Talk:Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)

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It has been proposed below that Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk) be renamed and moved to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk.

The proposed move should have been noted at Wikipedia:Requested moves.
Discussion to support or oppose the move should be on this talk page, usually under the heading "Requested move". If, after a few days, a clear consensus for the page move is reached, please move the article and remove this notice, or request further assistance.

Maintenance use only: Add to WP:RM {{subst:RMlink|Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)|Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk|REASON|section={{{section}}}}}

Contents

[edit] Danzig or Gdańsk?

This is indeed an interesting case; since it it the very takeover of Danzig/Gdańsk that led to the city's Germanization and this event marks the change of Gdansk to Danzig in our wiki nomenclature. Therefore should this article be named 'Teutonic takeover of Danzig' or Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk'? I think that since the city name before the takeover was Gdańsk, it would be logical to use the G version. We may also avoid this trouble by using a neutral name like Polish-Teutonic War (1308–1309).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Polish-Teutonic War (1308–1309) is a neutral only in the sense that the Royal Polish forces were not involved at all in the takeover. The Poles did not fight the Order, they were supposed to drive the Brandenburgers away from the town, which was not accomplished. That failure could be covered in Polish-Brandenburgian War (1308) if needed. As for the town naming, the vote, which I had looked up to make sure to pick the consensus name, requires to use "Gdańsk before 1308" and "Danzig between 1308 and 1945". If we ignore the vote in this case in order to determine the name used around 1308, then Historical documents suggest "Danzc (1263), Danczk (1311, 1399, 1410, 1414-1438)". As for "the takeover led to the city's Germanization", well, I started the article to initiate a better coverage of this important event and its time frame than the general article on the city and its history currently can provide. Capital of the Pomeranian Duchy (1138–1294/1308) is a starter, though, maybe parts can be merged in here for a better background. -- Matthead discuß!     O       23:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe this article needs to go through WP:RM.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, the only thing that needs to get fixed is the pre-1308 part of the "vote" above, where Polish POV only prevailed because this early era was not yet covered properly with sources back in 2005. Are there any sources for the claimed use of Polish names at all? I have seen none. How about Dgańska, whatever that is? I've seen Polish sources reporting about existing evidence for German name versions, e.g. "Dantzike" in the pre-1308 era. Besides, your edit [1] is a really good laugh, as you are calling the GDR edition of a work of this author mentioned here a "German source". Freudian slip maybe, as the person had worked in Krakau, Posen and Thorn? How about this or that: Dansko 1180, Dansk, Gdanensis 1209, Dancek, Gdanensis 1224, Danceke 1263, Dantsik, etc. There was exactly one takeover of the city that led to an "X-ization", and that was in 1945. As in 1308, 1410, 1456, 1918, Poles needed others to do the fighting. And again, Kashubians and Germans were slaughtered, not absent Poles.-- Matthead  DisOuß   14:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I find the name proposed by Space Caded (Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)) a reasonable compromise. For the event which marks the name shift to use both is quite reasonable.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

