Talk:Teresa Nielsen Hayden

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[edit] Disemvowelling

"Nielsen Hayden is the inventor of disemvowelling."

I doubt this and it definitely needs a citation. There is no mention of her "inventing" it on the disemvowelling site and I doubt that this was something that started with one person. I will see what I can find out but that is my explanation for removing it. Crito2161 01:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm surprised to see that the disemvoweling claim was in the article to be removed, having been deleted some time ago. The strongest claim that seems to be supportable with accepted sourcing is the one on the Disemvoweling article. (Briefly: the term predates the moderation technique, and the first use claim, in the sense of "as a moderation technique," seems impossible to prove, even though it's probably true.) Please see that article and its talk page for details, and do not reinsert the stronger claim that was just removed from here...again. Thanks! Karen | Talk | contribs 01:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Huh. My mistake. I guess I just assumed it had previously been removed. Karen | Talk | contribs 01:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I highly, highly suspicious of the claim she invented disemvoweling and am curious as to when she supposedly did this. The practice (if not the term) certainly pre-dates the Internet and undoubtedly was being used on the 'net as early as the ARPANET days. I certainly used it on early (mid-1980's) Bulletin board systems such as Stuart][, The Temple of Doom, and Pyrzqxgl. Unless better sources are found, I suggest it be removed. The Cory Doctorow source seems a bit circular since Hayden works for his Boing Boing blog (I don't mean to impune Doctorow, but suspect he got his info from Hayden rather than a third-pary) Simenzo 13:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Re-reading the current article I see it now states that Hayden is the first Internet-editor to practice disemvoweling (rather than the inventor of the practice). I'm still a bit dubious of the claim in absence of better sources--also I suspect it hangs on a narrow definition of what a Internet-editor is. Simenzo 14:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
It says first recorded; and of course, this depends on the definition of Internet editor. The creation of the term by Arthur (who deserves his own article) on her blog helped solidify the association of the practice with her. --Orange Mike 14:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
So the emphasis on 'recorded' is a concession that in all likelihood she isn't the first? Yes, yes, of course it depends on the definition of Internet-editor... the point is how narrow of a definition? Would someone who moderates a discussion forum count as an Internet Editor? At a certain point the factoid is so precariously balanced on particulars that it becomes a trivial/misleading 'first'. Finally, the fact that her blog solidifies the claim isn't really a third-party, source... if the point is that disemvoweling is associated with Hayden, fine... let's state that and leave out the "first" aspect. This reminds me a bit of Compton's patent on 'multimedia'--something that was both obvious & in general use. I think the proponents of Hayden (and, incidentally, I'm not an opponent of hers) are really doing her a disservice by stretching the readers' credulity by including this in her bio. Simenzo 14:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Or perhaps the point is that Hayden disemvowels entire posts, instead of individual words (reading between the lines, that does seem to be what the article implies)... if that is the case, I'll back off my objections (but suggest that article is extended to include the extent of disemvowling. Simenzo 14:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Nielsen Hayden (not Hayden) disemvowels entire articles.Shsilver 15:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In that case I suggest the article be edited (in fact I'll go do it now) to specify that... I think that's key to her "first recorded." 64.131.177.119 15:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Narcolepsy

  • In January, 2006, Nielsen Hayden fell victim to the FDA's removal from the market of a prescription drug she regularly used for narcolepsy, without notice to her and other users. This situation, first brought to light on her weblog,[1] was soon widely reported and commented on elsewhere.[2][3][4]

There are two elements here. One is the loss of the subject's medication. We don't normally get into this level of detail about biographical subjects. Is the matter worth mentioning in a short article? Is her narcolepsy important? Should we say more about that? The second half simply says that the subject blogged on a topic and some fellow bloggers commented on her piece. That is insignificant, unencyclopedic, and depends on blogs as secondary sources.

  • Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources.[5]

I propose we rewrite the material:

  • Nielsen Hayden has narcolepsy and had been taking Cylert for the condition. However the Food and Drug Administration withdrew the drug from the marketplace in January 2006 with insufficient warning, leaving her with no effective replacement.[6]

A little research shows that the issues with this drug, and advocacy for patients who used to take it, predated January 2006.[7]. It would be inaccurate to assert that the subject was the first to bring this "to light". -Will Beback 11:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Works for me, Will. Thanks! Karen | Talk | contribs 15:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


SwatJester has raised again (August 2007) the question of whether this topic belongs in the encyclopedia article. As the question has been discussed previously (see above), it seems that the most conservative approach would be to edit the language, rather than delete material that has already been discussed and vetted at least once before. It appears that Nielsen Hayden has served as an advocate or "poster child" for this disease -- she is, for example, the first person listed in [List of People With Narcolepsy]. The entry appears to be factually correct, does no harm, and might perhaps do some good. MarkBernstein 02:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

