Talk:Texas Rangers (baseball)/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Article Cleanup?

I noticed that the cleanup tag has been placed on this article. What exactly needs to be cleaned up? Maybe the Franchise History section should be a little better organized, and we probably don't need to have the entire roster under "Current Stars", but is that what the person who placed the tag there intended? -- 68.12.101.60 22:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the cleanup tag was added, but I'd like to get opinions on removing some of the text from the 2006 season section. Do we need a list of arbitrarily-decided big losses and big wins? Every team has these during a season. I've left this in for now -- clumped together in an attempt to reduce the discombobulated flow of this section -- since this information was added again after I'd previously removed the text regarding losses to the Yankees and Royals. Siward 17:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Name change

I have moved the old contents of the page Texas Rangers to Texas Rangers (disambiguation), freeing up Texas Ranger for this article (about the baseball team)]. We will need an admin to move the page, and there is a backlog at the moment, so I'll wait a bit (or hope someone else take cares of it). Cheers, --Commander Keane 07:17, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

I think we should keep this in perspective: Someone in Liverpool or Baghdad or Melbourne or Bombay who wants to brush up on the US wild west is more apt to want the law enforcement agency. The only ones who would really want the baseball team first are probably Americans. My own opinion would be, from a www perspective, this page should be second fiddle. However, the formal name of the law enforment agency is "Texas Ranger Division", therefore, if this page is moved to Texas Rangers, I would like to see a disclaimer at the top of the page in italics offering the link to the law enforcement division. --CrazyTalk 19:28, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

I concur that the baseball team is second fiddle. I like the disambiguation page, although it might be bit verbose. But until such time (if any) that the baseball version of the Texas Rangers (who were named after the law enforcement division, let's not forget) happen to win the World Series (or even come close to getting there), it would be kind of pretentious to have them as the "top dog" in this category. Wahkeenah 19:33, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I admit that I don't like it, mostly for selfish reasons because I work on a lot of the Texas Rangers articles and this adds an extra pain in the neck, but Texas Rangers should remain the disambiguation page. This is similar to the situation that arose at Saint Louis Blues and Georgia. RADICALBENDER★ 19:37, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, very similar to St. Louis Blues. Again, a team that was named after something, and then somehow its fans think the team should be the primary reference. Maybe they forgot that there's a good reason their logo looks like a musical note. Georgia is on my mind. And then there's the creature called Turkey.  :) Wahkeenah 19:50, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Someone reverted my MoS compliant disambiguation page, could you restore it to the new location please. --Commander Keane 06:03, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
This discussion has be pasted into Talk:Texas Rangers, and should ocntinure there. --Commander Keane 11:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

#26 retired??

Hello, Can someone definitively confirm that Johnny Oates' #26 was retired by the Rangers? Their website does not list it as retired and the only news about it states that it will be retired, but not that it has been retired. No other website, other than wiki or wiki copycats, list the number as retired. If it has been officially retired, please provide a source.--CrazyTalk 20:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if I can find a definitive source in print, but I watched the Rangers on TV all year, saw footage of the retirement ceremony, and saw the banner for the retired number in the stadium. Johnny Oates' number 26 is definitely retired. -- 68.12.106.243 05:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, now I have found a source. It's on the Baseball Hall of Fame's list of retired numbers. Here's a link: [1] -- 68.12.106.243 05:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Remove Quick Facts Section?

I would like to remove the Quick Facts section, as it appears to duplicate the information presented in the Infobox. As far as I can tell, the only information in that section not located elsewhere in the article is the mention of the Rangers' postseason futility. Thoughts? User:Lbbzman 19:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Texas Agreement" removed

