Talk:Terry Shannon

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== Goodbye, Terry! ==

You know, one of the few things I really hate about Wikipedia is that, of late, it's become a vehicle through which I've been finding out that people I numbered among my "extended friends" are now dead. First Alan Kotok and now Terry Shannon. :-(

So long, Terry!

Atlant 16:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Intro to VAX VMS

"Intro to VAX VMS" did sell an astounding number of copies. And Terry didn't get paid for any of it. Which explains why he left Professional Press and went to Digital Review. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.67.104.4 (talk • contribs) .

Atlant, although I didn't find out about Terry's demise through Wikipedia, I agree with you that there are some things about it that I really dislike. Just yesterday, someone (an overzealous undergraduate student with far too high an opinion of his/her oown objectivity) ripped out at least half of what I'd written about Terry. Plus, the entire "Charlie Matco" wiki I wrote is now gone, due to said overzealous and destructive undergrad's holier-than-thou opinion of what is an appropriate "point-of-view." Somewhere on the skhpc.com page, which is now full of tributes to Terry from his extended circle of friends, someone said he'd started this wiki for Terry. I wish more of Terry's friends (and fewer self-important weenies who have no idea who he was) would contribute their reflections of Terry, even if their contributions might be called "anecdotal" or "unverified" by said weenies. Yes, 208.67.104.4, Terry did say he'd been ripped off by Professional Press, and never saw dime one from the sales of his "Introduction to VAX/VMS" book; that was one of the biggest reasons he severed his relationship with that outfit. I knew Terry for nearly 40 years, ever since freshman year (with the Christian Brothers) in 1966. Sure, most of what I write about him is anecdotal; but every word is true. And I know more than I could ever write about. Long live Charlie Matco! Cheers, Dr. Tom Capo (a.k.a. Dr. Memory)

Rant all you want - Wikipedia is not the place for personal memorials or reflections. Read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Information has to have reliable, verifiable sources, not just your word that it is true (see Wikipedia:No original research) - and even if it is true, it has to be of some usefulness to people outside the small cadre that personally knew this man. If you want to memorialize without people interfering, build your own website. Wikipedia is not the place for it. If I didn't clean this article up to wiki standards, another editor surely would have. You don't have control over the content of Wikipedia, even articles you start yourself - see Wikipedia:Ownership of articles - so get used to people changing your writing because it doesn't meet long-established, consensus-built policies. — Swpb talk contribs 02:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Let me be clear about this; I have no conflict of interest here. I stated that I numbered Terry Shannon among my "extended friends", not my close friends. And to this point, the only editing I've done on this article were three edits of a Wikignomish nature. But there is no doubt in my mind that Terry's experience with several different commercially-successful publications makes him worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. "Charlie Matco" was a legend in the customer base of Digital Equipment Corporation. So I'm going to be bold and remove the tags that have just been added to the article. If you disagree with me, put the article up for AfD. Atlant 01:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Note that the mention is by editor Mike Magee who often quoted Mr. Shannon when writing in The Register and The Inquirer, referring to him as Our old mate Terry Shannon, while others writers there called him "our chum" and "old Reg chum". Magee wrote about Shannon's death in June 2005, "VERY DEAR friend Terry Shannon died earlier this week." Sad as it may be, Wikipedia is not the place for memorials to dead friends. --LeflymanTalk 18:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Why are you citing to numerous outside sources and past events in an attempt to support your contention that Wikipedia is not the place for a memorial? Is there memorial content in the article or not? More importantly, is there non-memorial content in the article or not? The sheer number of comments that you, as the AfD nom, have made in the past two days attacking contributors, attacking outside persons, and raising irrelevant issues concerning content outside of the Wikipedia article display an inappropriate lack of objectivity. Please re-read WP:BIO once more, because relevant factors include: 1. The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field; 2. published authors, editors and photographers who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work; 3. engineers and other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse) and who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field. Numerous contributors have referenced the Introduction to VAX/VMX text and other published articles. The article state at the time you made the AfD nom included a non-trivial discussion of these writings, although citations and external refernces were needed. There were a total of two (2) external links to memorial sites in the article at the time of the AfD, and no memorial content. In short: focus on the relevant article content, not the irrelevant, not-in-article non-content. DrWitty 12:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AFD was going nowhere good