You guys and making compromises? When and where? Especially Space Cadet is constantly edit warring, even adding Polish names to places in Kaliningrad Oblast, like Tilsit. The vote is clear on that: It's Danzig in 1308. Show me articles on the town that have double naming, then I may consider discussing a name change. And now, move back to original naming.-- Matthead  DisOuß   12:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Tylża was a part of the Polish fief Ducal Prussia therefore is sharing a Polish/German history, therefore a Polish name according to the Gdańsk vote. You German ultranationalists only like the Gdańsk vote when it serves your purposes, but you forget that it works both ways. What doyou mean show you an article? Every article that talks about the history of the western and northern Polish territories has double naming. Prussian Confederation, Royal Prussia, Ducal Prussia, Bogusław Radziwiłł e tutti quanti. You're new here or something? Don't play dumb on us (the Wikipedia Community) now! Space Cadet (talk) 16:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Another double naming article would of course be the most recent version of History of Gdańsk (Danzig). Space Cadet (talk) 18:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Moved back to original and proper name. You may try WP:RM, stop warring here.-- Matthead  Discuß   18:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that per our naming conventions, double naming in titles is not good. Per discussion above, Gdańsk is more correct than Danzig, since if per Gdansk vote we agree that this year and this particular event marks the name change, it is obvious that the Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk (and changed its name to Danzig), and did not take over Danzig (as the name was not used until after they took it over). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Zwantepolc de Danceke, 1228
Zwantepolc de Danceke, 1228
Come on Piotrus, what is pretty unoriginal non-research. You know very well that German name variants are recorded well before 1308, the Order did not introduce a new name to the town which was inhabited by many German merchants and had received Lübeck rights in the 1220s. The Polish version had gained the upper hand in the vote for the pre-1308 time, even though sources are scarce. The event happened in 1308, the policy is "Danzig between 1308 and 1945", thus "Gdańsk before 1308" does not belong in the article name at all. Once again I ask you to be cooperative and move the article back to its original and proper name Teutonic takeover of Danzig from which it was moved away by Space Cadet three times. -- Matthead  Discuß   18:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Please read section on Original Research, the city was not Germanised before 1308, your personal beliefs can't be used as sources. It's absurd to talk about "German merchants"-there was no German identity, no German nation, and no Germany back then. As to city laws that is view that Norman Davies simply points out as ignorant-many cities and towns adopted without any German living within their walls. It was an administrative change unconnected to ethnic situation.--Molobo (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Both names are most probably wrong in spelling (whatever "wrong" means, in the middle ages they spelt as they felt). Not that it matters much, but your statement that there was no Germany back then is not correct. Just google for "Regnum Teutonicum" or "East Francia". Polish or German identity kind of existed already. Have fun. Der Eberswalder (talk) 17:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding my move from Teutonic Takeover of Gdańsk to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk, it was merely because the event does not seem to be known formally as the "Teutonic Takeover". Rather, the article is simply describing the takeover of the city by the Teutonic Knights. Whether Gdańsk or Danzig should be used is contentious; my move was simply to make "takeover" be lower-case. The Gdanzig vote indicates that "Danzig" should be used; my opinion is that the event should be described using whichever name reliable sources usually use for the time period in question. Olessi (talk) 20:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suggest we follow the spirit of the vote, it is only logical, as I explained above, that the city name would be changed after the takeover, not before. The logic is the same as in, for example, "splitting atom into subparticles": first, you have atom; than, you have suparticles. The Danzig variant is as logical as saying "splitting subparticles into subparticles" :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope the vote is between 1308 and 1945 (btw it was ignored that the vote was against this actually). So only after 1308. Of course this is historical ignorance in favour of misleading readers as to actual date of Germanisation of the name. But false information on Wikipedia is not surprising.--Molobo (talk) 20:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