Section was completely unsourced; principal actors in it deny such a plot ever existed; Google search on ("texas agreement" rangers astros) [2] yields one result - this page. Accusations of malfeasance need to be thoroughly sourced. | Klaw ¡digame! 14:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone deleted the above post and restored the "Texas Agreement" section to the main article. I have never once in my life ever heard of such an agreement, and as stated above, both partys deny it ever happened and there is no source on it. I will remove the section, and I intend for it to stay gone until someone can provide a real source on it. -- NClark128 06:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I have rewritten the section to conform to NPOV. I find the story hard to believe myself. Why would any GM limit his options so drastically? In fact, the section says that the agreement supposedly ended in 1994 but Pete Incaviglia somehow invoked it in 1998. Huh? Anyway, the section is now presented as disputed allegation, not agreed-on fact. Casey Abell 15:57, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I have restored the necessary qualifications about the supposed "Texas Agreement" after some were deleted by an anonymous user. I will continue to make sure the section conforms to NPOV by including those qualifications about the alleged agreement. Casey Abell 05:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
An editor tried to add this section to the Houston Astros article. Other editors pointed out factual errors (for instance, Bob Watson was the Houston GM during Mitch Williams' time with the club in 1994, not Bill Wood) and deleted the section. The whole thing is starting to look like a silly hoax. Should the section simply be deleted? Casey Abell 02:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I just took the section out. The only source given is a book that's conveniently out of print. Since living people are being accused of doing something wrong, the sources have to be strong for it to be included in the article. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
No problem. The allegations seem pretty silly and often self-contradictory to me, even if there is a "source" for them. And even if that source exists, I frankly don't put much faith in most sportswriters. Casey Abell 00:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the section has also been deleted from the Houston Astros article. The allegations couldn't even correctly identify the Astros GM during Mitch Williams' time with the team. Casey Abell 00:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
EdRooney restored the section after he says he "spoke with" Phil Rogers. (Yeah, sure.) Oh well, at least he changed Bill Wood to Bob Watson to eliminate the most obvious goof. EdRooney also left a charming note on my user page: "Perhaps we should nominate you for an "Uber-Wiki Nerd" award? Oh, and Bob Watson says to go &%*^ off." The guy's obviously spoofing, so I'm not going to give him what he wants, which is an edit war. The "Texas Agreement" section is so obviously self-contradictory—and I've added so many disclaimers and doubts—that we can probably let it stay until EdRooney gets tired of the silliness. By the way, he also stuck the section back in the Houston Astros article. Casey Abell 08:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, fine, let's settle this. I have just ordered The Impossible Takes a Little Longer from Amazon (only $7.40 including shipping; not bad) and will peruse it to see just how much information it gives, and what sources it cites for this alleged agreement. Would it be possible for us to agree that whatever is present and verifiable in the book should be included in the article, and whatever's not should be removed? As others have mentioned, searching for "Texas Agreement" and "Texas Rangers" reveals exactly one source: this article and all its mirrors. Nowhere else on the Internet is it mentioned, so let's try the dead trees. Wyv 11:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Fine with me, although the book was published in May, 1990, so it's hard to see how it could apply to much of the section, which deals with alleged events in the 1990s and 2000s. Thanks for undertaking the research. Casey Abell 13:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
You are absolutely right that it can't deal with events in the late 90s and this century, but if that's the only reference material we have, that's all that should stay in the article. :) Plus, maybe the book will give some other terms to search for. Wyv 14:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Following-up on my own comment, I'll be darned if I can find anything at all on this "Texas Agreement" in the book by Phil Rogers. If someone would care to point me to a page number, I'd be most appreciative. Wyv 08:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
That's good work, Wyv. This is absolutely a hoax, and it violates WP:LIVING to have it in there with weak sourcing. It should be removed on sight. | Mr. Darcy talk 16:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

You need to get the first media released edition of "The Impossible Takes A Little Longer." Subsequent editions that were sold in most book stores removed the paragraphs that dealt with the "agreement." Also, I've found a couple of old Rangers' pre-game shows with Norm Hitzges on HSE circa 1990 and 1991 that dealt with this issue.PeteO'Brien

The story about the first edition of the book sounds unconvincing, to put it mildly. The pre-game show story seems equally vague. For controversial material involving living persons, absolutely solid, verifiable sourcing from reliable third-party sources must be provided. I'll quote the WP:BLP policy:
Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research). Where the material is derogatory and unsourced or poorly sourced, the three-revert rule does not apply.
No sources even remotely satisfying Wikipedia's verifiability standards have been provided for these contentious (and frankly far-fetched) allegations. I will continue to remove these allegations until such sources are provided. Casey Abell 03:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The book I have has no edition number on it, which by convention usually means it is a first edition printing, and it came from a used bookstore, so I believe it is the first edition and still has nothing referencing this. Also, Norm Hitzges was a talking head even back in the HSE (Home Sports Entertainment, precursor to Fox Sports Net) days. Anything he, or any other commentator, says on an opinion show is just that, their opinion. Wyv 07:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Rangers Hall of Fame

