Talk:Terra nullius
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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.228.129.11 (talk • contribs)
legal fiction has a technical legal meaning (which is described in the Wikipedia article on it.)
Based on the relevant legal documents, I believe this page title should be spelt "Terra nullius" - but I don't want to tackle the reversing of the redirection yet.
- zig 12:03, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There is no way that the section of the article under 'Discussions' is NPOV. It's simply an attack on Reynolds, not presenting the other side at all. |
- A somewhat nebulous criticism, but I see your point. I think I might rework some of that. --bainer (talk) 07:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Australia section
The section needs to explain Reynolds arguments in more detail to be NPOV. It should explain what Reynolds is arguing and any evidence he uses to support his position. Criticism of his position should be attributed to a notable critic. Somebody notable must have written some sort of critique rebutting Reynolds's argument, say an Australian historian a major Australian university for example. As it stands, the section reads like "Reynolds has aurgued...but he is wrong becuase..." which isn't NPOV. --Cab88 11:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC).
March 2006: I have now added to the page a reference to Michael Connor's book, based on his PhD thesis: check it out. I think that this should be considered "notable" enough. - Michael in Canberra [no relation to Connor] ...
This section is quite incredible! It is extremely POV from a political perspective, and tries to use questionable historical documents to support a purely legalistic interpretation of what was a common and unfortunate "unofficial" policy of the day. The simple reason there's no documents supporting "Terra Nullius" is that there was no recognition that Aboriginal people were "settled" at all. Aboriginals were considered to be "nomads" as they had no known permenent settlements or habitations as Europeans understood them. Cab88 has a good point above, but there has to be some way of reconciling the cultural reality, as well as the documented history in a truely NPOV document. After all, "history" is written by the winners... Johnpf 03:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC).
More from Michael in Canberra: - This is quite ridiculous. Terra nullius is (- the Latin gives it away) a legal doctrine. No-one - least of all the first British Governor, Arthur Phillip, - imagined Australia was in fact uninhabited. To the contrary, the lettter Phillip bore from the King expresssly referred to the native people and gave him instructions about policy towards them. Terra nullius was NOT the name for an unofficial policy.
Whoever made the recent changes did a pretty good job - I'm not convinced it's NPOV, but it doesnt read like a rant by an aging Qld cattle farmer any more. Johnpf 18:14, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe there's still a major problem with the article's section on Australia. The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that the entire section needs to be moved into another article, and a short, READABLE summery be placed there along the lines of "There has been mixed interpretations as to whether the concept of Terra Nullius was ever used to justify the settlement of Australia. There is no doubt that there is no documentation thjat shows the application of Terra Nullius at the time, however in the 1970s it was ajudged by Justice Blackburn to have aplied. This has since been invalidated by subsequent court cases. Refer History wars,Native title and a specific article on this in Oz." . Most of this article is currently not about Terra Nullius, but is about Australia's issues with the concept.
The rest of the article needs to be edited into something that normal people can read - has most of this been lifted from some kind of really hard-to-read textbook? Look at the 'Rationale' section: there are 7 sentences, with 360 words, meaning an average sentence length of 51 words per sentence. Most people start to struggle after about 25 words per sentence! What's written there no doubt makes sense to lawyers, but not to "normal people", and I doubt that WP would be where a lawyer would be seeking a definition of the term. Can someone who knows what that 'Rationale' section means turn it into something accessible? Johnpf 01:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
"As in Antiquity peace was considered an exceptional condition between states, only established by peace treaty, war being their natural rapport, any territory that was not explicitly recognized as legitimately possessed by a treaty partner was considered free to be legitimately occupied, even by offensive war." This is a mad one sentence opening paragraph, has it been lifted from an old copy of Britannica? Are there any references or attributions to this POV? (MarkG Feb 2006)
[edit] In Defense of Henry Reynolds
Whoever wrote that line about Henry Reynolds and "his many followers on the left of Australian history" has obviously not picked up the "Journal of Australian Historical Studies"( Vol 32 issue#117), or Henry Reynolds's "Aboriginal Identity". As Merete Borch explains in "Rethinking the Origins of Terra Nullius" (2001) the legal doctrine of terra nullius was not established until the 19th century, well after the beginnings of European colonialization (224). Most importantly, Borch asserts that it was the establishment of New South Wales in Australia as a penal colony that played a huge significance in the transformation of terra nullius from an archaic agreement between territories into an international doctrine of law (224). Additionally, Henry Reynolds in his book "Aboriginal Identity" in no way makes the assertion that the colonial powers believed that "Australia was 'a tract of territory practically unoccupied, without settled inhabitants or settled law.'" In fact, upon reading the book one would find that Reynolds clearly states that terra nullius coupled property rights and sovereignty in English common law. With the Mabo case however, according to Reynolds “demolished the concept of terra nullius in respect of property” (3). Instead terra nullius would be upheld with respect to sovereignty of Aboriginal people. I highly recommend anyone to read some of Reynolds's work. In doing so, such a ignorant comment could be understood and forgiven. —This unsigned comment was added by Bakerflip12 (talk • contribs) .