TNH has written about her narcolepsy both on her blog and in published essays. It's obviously verifiable that she has narcolepsy; whether this is significant enough to be included in a Wikipedia article, I don't know. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disemvowelling source

In this article in Information Week [8], Cory Doctorow credits Nielsen Hayden with inventing disemvowelling. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Making Light is not an attack site

I'm not sure what an "attack site" is, but Making Light isn't it. It's a group-edited blog, moderated and founded by Teresa Nielsen Hayden, who remains one of the strongest voices on that page. The site is widely read in Nielsen Hayden's field -- science fiction -- and is often referred to in trade publications such as the multi-Hugo-winning Ansible. It is appropriate for a noteworthy blog that Nielsen Hayden founded and posts to regularly to be included in her Wikipedia biography. Doctorow 23:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I've replied on your user talk page. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
If one exaimes Mr. Bebeck's contributions, it is apparent that for reasons of his own -- because I updated my own bibliography to include my 2007 books -- he felt is necessary to vandalize the entries of my husband's colleges at Tor Books, a New York science fiction publisher. I suggest that Mr. Bebeck demonstrate his Wikipedian Good Will by deleting all these pages from his watch list.
I'm sure that upon mature consideration Mr Bebeck -- who haspreviously threatened to gut the entries of the whole field of editors of science fiction -- will walk away from this subject. Pleasantville 01:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
This isn't about anything besides the contents of Nielsenhayden.com
However, since you mention it, we have a problem on Wikipedia with science fiction editors who ignore our guidelines on autobiography. This article has that problem too. If editors would stop creating and editing their autobiographies then it wouldn't be so necessary for others to patrol them. I have no particular interest in this field and I've only gotten involved because of the need for policy enforcement. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 01:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Huh? The only edits that are apparently by TNH on this page are [9] and [10]. The former is a well-sourced edit which isn't in the slightest contentious and the latter, while unsourced, only makes the same claim along with passing the credit for the popularity of her blog onto her visitors rather than herself which hardly seems contentious to me. She didn't create this page, and WP:AUTO doesn't require her to refrain from editing. JulesH 08:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I see no evidence that Making Light is an attack site. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

People should be able to contribute to their own articles however they like. It's about them, anyway. If Wikipedians such as Will Beback write lies about them, they should be able to fix it.--ElminsterAumar 06:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
This is now being discussed at AN/I ·:·Will Beback ·:· 01:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the Arbitration Committee, A website that engages in the practice of publishing private information concerning the identities of Wikipedia participants will be regarded as an attack site whose pages should not be linked to from Wikipedia pages under any circumstances. I have looked at the site, and am completely satisfied that it engages in that practice. Therefore, we should not link to it. I do not intend to give details in the sense of "Go to the main page, and click on the link at the second from the top at the left-hand side" etc. Once there's question of privacy violations, we should err on the side of protecting our contributors. Of course, if the webmasters remove the privacy-violating information, which it is perfectly in their power to do, there will be no reason not to link to it. Musical Linguist 11:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Where, then, is the hue and outcry to remove all references to Google from Wikipedia, as it, too, "engages in the practice of publishing private information concerning the identities of Wikipedia participants." Because the complainant is "outed" on the first page of a search on their handle + wikipedia on Google. Perhaps they need to take better care of their own pseudonymity, if they can be found out so simply. --Izzylobo 02:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, so it's a breach of Wikipedia's policies on contributor privacy. Calling such a site an "attack site", without even a pointer to a definition or supporting policy, looks a lot like abuse. (I gave the relevant blog a skim--there's a claim that the anonymity of Wikipedia is being abused, and so is damaging Wikipedia.) There isn't an easy answer, but I suggest that Mr. Beback, whatever his real life identity, needs to back off. Like it or not, I think he's becoming part of the problem. 88.109.57.55 12:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The ArbCom ruling specifically uses the phrase "in the practice of..". I see no evidence here or on AN/I that Making Light is in the practice of compromising on-WP privacy. As has been mentioned ad nauseam, the discussion in one open thread of the first-page google results for one editor's name does not support the classification of the site as an attack site, as it is not regular behaviour. Hornplease 13:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

See my essay on the whole "BADSITES" controversy. *Dan T.* 21:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Hornplease's post above: I see no evidence that Making Light is in the practice of violating the privacy of Wikipedia editors. I see a comment about an ED thread, and a link to that ED thread; if there are any links from Wikipedia to those posts on Making Light, then those links should be removed. But since the vast, overwhelming majority of Making Light has nothing to do with Wikipedia, much less investigating Wikipedia editors' backgrounds, and since Making Light is being used to provide source material for Wikipedia articles, there's no justification for removing all links to the site. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

