User talk:Tennis expert/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Format

Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered vandalism, and if you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you.

Notchopin 23:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove messages from your talk page. Talk pages exist as a record of communication, and in any case, comments are available through the page history. You're welcome to archive your talk page, but be sure to provide a link to any deleted comments. Thanks. Redd Dragon speak 12:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Geez, there is no "vandalism" on my part, as any reasonable person would see from looking at the history of the information I have tried to add to and correct in various articles. Having a dispute with a contributor about nomenclature or content does not mean that one or the other is "vandalizing" anything. If anyone is "vandalizing" something, look at the person who keeps reverting the valuable updates and corrections I've made to the Stefan Edberg article, especially concerning his career in Masters series events.

The dispute is whether "wins" and "runners up" should be used instead of "champion" and "finalist." I've been playing and following tennis for 40 years. Contrary to what some of the contributors would say who are complaining about me, it is more common in the media to say that Stefan Edberg was the champion of Wimbledon 3 times and a finalist several others times instead of saying that he was a "wins" of Wimbledon 3 times and a "runners up" several other times.

Furthermore, I am the person who researched and provided almost all the statistical data in the Billie Jean King and Margaret Court articles, which took almost 100 hours of my time. I'm hardly interested in "vandalizing" any article, especially about tennis. Tennis_expert 21:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You may see your edits as contributive, but I think your "valuable updates" are edits that don't add anything new to the articles - you merely replace the commonly accepted terminology.
Furthermore, you've been changing formats that have been used for all the tennis bios without trying to get a consensus on the talk pages first. The yellow background for quarter-finals up to finals, for instance, is used in all tennis related articles, yet you keep changing the templates without discussing this with other users.
Pushing your edits through (using several IP addresses, none of which have edits that contain "the history of information" you mentioned) even though they go against the commonly accepted terminology and use of templates is a form of vandalism. Please stop. Igorrr 21:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Where is this so-called "consensus" about the yellow background documented? Where can I find a list of the "consensus" items and "commonly accepted terminology"? And who exactly makes up the "consensus"? You and ? Finally, you grossly exaggerate when you say that "all" tennis related articles use the same template. They don't.

So, do you think that completing and correcting Stefan Edberg's heretofore inaccurate and incomplete career history in Masters Series events "doesn't add anything new" or is "vandalism"? Do you also think that adding Billie Jean King's and Margaret Court's record in all four Grand Slam events "doesn't add anything new" or is "vandalism"? Do you really think that the template I've used in many articles for career Grand Slam singles performance timelines is inferior to the one used in just a few articles before I started using my template? If you answer "yes" to any of these questions, then in my opinion you have no credibility whatsoever. "Please stop." Tennis_expert 22:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying.
All the color coding in the templates used for Grand Slam tournaments are the same on the different articles I have read. Therefore, I (genius) derive that editors of tennis articles silently agree on using the same format which is in accordance with the WP: Manual of Style. Same with "wins" and "runner-ups," which you don't respect either.
I dubbed you a vandal because you kept changing these formats even tough I and another user (Zaxem) kept reverting these edits, implying we don't agree with these changes. Instead of taking your case to the talk pages to discuss this with us, you continued editing (under different IP addresses) without attempting any discourse with other editors, so it certainly looked like you were vandalizing from my point of view, but if you state you were not then I will assume good faith from now on.
Now that I've got your attention (hi), the DNP abbreviation you insist on using is stretching out certain pages (Navratilova's I remember), therefore I think it's better to keep the ordinary dash instead. Thank you. Igorrr 22:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear expert, ignoring all the comments you have received on changing the articles' format and pushing your versions, as you are for instances in Gabriela Sabatini is considered vandalism. Please, consider the posibility that you might not be always right, and that changing a consolidated standard should be consensuated, not forced. I hope you can understand and learn to work side by side with other editors. Failure to do so might result in your account getting temporarly blocked. Mariano(t/c) 06:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that you refresh your memory about the official meaning of "vandalism" in Wikipedia. For your convenience, "Vandalism is any addition, deletion, or change to content, made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia. The most common type of vandalism is the replacement of existing text with obscenities, page blanking, or the insertion of bad jokes or other nonsense. ... Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Wikipedia." In fact, your message could be considered "talk page vandalism." Therefore, I am considering whether to remove it. Wikipedia says in its entry about "Talk Page Vandalism": "Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long Talk page to a separate file and then remove the text from the main Talk page. The above does not apply to the user's own Talk page, where users generally are permitted to remove and archive comments at their discretion." Consider yourself warned. Tennis_expert 15:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Wins" & "Runner-ups" vs. "Champion" & "Finalist"