- Reynolds shouldn't be the centre of discussion at all. When I finish my rewrite of Mabo v Queensland I'll come back and rewrite the section on TN in Australia. --bainer (talk) 07:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Reynolds should be the centre of discussion in as much as much of the animus and accusations of inaccuracy are directed against him.--Jack Upland 10:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rewrite for Australia
What we need is:
- Evidence for when TN was first used as a term in Australia - rather than simple assertions it was first used in the 1970s or 90s!
- Quotations (or at least citations) of Henry Reynolds and others putting their view.
- A general rewrite to make it more than a regurgitation of Connor's argument.--Jack Upland 00:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks to John of Patmos for providing the relevant court decisions.--Jack Upland 00:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Someone is demanding citations for these court decisions. They are citations. A website or magazine might be easily to check but it isn't more reliable!--Jack Upland 23:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Copies of the decisions can be found at [http://www.law.mq.edu.au/scnsw/ "Macquarie University, Decisions of the Superior Courts of New South Wales, 1788-1899"]-- John of Patmos 10:28AM, 6 September 2006 (AEST)
- I'll put that in.--Jack Upland 11:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Antarctica and the moon
Is it correct to say that Antarctica is terra nullius? My understanding is that several nations claim sovereignty over all or part of it, but they have each agreed (by treaty) not to enforce their claims, and each other signatory to the treaty has agreed not to make fresh claims. It might be more accurate to describe the moon as terra nullius pursuant to the Outer Space Treaty.
Legis 15:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, "terra nullius" really means "empty land", not "no one's land", and Antartica is certainly that.--Jack Upland (talk) 12:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Legitimate reasons for war
- such as the moral principles of Christianity or Islam, which reversed the 'natural war' by considering peace normal (even God's will) unless there were legitimate reasons for war,
Descriptions of warfare in classical antiquity do not focus around the debate of the natural/unnatural state of warfare as it existed. War in the ancient period was more of a seasonal occurrance, rather than a state of mind as it existed for the leadership. Territorial conquest came hand in hand with providing 'booty' for the army concerned, for this was frequently the only method of payment for service. Monetary contributions came from 'state' coffers, and were used to feed and train people in the fighting style of the day. In the Fuedal period, warfare was an appendage to the desire of the state leader to expand his personal power (and therefore his reputation as a leader of men). An army would form, frequently after the harvest period, and continue on 'campaign' as a matter of course; territorial exchange or the shifting of accepted borders had more to do with control of taxation or trade, and could even be perpetrated as a simple method of keeping agricultural workers 'busy' until the change of seasons, a defeat, or a retreat. Even a succesful military group would often break up simply to return to cultivated fields for replanting and harvest before the cycle would begin again. To call peace an "unnatural state" is to misconstrue the entire concept; peace/war were one concept, and campaigning conducted as long as success and favouable weather continued. Fighting was frequently seen as something that only males participated in. Greek history is full of examples of war conducted in this fashion. If we look at the conduct of Armies in the Peloponyisian period, it becomes obvious that the ebb and flow of conflict matched the seasonal variation of the climate in the terrain fought over. Women were often seen as fair 'booty', and carted off wholesale as carnal prizes, or sold into slavery to finance the next campaigning season. Alexander of Macedon took a wife as war booty (the Sogdian ROXANNA), specifically for the purpose of fathering a dynasty. His consort and lover, HEPHAESTION was, in actuality, his heir apparent until his untimely death advanced the need for Alexander to procreate.(Christofurry (talk) 17:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC))
Dunno about this sentence - what religions (especially at the time referred) consider(ed) legitimate reasons for war don't seem to reverse the idea of natural war much if at all. 141.151.181.162 23:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Grammar/Style
The line
"Some Zionist leaders considered Palestine as terra nullius during the period of Jewish immigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but there was no legal void as some Ottoman laws are still invoked even before Israeli courts in this century."
doesn't look like it was written by a native speaker. Normally, "this century" applies exclusively to the current century (in this case the 21st). However, I have taught ESL for quite some time, and seen a number of other languages where the tendency to say "this" refers to something explicitly stated earlier in the sentence ("in the late 19th and early 20th centuries").
What do you think? Deserving of clarification? samwaltz 18:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Copied out of 19th century text book?
The style of the opening section feels archaic, has it been copied out of an old book? "In antiquity peace was considered an exceptional condition between states, only established by peace treaty, war being their natural rapport".
- "In antiquity" is a strange expression - needs further definition.
- "war being their natural rapport" - from some 19th century philosopher? is this legal language? The concept of war as being a 'natural state' is a philosophical position (let alone discussions of the concept of 'natural') - can we have references to the people who put forward this position?
--mgaved 11:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Moon
A 1969 Time article states that the U.S. and USSR both have declared luna to be terra nullius, explicitly using that phrase. Someone who's not currently at work should look into this, don't you think? --Kizor 08:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fuzzy arguments
Look at this:
- Although Australia was clearly not unoccupied, scattered and nomadic Aboriginal groups would have been widely perceived, through European eyes of the time, as evidence of a barbarous country and thus no legal impediment to settlement.
Britain had no problems with asserting imperial dominion over India, Hong Kong etc (and this included some small settlement). The advantage in Australia, South Africa, and North America was that sparse population made large scale settlement easier. It's a practical not an ideological issue!--Jack Upland (talk) 12:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
