Talk:Territorial changes of Germany
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[edit] Reversion of "German language area" map
My conception of this article is that it is only about changes in the territory actually formally annexed or ceded by Germany. Thus, by this defintion, we would not include any part of France or Russia that was occupied but not formally annexed. Similarly, a map which shows "German language area" would appear to be about something other than "official borders of Germany". This is why I removed it from this article.
I think the map could be of use in an article which explained the motivation behind the territorial claims of German nationalists, especially the Nazis. It could also be of use in History of German settlement in Eastern Europe. I just don't think it is appropriate to the scope of this article.
--Richard 01:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- cant see any reason why to fullfill Godwin's Law ... Aborvegyro 08:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Schleswig-Holstein Question
Isn't this another topic here?--Kresspahl 15:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- No. The scope of this article starts in 1871 with the creation of Germany after the Franco-Prussian war. Thus, the Schleswig-Holstein question belongs in the article on Prussia. --Richard 16:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig_Plebiscites were in 1920.--Kresspahl 18:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
copy and paste
[edit] Territorial changes of Germany
.svg/20px-Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_(after_1400).svg.png){kind=small}
.svg/20px-Flag_of_Germany_(2-3).svg.png){kind=small}
.svg/20px-Flag_of_Germany_(1946-1949).svg.png){kind=small}
. (Nota: The Heiliges Römischesr Reich Deutscher Nation - which is larger than Deutschland - on its part lost too; it lost German and romanic speaking territories as well.)
Thanks for your message on my Talk Page. As it turns out, I had just reverted your edits and was coming to your Talk Page to leave a more detailed explanation. The envisioned scope of the Territorial changes of Germany is to discuss changes to Germany after the formation of Germany as a country (Reich/Empire) in 1871. Prior to that, Germany did not exist as a sovereign state and so it makes no sense to discuss "territorial changes of Germany".
Your edits might be more relevant to a discussion of the Holy Roman Empire.
--Richard 08:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- Nope. Germany (existed) long before the Deutsches Reich was founded. The lemma doesn't say the article is only bout the Deutsches Reich. The Holy Roman Empire comprised Germany, Bohemia, parts of Italy and so on. And Germany lost territories from approx 1130 to 1806. Regards. Aborvegyro 08:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC) postscriptum: I'll transfer this to the discussion page.
/copy and paste
conclusion: Germany lost territory long before 1871.(Of course the territorial loses could be relevant for the article on [Holy Roman Empire]] too.) Regards Aborvegyro 08:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- Please read the article Germany. There is a history of the "German nation" prior to 1871 but Germany came into being as a nation-state in 1871. If you disagree, please follow the Wikipedia dispute resolution process.
- --Richard 08:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I know the article Germany pretty well. But I can't see any reason why not to mention the medieval losses (from 1130 to 1806) of Germany in this more precise lemma. Would you please be kind enough to explain? Aborvegyro 08:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- The explanation is simple... there is at least a partial consensus among editors that "Germany" refers to the nation state which was formed in 1871, divided in 1945 and reunited in 1990. That's what the Germany article says. This issue was also brought up in discussions about the title of the Former eastern territories of Germany article. There are many names that refer to Germany or parts of Germany prior to 1871...Prussia, German Federation, Holy Roman Empire. It all depends on what time period you are referring to. However, there is no time prior to 1871 when there was a sovereign state called "Germany".
- If you insist, we can re-open the question and bring in other opinions to settle the issue. I leave the ball in your court.
- --Richard 08:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- I know the article Germany pretty well. But I can't see any reason why not to mention the medieval losses (from 1130 to 1806) of Germany in this more precise lemma. Would you please be kind enough to explain? Aborvegyro 08:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Nope, not true. The noun Deutschland = Germany is not bordered to Deutsches Reich, Bundesrepublik Deutschland and so on. Espacially in regard to the time before 1806 that's simply wrong. But don't worry. I won't pick a ball to play wiki-bureaucracy-games. If you insist, use a wrong definition to write a wrongly bordered article. It's not that important. Regards. Aborvegyro 08:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC) (I won't even revert it any more)
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- I like to hold myself to two reverts and I've made those already so I won't revert your edits again. I have asked for opinions from other editors at Talk:Germany and Talk:History of Germany. Let's see what other people think. I will abide by consensus.
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- --Richard 09:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I strongly advise to everybody to kindly read the chapter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Holy_Roman_Empire_.28843.E2.80.931806.29 in the article Deutschland; this will make clear the noun is used in the way I described it. I'm interested in what other people think too; nevertheless I have to remark that facts are not an affair of opinions. Regards Aborvegyro 10:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
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Why don't you check out the actual article on the Holy Roman Empire? here, I will quote the opening of it, adding emphasis where needed:
The Holy Roman Empire was a supranational state, a conglomeration of mainly Germanic and Italian lands, consisting of kingdoms, principalities, duchies, counties, other lordships, and republics (Free Cities of the Empire) in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It was a socio-political construct of the papacy and German dynasties brought into existence in the hopes of re-creating the Western Roman Empire equal to the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. Throughout most of its existence, though, it was a weak confederacy
To sum up, the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to Deutschland, but it was not Deutschland
--Jadger 11:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Wrong: The Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation (Holy Roman Empire) was a precursor to Deutsches Reich, the Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation, the Deutscher Bund, the Deutsches Reich, the Bundesrepublik Deutschland as well as the Deutsche Demokratische Republik have all been Deutschland. Aborvegyro 12:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- (By the way: firstly: wikipedia is not a source, secondly: Throughout its existence the United States of America have been a confederacy. And there have been territorial changes too. I can't see any relevance if a state is a confederacy or not.)
The concept of the German nation as we interpret and use it today is based on the modern conception of nationalism, national identity and national territory, concepts that did not exist at the times of the Holy Roman Empire, so that it doesn't make any sense to interpret it in these terms. It was neither a national nor a supranational state because nations in their contemporary definition did not exist. And the discussion here also omits that the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to both Germany and Austria, demonstrating that Germany and the Holy Roman Empire are not identical. Jonas78 19:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- The 'situation in the 14th century map is very nice. Do you have a copy showing the whole of europe at that time in that exact style? I would like to see a series of maps of Germany, in relation to Europe, from the 14th century until present time. That would give a common reference point and enable a better view of the change in territory.
Thanks! --JamesR1701E 06:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