Dear Tennis expert,

I'm glad you've become a regsitered user on Wikipedia. When you were previously editing as an unregistered user, conversations of the type we can have now were not possible because your IP address kept changing.

Let me begin by stating clearly that I personally do not consider you a vandal. I may disgaree with some of the changes you've made, but I do believe that you've always been attempting to be constructive. What we have here is simply a difference of opinion - which we can now talk through and work out (hopefully amicably) since you have an account.

Let me outline why I believe that the existing format of using "Wins" and "Runner-ups" at the top of retired players lists of Grand Slam finals should be kept in place. In all cases where these headings appear on players' pages, they are in fact sub-headings of a main title "Grand Slam singles finals". Therefore, since we're looking at sub-headings of this main heading, we're not saying that Stefan Edberg (or anyone else) was as a "wins" or a "runner-ups" (which of course would not make sense), but that these particicular Grand Slam finals resulted in a "win" or "runner-up" finish for the subject of the page. That makes perfect sense and avoids the problematic term "finalist", which doesn't necessarily mean the subject lost and thus may confuse some people who are not very familar with the subject matter. To my mind, therefore, it makes sense to keep these sub-headings as is (and several others who've also reverted your attempts to change this clearly agree with me).

If you think you can make a strong case as to why I'm wrong about this, I'm more than happy to discuss it with you, either here or on my talk page. But let's talk it through first, rather than continually reverting edits regarding this which waste the time and energy of you, me and others who've got involved in this.

With regards to your changes to the Grand Slam/Master Series performance timeline charts, I don't have a strong preference on this and haven't personally reverted any of you editing of these. However I do think Igorrr has made a reasonable point about some of them becoming too long to into fit on the screen. (This could fixed by splitting some of them into two.)

In the meantime, I'm glad to have another person around who's committed to improving the tennis articles on Wikipedia. Let's just make sure we talk through differences of opinion rather than getting into unnecessary edit wars.

Regards, Zaxem 01:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This Controversy Is Completely Ridiculous

This whole thing is completely ridiculous, for the following reasons. (1) There's a certain implication in the posts by Igorrr and Zaxem that editors who don't register are somehow less important or credible than those who register. If Wikipedia considered that to be true, then it would have restricted contributions to only those who have registered. (2) Having different IP addresses is not sinister, as Igorrr has implied on more than one occasion. People who have dial-up accounts will have a different IP address each time they log on. And people who edit using different ISPs will have different IP addresses. If Wikipedia wanted each editor to have the same IP address everytime they edited, then it would have imposed a restriction to achieve this objective. (3) Zaxem and Igorrr do not necessarily make a consensus. There are a lot more editors of tennis article than those two guys (or girls). (4) I doubt there are many people who have contributed more than yours truly to tennis articles all over Wikipedia since late 2005. Therefore, my opinion about how these articles should be formatted is at least as important as the opinions of the people who mindlessly and carelessly revert those articles and, due to their mindlessness and carelessness, trash important contributions. Witness what has happened repeatedly concerning the reversions of the Stefan Edberg article, which has had the stupid side effect of eliminating the updates and corrections I've submitted concerning his Masters Series results.

