Talk:Terrorism in Syria

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12/12/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on 25/7/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

This aricle contains confused terminology. It appears to take a concept "state terrorism", run with it, and turn events into a classic fork in the process.

1. The article says "Several groups and individuals have claimed that Syria engages in state terrorism." The problem is - they haven't. At no point are Syria accused of "state terrorism." According to the sources provided on the page the US have have accused Syria of State-sponsored terrorism. We already know this because Syria is on the U.S. list of state sponsors of international terrorism. Either the two concepts, State-sponsored terrorism and state terrorism are the same - meaning that the title and pages need be addressed or merged to avoid forking, or they are different - meaning that this title is false.
2. Any title of this nature should be "allegations of..." to remain NPOV.
3. The references refer only to our US sponsored terrorism claim, a PBS link to the same claims, 2 UK govenment decisions dating back to 1986, and a blog which does not meet WP:RS.

I suggest that the material here should be sorted, salvaged and added to the State-sponsored terrorism page. And that this page should be deleted.--Zleitzen 16:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Then you should put it for AFD again. That is the Wiki process. ThanksRaveenS 22:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Or on a second note let's discuss, one thing at a time. State sponsored and State terrorism in not the same. What Syria does within Syria is State terrorism. What Syria did within Lebanon while it was in charge is State terrorism. What it did after leaving Lebanon is State sponsored terrorism. If that is so the only items that should be in this page is what Syria is being accused of doing such as the massacre of Muslim brotherhood, its attack on its Kurdish minority (not well known) and its attack on civilian dissenters in Lebanon while it was in charge as well as in Syria.RaveenS 22:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

RaveenS, you have consistently forwarded the line on this and other articles that the definition of state terrorism is well defined and mutually agreed. This definition now seems to be unclear, and I have yet to read a universally agreed defintion from a reliable source. Regardless, be aware that it doesn't matter what our definitions of "state terrorism" are. What we need to ascertain is what the sources provided say. In this case, none of the sources refer to "state terrorism". They refer to "state sponsored terrorism" which you agree is something different. Therefore it would seem to be the case that the title of this page is wrong and the material here should be sorted, salvaged and added to the State-sponsored terrorism page.--Zleitzen 23:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, a completely different article needs to be written about State terrorism by Syria. This after sorted can be State sponsored terrorism by Syria ? or Part of State sponsored terrorism page. My only problem with the latter is that examples tend to confuse the definition as many editors end of messing up the definition in their haste to contest the example. It is better to leave it as a separate article and link it to the main page as a line item. As such I propose after we go through this page to rename it as State sponsored terrorism by Syria ?

I will proceed on the basis of your recommendation. Be aware that a page titled "Allegations of State terrorism by Syria" would need to be reliant on notable sources that describe acts as "state terrorism".--Zleitzen 00:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unilateral move by KazakhPol

"Terrorism in Syria" is a pretty misleading title, given the discussion on terrorism perpetrated in Syria (which doesn't much happen, given the Ba'ath approach to dealing with internal dissent) as opposed terrorism support/encouraged/funded/sponsored by Syria (which happens a lot). I don't know what moved KazakhPol to make this decision unilaterally, but the result is a completely misleading title and opening sentence. I don't want to get into a revert war by moving it back, but it seems important that we arrive at a consensus and apply it consistently for states such as this. --Leifern 19:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on the "unilateral" aspect of my move of the page title. You may have noticed the many many pages that conform to this naming style - specifically the Terrorism in X country style. See Category:Terrorism by country. Also, there are/have been terrorist organizations within Syria that seek to overthrow the state, such as the Arab Communist Organization[1], the Popular Revolutionary Resistance Organization [2], the Front for the Liberation of Lebanon from Foreigners [3], the Syrian Social Nationalist Party [4], Takfir wa-Hijra [5], of course the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan [6], the Lebanese Liberation Front [7], and many others. KazakhPol 19:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, a couple of points.

1. The term "terrorism" seems to invite a lot of trouble here in Wikipedia, and I think we have to either avoid it altogether or use it consistently. As it is, we're converging on an implicit point of view that terrorism aimed at Jewish target is somehow and perversely something less than the same acts aimed at others.
2. There is a distinction between terrorism within a state (presumably aimed at the current regime/government) and terrorism that the state supports, encourages, or sponsors. Ideally, there should be one article for each topic rather than conflating them. --Leifern 22:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Please read the explanation on Category:Designated terrorist organizations. However, if you feel that Terrorism in Syria and Terrorism by Syria are each worthy of their own pages, then I have no problem starting a second page. Perhaps the Terrorism in Syria page could mention the allegations of state terrorism with a link to this page? KazakhPol 03:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)