Why is there a separate article on the Rangers hall of fame? Shouldn't we just include it in this one? Are two articles necessary? Texas Rangers Hall of Fame--Kevin 04:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems like it is okay to have separate articles. Texas Rangers (baseball) is already big as it is. Kingturtle 03:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree to the fact that this article is pretty large as it is, but does the hall of fame really merit a completely separate article? I think that anyone specifically looking for a Texas Rangers Hall of Fame would be looking for the law enforcement one, and that a baseball fan would expect it on the team page. Just my opinion. I was going to go ahead and merge them, but since there seems to be a dissenting voice, I'm going to go ahead and wait for consenus.--Kevin 05:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I think they should be merged. Two separate articles, especially considering how short the Hall of Fame article is, seems friviolous. EHoffman 20:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In the Minnesota Twins article, the Minnesota Twins Hall of Fame was merged with the Twins statistical records and milestone achievements article. That's a possible solution for this problem. Smarterthanu91 05:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The (baseball) Rangers HoF may warrant its own article if we expand on the enshrinement process and where people can visit the hall. I'm going to the Ballpark this week, so I'll see if I can get some more info. Caknuck 05:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Too much about 2006

Am I the only one who thinks that there is way too much listed about the 2006 season. Suppose all this useless information (The Rangers became the first team to make a significant deal near the trade deadline, acquiring outfielders Carlos Lee and Nelson Cruz from the Milwaukee Brewers in exchange for Kevin Mench, Francisco Cordero, Laynce Nix and pitching prospect Julian Cordero (no relation to Francisco) on July 28.

The Yankees swept the Rangers in a three-game series at Ameriquest Field for the second time on July 24-26. Adam Eaton, who had injured his right middle finger during spring training and had been placed on the 60-day DL, made his first start of the season on July 25 in the second game of the series. He pitched three scoreless innings before a questionable call on two-strike pitch against Alex Rodriguez led to a Rodríguez walk, rather than making him the third out. Instead Eaton had a meltdown, walking Jorge Posada, hitting Aaron Guiel, walking Andy Phillips (which scored Rodríguez), and giving up an infield single to Miguel Cairo before being relieved by Ron Mahay. The Rangers eventually lost the game 7-4. The final game of the series saw Cordero and Otsuka both give up late leads in an 8-7 loss that was decided on a two-run homer by Jason Giambi in the ninth.

The Yankees' sweep was part of the Rangers' season-worst six-game losing streak. Texas finally snapped the skid on July 30 with a 15-2 win over Kansas City. Although the Rangers have maintained a roughly .500 record since the All-Star break, they have been unable to keep pace with the surging Oakland Athletics. As of September 8, the Rangers are 72-70 in third place in the AL West, ten games behind Oakland. The Rangers are not in contention in the American League wild card race. ) was left in the article. Will we be posting like this for 2007, 2008 and so on? If no one is bothered I'd just assume remove this now--137.242.1.50 09:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclusionist, so I wouldn't mind much more detailed material on every season. I sure don't think the 2006 info is "useless", because it gives a reader some sense of how the season has developed. But you're probably right that, to keep the article to manageable length, we'll have to boil this down eventually. I think we should probably wait until the end of the season to condense the 2006 section, though, just to make sure we get the final evaluations correct. Casey Abell 15:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I also like including detailed information, but I also think that the information listed in the grandparent is too detail-oriented. An overview of the season is one thing (and is undoubtedly beneficial), but it's my opinion that listing largely unremarkable events in particular games just bogs down the article on the whole. The Yankees series paragraph is a good example of this -- it (in my opinion) comes across as just a stated fact which bears little meaning on the overall outcome of the season or the demeanor of the team as a whole. Every team experiences these sorts of events during the course of a baseball season.
Why did this series loss matter so much? Was the season notably different from that point on, and do the facts point to this game/series as a turning point (one way or the other)? What makes these events relevant to a casual Rangers fan perusing this article? How does this event (in the case of a trade, injury, or suspension, perhaps) affect the team's season and beyond? I feel like these should be the questions we ask ourselves before tacking current event information onto the end of this article. I admit that it may be difficult to answer these questions appropriately without editorializing. In the Yankees sweep paragraph, it is notable that the games vs. the Yankees started a six-game losing stream, but I feel that the text given to Adam Eaton's performance contributes little unless we are trying to draw conclusions about his (or perhaps the team's) mental toughness. Siward 21:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The Yankee series is no longer even mentioned in the article, so I don't understand your objections. Casey Abell 18:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I was using the text about the Yankees series that was formerly in this article and copied to this discussion by the grandparent as an example (hence why I said "a good example of this") of the problem I have with the way that the season updates are (typically) written. Siward 15:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've always wondered why we have "the hicks era" and "arod experiment" as being differnt. isn't tom hicks still the owner to this day?