If you want to use something other than "DNP" (did not participate) to indicate that a person did not play in a tournament, then I am open to suggestions. I object, however, to using a dash because of its inherent lack of specificity, i.e., its vagueness.

I do not see anything wrong with "champion." That is certainly a better choice than "wins." A person has to "win" seven matches to be the champion of a Grand Slam singles tournament. A person is a "champion" only if the person prevails in the final match.

As for "finalist," I would not object to "losing finalist." But "runners-up" is a lame and awkward term.

I have been preparing career Grand Slam singles results for other players, like the contributions I submitted for Billie Jean King and Margaret Court. But if these controversies continue, e.g., publicly labeling me a "vandal" whenever I do not agree with someone else's edit, I will instead submit them to other, more tennis-related, websites. Tennis_expert 02:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Response to your comments

Dear Tennis expert,

I get the impression from the last set of comments you've written here that you think I'm trying to antagonize you. Let me assure you that that's not the case. I cannot speak for any other Wikipedia editor, only myself. But with that noted, let me address what you've said:

  • I in no way beleive that unregistered users are less important or credible than registered users. The difficulty that I faced when you were editing as an unregistered user was that, becuase you were logging in from different IP addresses each time, it wasn't possible to leave messages for you to discuss things - because an unregistered user will only see messages left for them if they log on from the same IP address again. I thus tried to communicate my thoughts on our dispute to you through the edit summaries on the respective players' pages, but you still reverted my edits without offering any explanation. That's why I was pleased when you registered an account, because it actually gave us a proper forum to discuss this through your talk page. In all my communications with you, I've tried to be above-board and civil, and I don't intend for that to change.
  • I agree that Igorrr and I do not by ourselves make a consenus. But I think you'll find that more people than just the two of us have been reverting your edits of "Champion" and "Finalist" (including, but not limited to, Notchopin and Redd Dragon), whereas only you have been reverting these changes back. At the moment it seems you're in a minority of one among the people who particularly care about and pay close attention to these articles. That doesn't necessarily mean we're right and you're wrong. But in a colaborative project like Wikipedia, it does mean that the person in the minority has a duty to try and persuade those of us who are upholding what has become an established format that we should agree with you that it should be changed. Rightly or wrongly, the "Wins" and "Runner-ups" sub-headings under the main banner heading "Grand Slam finals" has become an established practice on the pages about tennis players. And very similar forms of formatting also extend to pages about players of other sports, for example several of the pages about squash players. If you think the established practice should be changed, discussion with others involved in editing these pages is a better way to tackle the issue than edit-warring.
  • I'm not totally unconvincible that this established practice should be changed. But further up on your talk page you'll see that I've explained, in as clearly reasoned a way as I can, why I think the existing practice is still workable and sensible. Your alternative proposal of "Losing finalist" might be a sensible alterantive. But in fairness if you want me and others to consider your suggestion fully, you need to explain, in clearly logical terms, why you consider this better than the existing practice so that we can properly understand and assess your thinking. At the moment what you've said is that you think that "Runner-ups" is a "lame and awkward term" - a statement which hardly allows anyone else to understand your thinking beyond the fact that you take a personal dislike to it. You also note that a player is a champion "only if the person prevails in the final match", but given that the term "Wins" is being used as a sub-heading under the banner heading "Grand Slam finals", I still don't yet understand why you consider "Champion" to be a superior alternative (other than becuase of personal taste). And I have to say that I think your changing of the main headings to "Grand Slam tournaments" from "Grand Slam finals" is inappropriate - these sections list the result of the final on the occassions when the players made the final, not every Grand Slam tournament they ever played in (a reader who's generally unfamilar with the context and subject matter may well find this labling quite confusing). If you want to convince me and others that we're wrong and that your preferences are indeed more clear and appropriate, please offer us a more carefully reasoned explanation. I think that's an entirely fair request in the circumstances.
  • In the spirit of goodwill, I'll personally avoid reverting any of your edits on this for at least another 24 hours to give you an opportunity to state your case clearly and let the rest of us fully understand your thinking (though I'm in no position to stop others from doing so).