I closed the AFD as it was going nowhere good. The discussion can be seen at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Terry Shannon. Friday (talk) 19:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping we could pick up some additional sources and maybe a few more volunteers. I guess you thought we were only gonna get vandals. Oh well. WAS 4.250 20:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm still hoping we get better sources. If you want to unclose it and let it run, feel free, I just thought it was a bit out of control. Friday (talk) 20:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd be happy to see some actual sourced material to the article -- rather than content generated by the subject himself and his friends. The NetworkWorld article is close-- but it's about (and based on) the memorial web site for Terry Shannon created by his friend, Ken Farmer, rather than being an independent article about the subject. Does a single article in a trade journal make this notable? --LeflymanTalk 20:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • How about the itnews and techweb articles ? Just because you have no knowledge of the subject matter dosn't mean that you have to slander everyone based on a subjective opinion 70.49.180.3 20:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
And just because you have no knowledge of how Wikipedia works, I won't hold it against you. All the ITNews article says about Terry is "Shannon, author of the newsletter "Shannon Knows HPC..." While the TechWeb article likewise calls him a "longtime observer" and notes, "Terry Shannon, publisher of Shannon Knows HPC newsletter." Later on, it mentions "Shannon, who has written a book on VMS..." That's about all the similar citations that can be reliably sourced. Likewise, Exn.ca; EETimes; Electronic News. None of these articles are actually about the subject, but just quote him for the tech version of color commentary.--LeflymanTalk 21:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Philip_Stark - bad reference link, only a generic IMDB listing.
  • Camden_Toy IMDB reference, and official site, hardly notable.
  • Jay_Gorney links to scores don't work, has a link to a memorial site. Again, hardly notable.
  • Geronimo_Black nothing of note, no citations from well read sources. Broken external link
Feel free to delete those as well.70.49.180.3 21:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Are you done comparing biographies of performers to those of a tech newsletter writer? Try Google searching, and feel free to add sourcing to the articles. (See, for example, [2]; [3]; [4]; [5].) Thanks,--LeflymanTalk 22:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • [6] and [7] are just lists of works, which Terry certainly dosn't lack. Furthermore [8] is curiously empty. You'd think someone noteworthy would have a biography. Though of interest to a limited audiance the links you provided for Camden_Toy may prove noteworthyness. However, since they do not appear on the article in question which you initiated it should still be considered for deletion. You also claim he was only a tech newsletter writer, clearly ignoring his published works. I am not sure how this bias is helping the situation.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.49.180.3 (talk) 22:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
  • You're welcome to take the issue up on their respective Talk pages -- this isn't the place to discuss other articles.--LeflymanTalk 22:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't think much of anything helpful is going to get done with this article until the slashdot effect dies down. — Swpb talk contribs 20:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Obviously not, but I'm going to watch this, because it still lacks sources. -Amarkov moo! 22:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps consider searching the web for the text string "according to terry shannon" 207.126.230.225 05:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neil Rieck's Personal Contact With Terry Shannon

(this personal account should not be in the main article so I put it here)

Although I had read Terry's articles for more than 10 years, I finally was able to meet him face-to-face at the two-day OpenVMS Technical Update Days (TUD) in June, 2003 at Ottawa, Ontario. Terry and I kept in touch by email over the years and leaned on each other just a little bit because we had something in common: I had a very mild depression related to SAD and he had a much stronger depression related to Vietnam (his words not mine). I would always try to be supportive but how could my little problem relate at all to what he was going through?

Terry shot from the hip. At an "HP sponsored" OpenVMS event in Toronto in February 2005 (and maybe other places too) Terry said a few true things, albiet not politically correct things, about then recently ousted HP CEO, Carly Fiorina. (I know this to be true because I was there when it happened). His meds also made him fall asleep at the strangest times and I saw him doze-off a few times during this February event. I'm not sure what HP execs thought of Terry's statements or sleeping in public but they couldn't have thought it was good. (Note: remember that Terry had a long history with DEC and Compaq; HP merged with Compaq in 2002 and that's when HP management would have first been exposed to Terry)

http://www.encompasscanada.com/seminar-tor05-speakernotes-icouldhavehadaV8point2.htm

Some time after 2003-02 (I can't remember if it was one or two months) his main job as an OpenVMS Evangelist for HP was terminated by HP (his words not mine). He told me by email (I think it was around Easter) that he was at his wits end because the VA had stopped funding of the meds he was using to control his depression and that they were very expensive.

Sadly, he took his own life in May 2005. Good bye Terry. You were a good friend.

