmer were crucial to the survival of the Pilgrims that first year - contributions which changed history.

But in November 1622, Squanto himself would also succumb to smallpox during a trading expedition to the Massachusetts Indians. The Patuxet, like so many other tribes, had become extinct. The lesson of Squanto and the Pilgrims is not one of bitter remembrance, but rather a celebration of the generosity of Indian people. Under the guidance of Squanto, the Pilgrims followed a longstanding Indian tradition of offering thanks. Although we celebrate Thanksgiving as an "American" holiday, its beginnings are Native to the core.

Feasts of gratitude and giving thanks have been a part of Indian culture for thousands of years. In Lakota culture, it's called a Wopila; in Navajo, it's Hozhoni; in Cherokee, it's Selu i-tse-i; and in Ho Chunk it's Wicawas warocu sto waroc. Each tribe, each Indian nation, has its own form of Thanksgiving. But for Indian culture, Thanksgiving doesn't end when the dishes are put away. It is something we celebrate all year long - at the birth of a baby, a safe journey, a new home.

So when you sit down to Thanksgiving dinner this year, remember Squanto and the great sacrifices made by him and his tribe to a people they didn't know. That is the legacy of the Indian people of New England - one that we can all enjoy.

Richard B. Williams (Lakota) is the executive director of the American Indian College Fund, a historian, educator and the founder of the Upward Bound Program at the University of Colorado at Boulder Pedant 00:31, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC)

Some of the material you report IS included in the article for Squanto, which coiuld still stand improvement. Perhaps the "traditional" story of the Pilgrim Thanksgiving deserves a more straitforward deescription here, with a link to Squanto. I'll put it on my to do list, and check back in a few months, in the interim feel free to jump in. :-) Lou I 21:38, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

_____________

Canada's Thanksgiving

As a Canadian, I took offense to some of the generalizations and assumptions regarding how we observe Thanksgiving. A few were blatantly wrong. I wanted to link to the correct sources of information, available at the Government of Canada Website here - http://www.patrimoinecanadien.gc.ca/PROGS/CPSC-CCSP/jfa-ha/graces_e.cfm and here - http://canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/jfa-ha/action_e.cfm but was unable to determine how to link to anything other than another Wiki page.

I have corrected the errors, removed erroneous generalizations, and saved my editing. I hope it stays because the way it was reading was wrong. CarrieD 03:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Why on Thursday? I find a lot of discussion about which Thursday etc. - But why that particular day of the week?

What is the date this holiday occurs?

I cant find the date of this holiday in the article. Shouldnt it be included?

The date changes from year to year since it is set to the "fourth Thursday of November" rather than a specific date. Kyaa the Catlord 11:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Murder Day..

Who added that? :p —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pacific Coast Highway (talk • contribs) .

I believe that was vandalism. 11:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I am british and i dont know what thanksgiving is can you make the article clearer?

I moved the "definition" paragraph from the last section of the celebration section to the first section of the same, does this help? Kyaa the Catlord 11:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

cleaning up

This article could use some major work... I wonder if there's a better-structured one in some other language. +sj + 04:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The First Thanksgiving Proclamation

Here's a link that claims to cite the first thanksgiving proclamation:

Credible? Well, it looks like it's from a law school's chronology of US historical documents.

THANKSGIVING

I don't think that it is also know as "Penis Day". There is some vandalism on the main Thanksgiving page in the box to the right. Could someone change it?





My national holiday is thanksgiving and it first started 1821 in

Homophobia accusation

This line appears: As the holiday most associated with family gatherings in the U.S., Thanksgiving is often humorously portrayed in movies and television as an occasion for extended family members to bicker with one another.

I added, "and to come out as gay to one's family", and was accused of vandalism. Homophobe much? It is, in fact, portrayed in moviea and television as the premier day to come out to one's family. Well, that or Christmas, but I didn't feel it appropriate to include in the discussion of a religious holiday.

Is Wiki being a little gun-shy? MusicMaker5376 07:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia must cite verifiable sources. If you can find a source, add it back. If it's just something you noticed, that's original research and it's not for Wikipedia. — Scm83x talk 07:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Where are the sources for "humorously portrayed in movies and television as an occasion for extended family members to bicker with one another"? MusicMaker5376 07:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Add the references, or ask for them. Just because someone else has unreferenced or unverifiable sources doesn't mean you can, too.  :) -JC 07:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Canadian Thanksgiving

In the article it is currently suggested that thankgsgiving in Canada was somehow derived from the Pilgrim mythology, but that seems to be an anachronism. A lot of that stuff wasn't invented until decades after the Revolution. --iMb~Meow 22:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

If Thanksgiving has its origins in Canada, as the article states, I think this should be mentioned earlier, and the entry for Thanksgiving in Canada put before the entry for the US. It may be a bigger deal in the US than here in Canada, but that's a bias that shouldn't shape the article. 66.46.152.30 16:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the Canadian entry needs some (a lot) of fixing. For example "Unlike the American tradition of remembering Pilgrims and settling in the New World, Canadians give thanks for a successful harvest and the bountiful seals they could cuddle with in the winter." 71.32.188.84 04:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

i thought the first thanksgiving was...

i thought the first thanksgiving was after santiago defeated the last muslim stronghold in europe at grenada on november 25, 1491. king ferdinand gave thanks to god for victory and then pope innocent viii (i think) declared that it will forever be a day of thanksgiving for european christians. the same pope later, in league with queen isabella, sent cardinal ximenos to spain to murder any moors who resisted christianity.

i was under the impression that the first thanksgiving in america was the settlers just continuing the tradition of the celebration of ending the 700-year moor occupation.

if this is incorrect or whatever, that's cool, since i don't care enough to look for cites and add it, but i'm pretty positive it's correct and that thanksgiving historically is the celebration of a nice mini-genocide in europe.