Let me be clear - I have no desire to develop a hostile relationship with you. I, like you, have devoted a great deal of time to developing the tennis articles on Wikipedia over an extended period and I see you as someone I'd really like to be working together with rather than battling against. I do hope that some sort of consenus agreement involing everyone involved in this dispute can be reached so we can all move on productively and collaboratively.

Regards, Zaxem 10:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: This Controversy Is Completely Ridiculous

Hello. Thank you for taking out the time to respond. I understand you're only trying to contribute to this project, but as I've expressed before I don't agree with the changes you've been submitting lately. Please let me state my case.

If you haven't already would you please look at the Grand Slam overviews on the following articles for a moment (articles selected off the top of my head)

Sampras, Agassi, Hewitt Federer, Roddick, Graf, Hingis, Serena and Venus Williams, Davenport, Henin.

You will notice that -all- these articles use the same Grand Slam format: Yellow background for quarter finals up to finals and a dash for DNP, which was what I meant with the unwritten consensus in my previous comment. Not just the consensus of merely a couple editors, but most tennis editors seem to use a standard format to display Grand Slam results at Wikipedia. I apologize for not explaining this clearer the first time.

I would also appreciate it if you would explain how changing virtually all the backgrounds of the grand slam overviews to yellow is an improvement over the commonly accepted quarter-final up to final coding. These changes make both aesthetically and logically no sense to me.

I also disagree with your notion that a dash isn't clear enough to illustrate that the player did not attend the tournament that particular year. Would you please explain how a dash could be misinterpreted by it's vagueness as you call it, because the assumption that some aren't capable of understanding the intended meaning of a line in a tournament overview seems more than a little condescending to me.

Finally, some may consider this a [completely ridiculous controversy], but as I see it you have been changing a widely used format without initiating a discussion with other editors on the appropriated discussion pages first. Pushing your points of view through without seeking the opinions of other editors is, contrary to what you may intend, disrespectful to other users who, like you, are trying to contribute to the tennis pages.

Thank you. Igorrr 16:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Responses to responses

Zaxem:

Word choice is always subjective. Whenever I choose to use one term over another term that has the same meaning, I am making a subjective choice. In my subjective opinion, "runners-up" is lame and awkward compared to the alternatives of "finalist" or "losing finalist." You and a few others apparently have a different opinion. Wikipedia allows you to edit articles to reflect your personal choice, just as I am allowed to edit articles to reflect my personal choice. If you do not want to compromise about "runners-up," then I guess we are at an impasse. You'll see that I have offered a compromise already. You have not. The ball is now in your court, so to speak.

Igorrr:

Silence does not necessarily imply agreement. For example, someone does not "vote" that they would like an article to continue having grammatical errors just because the person does not take the time to correct them. And how many of the tennis editors are actually using the background-is-yellow-only-from-quarterfinals-on template? Just because a few editors have plastered that template all over the place does not mean that there is "consensus" on using it. And even if there were consensus at one point (however vaguely and unilaterally you have defined it), I believe that consensus needs to be revised and improved.

A dash can mean any number of things, such as the tournament was not held, the player did not participate, or we do not yet have any data about the player's participation. That's why a dash is inherently ambiguous and why "DNP" is not. As for whether "DNP" is condescending to the average reader's intelligence because the average reader would know that a dash means non-participation, I believe your comment about that is absurd.

Yellow emphasizes participation. White emphasizes no participation. If you want to use a fourth color for quarterfinals through finals, I am open to discussing it. For example, a white background could be used for no participation, a yellow background for participation but not making it to the quarterfinals, a green background for making it to the quarterfinals but not being the champion, and a red background for being the champion. I am not wedded to particular colors. But I do think that the background should reflect a difference between not participating at all and participating but not reaching at least the quarterfinals. Top level tennis is about results, and you cannot get results without participating. Therefore, it is important to emphasize at a glance whether a player participated.