To be accurate, the vote summary says "use the name Danzig between 1308 and 1945" and "use the name Gdańsk before 1308 and after 1945". Olessi (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
To be even more accurate, this vote - a sad excuse for scholarly expertise - also assumed that "1308: Teutonic Knights", which of course, as this article shows, is not as clear. The TK did not take over Gdansk on the 1st January of the year, and until they did, it was know as Gdansk. It's quite simple - so I strongly suggest we avoid any more wikilawyering w/ regards to this issue.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Piotrus, you ignore the vote, you ignore the conveniently placed coin that shows that Danceke was used well before 1308, and yet you claim "it was know as Gdansk", and perform move warring, together with Space Cadet? The article must be moved back to its original name Teutonic takeover of Danzig, which conforms both to the vote and to sources. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
But not to common sense, huh? And what sources, do tell? In any case, if you want this article moved so much, try WP:RM.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Danzig vote ruled that from the foundation of the city to the Teutonic takeover in 1308 the city will be referred to as "Gdańsk". From that point up to the end of WW II (even for periods when the city was a part of Poland again 1466 - 1792) it will be referred to as "Danzig". The vote itself has only a date "1308" and that's the only base of Matthead's argumentation. Here we can't go by the letter, we have to go by the spirit and common sense. Teutonic Knights invaded GDAŃSK and from then on it is known as Danzig. What he proposes is like calling the city Danzig until January 1st 1946, while it returned to Poland already in March 1945. We have to use common sense on this one. The "Danceke" case, of course, is against the Gdańsk vote completely. Space Cadet (talk) 14:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. The Knights did not invade, the were called to defend the castle of Danzig, as the King of Poland in far away Cracow could not help. Polish involvement was short-lived and weak compared to that of Pomeranians, Brandenburgers, German/Hanseatic merchants, and Teutonic Knights. To put it short: no Polish business before and after 1308, and no Gdansk either. -- Matthead  Discuß   03:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk) → Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk — As was explained above by me and most recently summed up by Space Cadet, Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk and this led to the city's name change to Danzig for the next few centuries. They did not take over Danzig, just as Khrushchev did not change the name of Volgograd but of Stalingrad. The (in)famous Gdansk vote is not clear on this, but logic again dictates that the name Danzig should be used for all events after this takeover which was the catalyst for various namechanges (as the names were not changed before the takeover, but afterwards). Finally, double naming is not recommended (and by above logic, IF we wanted double naming, it should be Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk (Danzig)).—Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Nominator support per above rationale. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per my explanation above. Space Cadet (talk) 18:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose The vote is unclear because it is flawed. Charles 00:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose The proper name, historically and according to the vote, is Teutonic takeover of Danzig, and that is why the article had been created under that name before move warriors pushed it to other names. The city with its German merchants and German Lübeck law rights already was known and documented as Danzig (Danceke, Dantzike) for decades before 1308. -- Matthead  Discuß   10:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Wouldn't local english variant rule come into play? When there are two variants, we go with what the creator used? Narson (talk) 11:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per Space Cadets' explanation. - Darwinek (talk) 12:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per logic and fact that we shouldn't press Germanised names that appeared later.--Molobo (talk) 20:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Danzig fits better in the resp time period than Gdansk. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose I have seen no evidence that "Gdańsk" constitutes even a simple majority in terms of common use in literature (see my discussion below). "Gdańsk" fails both WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. This article should be moved to Teutonic takeover of Danzig. Wilhelm meis (talk) 16:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose and agree with Wilhelm meis. The "logic" does not work: neither Danzig nor Gdańsk is really a medieval word, but both have Latin antecedents that occur before 1308. The Teutonic Knights did not change the name of the city, they merely conquered it. I think Siege of Danzig (1308) might be a good title, but would have to do more research first. Srnec (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The siege of the Danzig's castle(!) by Brandenburg was only a part of the events, and the Teutonic Knights were called to defend it, which they successfully did. Only afterwards, they took control of castle and city of Danzig. -- Matthead  Discuß   03:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It's all fine, but there is no real way of checking the current title to the literature, so this move debate is not really about this article's title but about how to refer to a certain city. Srnec (talk) 03:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

Is there a more formal term used in literature for this event? Perhaps "Siege of Danzig (1308)" or something? I don't know how the current title could be tested against the sources accurately. Srnec (talk) 04:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

A quick notability check strongly suggests that "Teutonic takeover of Danzig" would be the common name for this article. Wilhelm meis (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
What check? Please describe the methodology.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

A google search for "Teutonic takeover of Danzig -Wikipedia" yields 2,580 results, but a google search for "Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk -Wikipedia" yields only 579 results. Adding "-Wikipedia" to the search criteria removes any Wikipedia-related search results, meaning that Wikipedia content cannot skew the results. Hope this helps! Wilhelm meis (talk) 06:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. In future, please provide links to searches, this eliminates the need to ask how did one gather the data. I wonder how many of those results are still wiki mirrors, even with "-wikipedia". Do note than neither search ([2], [3]) is found in literature. I would like however to direct your attention to this search: a lot of books by prominent scholars such as Norman Davies use Gdańsk in this context: "the Knights over the seizure of Gdansk in 1308", "The monk- knights also subjugated Pomerania on the lower Vistula, a Christian country, and massacred the people of Gdansk (1308)", "The Teutonic Knights, who captured Gdansk in 1308, destroyed the Slavonic town", "After the Teutonic Knights conquered Gdansk in 1308"... A similar search for Danzig ([4]) suggests that the isage of Gdańsk and Danzig is roughly as popular.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 10:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This article should be on the historical issue and not a base for pushing agendas not related to the event. An even better name would be takeover of the Danzig fortress, as the conflict was about the fort and not so much about the town...Skäpperöd (talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The walls, not the town.Skäpperöd (talk) 04:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
How so? I quoted above one source about massacre of city's inhabitants, another about the destruction of the town. You can find more info on that, the bottom line is that the Knights sacked/razed/burned the city, killed most if its Slavic inhabitants, and settled their own Germanized settlers on the ruins. Hence Gdańsk became Danzig.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
You need to be careful with that massacre legend. Also, that town's name was not Gdansk when the knights moved in.Skäpperöd (talk) 19:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