--Neilrieck 11:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page rewrite

I have re-written the main page in the light of yesterday's events. It has been restructured and numerous citations added. It is still a work in progress. Pinkboy 11:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

So what did he die of, then? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Palecitrus (talk • contribs).
Interestingly, not much is said about this, but I think it is important. It was a suicide, method undisclosed, purportedly due to Post_traumatic_stress_disorder, something Terry struggled with since Nam. I am not an expert in the field, and am basing my comment solely upon my limited interactions with Terry and the limited details revealed postmortem.--Alphaman 15:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Aaron, some of us know how he died, and in details surrounding his illness in the last few days of his life (I spoke to him on the phone for over an hour just a couple days before his demise); but publicizing them serves no benefit. Dan Schwartz, Expresso@Snip.Net Discpad 15:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
While there are citations, there still aren't really sources. Nearly all of them do not even mention him except as "HP analyst says this". -Amarkov moo! 05:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

If there are still a lack of sources that Wikipedia finds useable to sustain a biographical article in oh say a month or so, I suggest we move what is here and sourced to good sources to an article on his book Introduction to VAX/VMS. WAS 4.250 06:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Assuming, of course, that there are good sources for the book. I haven't seen any, but then again, I haven't been bothering to check if stuff on the book was sourced. -Amarkov moo! 06:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Guys, can you please link me to the article in wiki about the criteria of citations, sources etc? I want to understand exactly what the requirements there are, since I think we've already established that the articles meets the 'contribution to field' aspect of WP:BIO. Thanks. Pinkboy 10:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, don't worry - I found WP:CITE. Working through it now.Pinkboy 17:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Also see: Attribution, in particular the section on No Original Research; and Reliable Sources.--LeflymanTalk 18:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


Being fortunate enough to study at the second best University in the world, which incidentally has the largest copyright library in the world, I have ordered up multiple editions of Digital Review, as well as various other publications and books authored by Shannon, from the Bodleian library. Since much of Terry's work was produced offline, I hope to work up a number of sources for the various statements in the Wikipedia entry that are not otherwise available online. I trust this will be to everyone's satisfaction! Pinkboy 21:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More vandalism

Unfortunately, someone has been vandalizing the Terry Shannon entry, removing copious external links.

Discpad 01:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

There aren't supposed to be copious external links, but I also don't see any removed. -Amarkov moo! 02:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boston Magazine Article, new picture

There's a great article about Terry in Boston Magazine. It's been uploaded as a PDF under fair use rights - it's good stuff, well worth the read for those interested. I've also uploaded a better picture, taken from the Inquirer. Pinkboy 14:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • It's a good find, and the critical piece that took this from an article that was unsourced to one that meets the attribution requirements of WP:BIO. However, it is entirely contrary to Wikimedia policy to upload copyrighted material such as this, even under the claim of Fair Use. It will likely be deleted soon. I would suggest, if you want to provide access to it, it needs to be hosted somewhere else (and with the permission of Boston Magazine.)--LeflymanTalk 01:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • So, people apparently can't be proved to be notable when their status is questioned by an ignorant admin unless there is non-copyrighted/online material ? If Boston Magazine doesn't give their permission, will an admin come around in the future and mark this for deletion again ? What if noone can find the article in question again? Technically it would make it "unsourced" [sic] again. What a wonderful policy.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.159.198.159 (talk • contribs) 15:22, 16 March 2007
  • If you have an issue with how attribution works on Wikipedia-- or for that matter, how research is done for encyclopaedias-- feel to take it up the appropriate policy page. If you don't have any actual suggestions as to how to make this a better article, then please move on.--LeflymanTalk 22:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Sorry but you danced around the question, again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.100.6.239 (talk) 16:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
  • There wasn't a question; there was, however, a lot of rhetorical bloviating. --LeflymanTalk 20:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • TBH, even if the PDF gets pulled, the ref will still be there, and that's what counts. People can always go and get the article for themselves. Pinkboy 13:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2ndAFD

(See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Terry Shannon (2nd nomination).)

Removed due to snowball.Pinkboy 14:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed due to my withdrawl, actually. Snowball is a stupid reason for closing an AfD. -Amarkov moo! 15:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It's also stupid to go after someone for no good reason. This article should never have been marked for deletion, seeking references is a different matter. Glad to see wiki is still in shambles. Amusing the number of meatpuppet etc comments you made, and the sweeping claims of no notoriety given how wrong you were. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.159.198.159 (talk) 22:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
People are still complaining now that I've withdrawn the nomination? What exactly am I supposed to do? Oh, and by the way, the meatpuppet comments were true; I really don't make accusations of meatpuppetry lightly. -Amarkov moo! 02:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)