There were already thanksgiving-like holidays in the Americas before the Europeans noticed the place. --iMb~Meow 05:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
i don't see that mentioned anywhere in the article.
I did get a brief mention in about the Wampanoag tradition, but the article overall is a mess. There are lots of examples over here if you're interested in this kind of thing; it seems that just about every culture has seen fit to stop and say thanks to whomever or whatever allowed it to survive another year. --iMb~Meow 08:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
ah. this one struck me as significant 'cause it was on november 25th and was in western society. i'm going to try and see if it was actually kept as part of a tradition or not, though. you are right, though. this article is a mess.

Well, Jack Chick thinks he has the "true" story of the first Thanksgiving, but he has racial stereotypes towards Indians and a whole lot of prejudice to our nations, which breaks the rule of Jesus' words, "Stop judging and you will not be judged." Here is the "true story" of Thanksgiving (just scroll down the pages for the "real" story). --Angeldeb82 18:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Date template

We could use date{{CURRENTYEAR}} and {{Fourth thursday in november}} to maintain the Gregorian date. This will save a lot of trouble on the first day of each year, and not only for this holiday. --Uncle Ed 18:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

in australia

thanksgiving is not widely celebrated in australia.

Hmm. It does appear to be a very recent addition (2004), and surprisingly overtly religious for a recently adopted public holiday. Was there much controversy in getting this thing passed, or was it just a lot of "yeah, okay fine, whatever"? --iMb~Meow 19:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

- First I've ever heard about it being celebrated here in Australia. It's not a public holiday, nor is the 'Day of Thanksgiving' at all related to the North American idea of thanksgiving. I'd say references to Australia in here should be removed.

I think we do have to mention this, especially if you are saying it hasn't really been made into a holiday. The prime minister, governor-general, treasurer, and opposition leader have all endorsed this thing in their official capacities. If government officials are running around declaring holidays without the authority to do so, that's pretty remarkable in itself and should be noted. Is there a way to verify that this thing never went up for a vote? --iMeowbot~Meow 10:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

- If its not official then the fact that some people are making religious mileage out of it doesn't really confirm that its practise is wide spread. Like, I suspect most Australians, the only time I've heard of it being practised here, is by expatriate Americans and their friends. From http://www.thanksgiving.org.au

"The decision to proceed with a National Day of Thanksgiving was confirmed at a meeting of National ministry leaders at Parliament House Canberra on the 17th June 2003."

Note it says National Ministry i.e. religious groups, not Federal Ministers (i.e. parliamentary).

This seems to confirm that its a Religious occurance, not a Governmental one. The article should make that clear or remove this seemingly overstated section. -- (R.Tillsley 5-jul-2006 1610 EST.

Yanksday

I've never heard anyone refer to the holiday as "Yanksday", and some searching revealed only links back to this article, so I removed the reference to "Yanksday". --Rkstafford 14:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

"Yanksgiving" has 1200 or so links on Google, but likewise, probably not a useful addition to the article.

Origin of Canadian Thanksgiving

Under the Origins of Thanksgiving, the second paragraph says that "...the modern Canadian Thanksgiving was brought to Canada by United Empire Loyalists after the American War for Independence," while the fourth ends with "The first North American celebration of these traditional festivals by Europeans was held in Newfoundland by Martin Frobisher and the Frobisher Expedition to find the Northwest Passage in 1578, and Canadians trace their Thanksgiving to that festival." And the third paragraph contradicts the fourth with this "The first known thanksgiving feast or festival in North America was celebrated by Francisco Vásquez de Coronado and the people he called "Tejas" (members of the Hasinai group of Caddo-speaking Native Americans) on 23 May 1541..."

Those are three very different sets of dates. Which is accurate?
(DPU 22:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC))

I think the paragraph is somewhat confusing regarding the first instance of a "Thanksgiving calibration" (Europeans in Canada in 1578) with the introduction and influence of the new American customs of American thanksgiving ("the feast") which were introduced back into Canadian culture after the American War.
Also it would seem that the "new version of history" would claim America has in fact beat Canada to the thanksgiving punch because they had a "feast" of some description on the 23 May 1541 -- which doesn't seem to actually be called "thanksgiving." I suppose any recorded "feast" with Native Americans could be regarded as "Thanksgiving" from this point onward since that is what defines the American Thanksgiving (unlike the canadian one which celebrates harvist) Since I would assume it was an issue of pride, history will no doubt be modified to reflect American view. An example of this I can think of is Alexander Graham Bell. I hereby concede defeat, I vote delete the Canadian thanksgiving paragraph. History will no doubt remember the 3rd paragraph. Thanks. --Trode 21:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanksgiving for a great Soccer Team, BCA EAGLES RULE!

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