I appreciate your deletion of the public notice about my alleged "vandalism." I still think you overreacted and an apology is due for what I view as borderline libel and an invasion of privacy. The notice is still in the history file for anyone motivated enough to find it. Tennis_expert 18:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Responses to responses

Seeing how the grand slam templates have been used for a long period of time without being ambiguous to people (no one has complained on the discussion pages anyway, and editors keep using them indicating the format is understandable), there is no substantial reason to change the color coding in my opinion, which I believe is in accordance with WP: Manual of Style.

But if you are of the opinion that a change will be for the betterment then my suggestion would be to use a different color for the years when the player DNP (have no preference for a color, but not green, white or yellow obviously) and I'd rather leave the rest of the color coding as it is, the way it's been applied by several editors.

About the several interpretations of a dash. As you probably know Grand Slams haven't been canceled since WWII, it might therefore be unnecessary to differentiate between the years the player DNP and years the tournament was annulled altogether for Open Era players in my opinion.

Speaking of absurd, I do not believe I had "vaguely and unilaterally" defined the consensus regarding the use of grand slam templates. I showed how the articles of some of the most successful tennis players of the last years have the same structural format, suggesting there is some notable agreement in the use of grand slam overviews between the editors.

Dubbing the reporting of an editor for unilaterally changing templates that are commonly used throughout the tennis pages (which is suspicious behavior at best) as a libelous action is once again absurd. You win the absurd claim 2-1. Congrats. But even though you made no effort to seek discussion and continued to edit when others clearly objected to the changes, I do admit I should have tried to contact you even when the change of IP addresses made this virtually impossible. I apologize for reporting you as a vandal; I should have been more subtle. Hugs?

At least we can agree tennis is a great sport (not as great as soccer though!) Igorrr 21:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

More responses to responses

Igorrr:

It must have slipped your mind that the Australian Open (AO) was not held in 1986. It moved from the end of the Grand Slam calendar in 1985 to the beginning in 1987. Hence, my addition of "NH" (not held) to the performance timelines. Should the timelines use a dash for the nonexistent 1986 edition of that tournament? If so, how do we keep a reader from being puzzled when the Stefan Edberg article says that he participated in 54 consecutive Grand Slam tournaments, yet there is a "dash" in his performance timeline for 1986, which is in the middle of the streak? Should we just assume a casual reader will know that the 1986 AO didn't happen? We, of course, don't want to be condescending....

You and I will have to just disagree about the meaning of "vandalism" or "suspicious behavior." I don't hug non-repentant strangers. And soccer is a sleep-inducing joke, loved only by those who can't understand American football. Tennis_expert 22:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Moving Forward

Dear Tennis expert,

"Grand Slam singles finals", "Wins" & "Runner-ups" vs. "Grand Slam singles touranments", "Champion" & "Losing finalist"

I said I would wait for over 24 hours before changing any of your edits in order to give you a chance to provide a clear, logical argument for why your preferences on the headings for Grand Slam finals sections were better than the existing practices – and I that's what I've done. However in that period, the only justification you've provided is still one of purely personal preference. I'm therefore about to change the affected pages back to the original format in this regard. I hope you will not view this as a hostile act. Let me explain as carefully as I can why I'm taking this action right now and what I think is the best way forward on this (because there may well be a better format out there, we just haven't found it yet):