OK Piotrus, I'll be sure to include links in future discussions. For now, I might point out that while your search for Gdańsk 1308 yielded 687 results, my equivalent search for Danzig 1308 yielded 697 results, again suggesting that Danzig wins by a narrow margin. My point is simply that Gdańsk is not clearly the common name. These search results are what I would classify as inconclusive, even if one completely disregards my initial results [5] [6]. Wilhelm meis (talk) 04:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Neither is Danzig a common name. Both names are roughly as popular, and simple logic dictates that for this case, Gdańsk is more correct (the name was changed AFTER the takeover, not before it, and not during it).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
And then there are these 13 books (Danzig 1308) vs these 12 books (Gdansk 1308), and these 14 books (Teutonic Danzig) vs these 14 books (Teutonic Gdansk), and then there are these 7 books (Teutonic Danzig) vs these 7 books (Teutonic Gdansk) and these 8 books (Danzig 1308) vs this 1 book (Gdansk 1308). My point here is that Danzig is used a bit more in the literature than Gdansk. Sorry, but I don't see any sound logic for renaming to Gdańsk within the WP naming conventions and guidelines. To the contrary, I see a fairly solid case for renaming to Danzig. Wilhelm meis (talk) 16:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Google Book scans given here have not indicated to me a definitive preference one way or another. In my personal experience, most of the books I have read have used Danzig, but I can understand Piotrus' rationale. In the absence of further evidence, I am thus indifferent to whether Gdańsk or Danzig is used; I highly doubt either was the "official" name of the city seven hundred years ago. If there is a desire to only have a single name in the title, Tumult of Thorn (Toruń) should be moved back to Tumult of Thorn accordingly. Olessi (talk) 20:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Danceke - Dantzig - Dantzic - Danzig in Pomerania/Pomerelia/Prussia

Pomerania was a part of the Holy Roman Empire since the 1100s and was granted as lien from the empire directly since 1181. In the 1200s several times the local rulers of the Pomeranian Samboriben received the ducal Herzog titles from the empire, thereby the lien to govern the land, and the Margraves of Brandenburg were overlords over Pomerania and Pomerelia.

In the 1220s the German-Law city named Danceke was founded under the government of a Pomeranian Herzog/duke, a part of the HRE. His seal identifies him as Zwantepolc de Danceke and he ruled from 1220-1266. In 1263 the burghers of Danzig had their status verified by requesting a copy of the Lübeck Law.

It was Dantzig, a German-Law city with German-language burghers, which was in 1308 taken over by the Teutonic Order and Pomerelia became part of Prussia, governed by the T.O. The city of Danzig remained part of Prussia continously until the 20th century.

Only in 1945 were the inhabitants drastically changed to foreigners.

Wikipedia constantly shows entries such as by Molobo and Piotrus (and by many more people) above.

Wikipedia may indefinately continue pretending, that all what is Poland since 1945, "has always been Poland" (or rather 'if it was conquered by Poland a 1000 - thousand years ago, it should again be conquered by Poland).

But that does not change the facts of history as they really happened. It is only unfortunate, that Wikipedia contains and mirrors so much of this type of lopsidedness. An Observer 07.06. 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.69.190 (talk) 17:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)