If the subject's site doesn't make a practice of attacking Wikipedia editors, or of revealing their personal information, then I'm sure the subject will remove the info as we've requested. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 07:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Will, she already has. See [11] and following comments. Explanation of her reasons for doing this is here. JulesH 08:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad to see TNH's act of moderation and withdraw my objections to linking to her website. I acknowledge over-reacting initially and appreciate everyone's patience in this matter. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 09:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean you'll replace all the links you deleted?Shsilver 13:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the rest of us have already done that, although I can't be certain I didn't miss any. And I didn't do most of the ones on talk pages, except for where they were removed from my comments. JulesH 16:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the Arbitration Committee - and they have clarified this once already - the AC have not given licence for blanket removal of links to any site just because someone feels like deeming an 'attack site'. Any such rule that could possibly be applied to nielsenhayden.com is self-evidently too stupid for words and demonstrably dangerous to have around on Wikipedia.

By the way, Will Beback and Teresa Nielsen Hayden have already resolved this actual incident between themselves. It has no relevance to this talk page and should probably go somewhere else - David Gerard 16:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The origins of the dispute stem partly from Will Beback's unwillingness to accept TNH's expertise on the career of Roger Elwood and on the subject of scam literary agents.
Despite WB's notability as a Wikipedia admin, because he insists on concealing his real name and real-world connections, those of us who are out here under our real names and real CVs are reluctant to accept his authority since we have no way of validating it or sourcing the roots of his authority. This reluctance caused him and other admins of his stripe to regard us as suspicious characters.
Teresa and I, both of whom were trained by Joanna Russ, Samuel R. Delany, and David Hartwell to have confidence in our authority, did not take well to being treated as suspicious characters.
In private correspondence, I have tried to explain to WB the social rules of our subculture and what puts it at odds with the WIkipedia subculture, I hope with some success. (Because we know each other and marry each other's daughters in SF, we have different standards of conflict of interest, for example. There are no truly disinterested parties in the science fiction field.) This may allow future confrontations of this nature to be avoided. --Pleasantville 21:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd be happy to continue discusing this matter in appropriate forums. But this page exists just to discuss our article on the subject. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Only a single source, and that source is the subjects blog!?

If no third-party sources are forthcoming, this article should be stubbed. See WP:SELFPUB. --Ronz 03:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

According to that policy, Making Light is a reliable source on Teresa Nielsen Hayden. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability says:
Material from self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
  • it is relevant to their notability;
  • it is not contentious;
  • it is not unduly self-serving;
  • it does not involve claims about third parties;
  • it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
  • there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it;
  • the article is not based primarily on such sources.
It appears that this article is based primarily on the subject's own blog. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Was going to add additional sources, but the article is currently locked.Shsilver 15:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked the admin who protected the page to unprotect, so I think you'll be able to edit it soon. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
That assertion has no basis in fact. Trivial example: TNH and Patrick edited Izzard, as the Hugo lists verify. They are well-known figures in the field, with plenty of other sources about them totally unrelated to their blog. I don't understand why you assume bad faith on the part of every other science fiction fan or pro who has edited these articles. --Orange Mike 15:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The only cited source is TNH's blog, but there are other sources that can be used for the article--including Cory Doctorow's article, mentioned above on the talk page, which gives her credit for inventing disemvowelling. Of course, as OrangeMike just pointed out, some of the content in the article is based on independent sources--e.g., the list of Hugo award nominations is not coming from the blog, nor is the list of books edited by TNH (these are the sorts of things that don't really need a citation, either). --Akhilleus (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of civility and amity, it might not be a bad idea to find sources for some of these things other than Visible Light so that other editors do not have similar concerns about verifiability. ISTR that TNH and others have written about some of these matters in other venues in the past. --Orange Mike 17:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I've added some sources from the TAFF pages, Viable Paradise, and the Hugo Awards page. Will look in some print sources later when I get a chance.Shsilver 17:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

How about just listing possible sources here? --Ronz 20:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure...Possible sources include Locus, The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, various science fiction convention program books, [Science Fiction] Chronicle, various fanzines, etc. Shsilver 20:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of sources, Sourcewatch isn't a reliable source for a biography.[12] See WP:BLP. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Sourcewatch appears, here, to be cited as an example of a place that published or commented upon the subject's writing on a specific topic. Whether or not Sourcewatch is reliable as a source for biographical data, it is doubtless reliable in regard to its own contents. Similarly, though you might not rely on The National Enquirer as an authority for a subject's birth date, the fact that a subject wrote stories for The National Enquirer can reliably be sourced to that publication. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkBernstein (talk • contribs) 12:26, August 29, 2007 (UTC)