  • You are correct in saying that Wikipedia allows people to edit articles to reflect their personal preferences. But where disputes arise over such preferences, Wikipedia expects users to discuss the issues with each other, and work out which format that makes most sense for the general reader. In such disputes, the agreed on format should be the one which can be best explained in terms of making logical sense to someone who reads the article. And the agreed format should be one which can be explain by factors that go beyond personal taste. It should be one which everyone involved in editing the article can understand the rationale for from a clearly logical point of view, and could thus potentially explain clearly to someone else who gets involved in editing the article in the future (and you cannot do that with a rationale based purely on personal taste).
  • The established format (regardless of anyone's personal feelings about it) makes clear logical sense to anyone who reads it, even someone not very familiar with the subject matter. The banner heading is "Grand Slam finals" (making it very clear that the matches listed below are the finals of Grand Slams, and not any other round); and the sub-headings "Wins" and "Runner-ups" make grammatical sense in relation to the banner heading (where the main subject is the match not the player), and show what the outcome of the match was for the overall subject of the article.
  • I do appreciate your attempt at compromise, but it still doesn't make things absolutely clear to the reader who's unfamiliar with the subject matter. The heading "Grand Slam singles tournaments" doesn't make it clear that the section only refers to events where they made the final and not every Grand Slam they competed in, and so may confuse the uninitiated reader.
  • That said, I agree with you that the term "Runner-ups" is slightly awkward. I have been wracking my brains to come up with a better term that would still be widely understood makes perfect grammatical sense in relation to the banner heading. But unfortunately I haven't come up with one yet. I therefore think the best way forward right now is to stick with what's become the settled format rather than change it a disputed and not wholey satisfactory alternative (and you have to accept that you're in a minority of one in thinking that the existing format is so objectionable that it must be changed immediately). Let's keep it in place for now, but continue to think about and discuss alternatives. If and when we can come up with a improved format that makes complete logical and grammatical sense to anyone who reads it, I'll be happy to help you change the pages to that format and explain the rationale to anyone who questions it. Fair?

Grand Slam performance timeline boxes

On this issue, I think you've made some arguments on this talk page which very clearly and logically support your point of view in a way that goes beyond personal taste. You've explained your case well.

The colour coding you've added some of the most recent pages you've edited makes things very clear and, since you've outlined a good case for doing this, I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute your actions in editing these boxes now (provided that you're willing to follow through in applying the format more widely).

Let me offer a few more suggestions here:

  • The problem of some of these boxes getting too long to fit into most screen set-ups remains (see for example Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert and Billie Jean King). Possible ways to fix this could be reducing the font size a bit, and splitting some of the longest ones into two.
  • The abbreviations used make sense to people who follow tennis closely, but may not make sense to a reader less familiar with the sport. I’d suggest adding a legend at the bottom of each chart.
  • Perhaps there should also be another colour for being the runner-up, because this is a notably more significant achievement in the tennis world than being a semi-finalist or quart-finalist.

When the format is settled, if you like help in applying it to other players' pages let me know. I'm willing to pitch in and help.

Regards, Zaxem 03:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I second Zaxem on that. Mariano(t/c) 08:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Re:More responses to responses

Tennis expert:

A sarcastic ellipsis? Ouch. That hurts.

Anyway, going through some of your edits, I'm glad we came to an agreement to keep the color code for the first four rounds and the quarter-final and up separated. Not sure why you initially considered a single color an improvement, but I support most of the new edits and won't revert them. I still, however, prefer the dash over the DNP in the overviews, but the NH addition is another change I back.

The runner-up and win dispute. I consider "runner-up" to be an unambiguous and widely used term in the sports lexicon, but if "losing finalist" is more distinct in your mind then go ahead and edit as far as I'm concerned. As long as you won't revert factually correct edits like some here have done, I have no objections to these changes as they currently stand. Igorrr 12:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Glad we're coming to agreement on one of the issues

If someone will help with making a list of the articles that need the updated format for the performance timelines, I'm more than willing to do them myself because I was the instigator. My objective isn't to create work for other people. I'm probably not aware of some (or many) of those articles. And as I said before, I'm not wedded to particular colors. What color would you prefer for a losing finalist (or runner-up)? Is there a list of colors that can be used in a Wikipedia article? Is there a list of color codes, like the one currently being used for green?

How can a font size be made smaller? I see the point about a few of the performance timeline tables being too wide. But I'd much rather reduce the font size than split the tables.

I will be adding a legend to all the charts. I don't think that "W" needs to be explained. "DNP" and "NH" definitely need explanation. "F," "SF," "QF," "4R," etc. seem obvious to me, but if the consensus is that they should be included in the legend, that's OK with me. --Tennis expert 15:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

See the Web colors page for a list of the colors available and their codes.
To change the font size for the whole chart, change the line at the top of the table which says:
{| class="wikitable"
to:
{| border="2" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; font-size: 80%; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;"
This will give you the same table format as Wikitable, except with a font size of 80% of the existing size. You can vary that percentage by changing the percentage value in this instruction line.
Useful pages: Wikipedia:How to edit a page, Help:Table
Regards, Zaxem 00:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone else's point of view on the Winner-Runner Up baloney

I've just looked at my 1981 edition of the "Official Encyclopedia of Tennis" published by the United States Tennis Association. On page 238, for instance, they have four columns for the USTA CHAMPIONS -- MEN'S SINGLES. Column #1 = Year. Column #2 = Winner. Column #3 = Runner-up. Column #4 = Score. The format in the "Bud Collins Total Tennis The Ultimate Tennis Encyclopedia" is slightly different, since it gives more info about each major tournament but the two crucial columns are called Winner and Defeated. Which leads me to cast my vote AGAINST the "Finalist" notation. In the context of tennis it means nothing: it can be either the winner or the loser, since it refers to EACH of the two players in the final. So, for whatever it's worth, I'm 100% behind Zaxem in this dispute, which has obviously consumed far too many man-hours of effort, unless all of you have superb bots to do your reverts and re-reverts. PLEASE -- just leave it at "Winner" and "Runner-up"! Hayford Peirce 05:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

In several other sports at Wikipedia, runner-up is also the common choice. See for instance FIFA World Cup. Mariano(t/c) 07:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
During the trophy presentation at the conclusion of the doubles competition in Cincinnati, the on court announcer presented the "finalist" trophy (not the "runner up" trophy) to the Bryan twins. And a recent news release from the U.S. Open reads as follows (in part): "The USTA has announced the creation of the US Open Champions Invitational for the 2006 US Open. The new event restructures and upgrades the existing programming currently provided at the US Open and will only feature players who were Grand Slam champions or finalists." Note that the news release does not use the term "runner up."Tennis expert 15:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Again, those are US centered... Mariano(t/c) 16:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
If you go to the official Wimbledon site and look at their list of Gentleman's Singles Champions this is what the names at the top of the columns look like:
Year Champion Seed Runner-up Seed Score Mins
Please note the use of the word Runner-up Hayford Peirce 17:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
If you go the official USTA site and look at *their* list, here is what you get:
Year Champion Right/Left Handed Runner-up Score
Once again, please note the use of the word "runner-up". Geez, what more do you want? A list of every tournament in the English-speaking world? Hayford Peirce 17:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Another example: The International Tennis Hall of Fame (ITHF), which by the way is officially recognized by the International Tennis Federation, calls people "finalists" whenever they lost championship matches at Grand Slam events. But I guess the ITHF doesn't have any credibility because it is "US centered." Tennis expert 17:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Performance timelines on tennis pages

I will agree to a change in the performance boxes, if it only involves slight (color) modification to the current layout of the performance timeline, which to me looks fine. I for one despise the dark gray that is currently being used, as it makes the box rather hard to read. Perhaps us tennis editors can agree on a set of colors that are pleasing to the eye, yet spice up the performance timeline. Perhaps more pastel colors, like light blues, as opposed to the "hotter" shades of charcoal, reds, and oranges that you are currently using. Please do not mistake my revising your boxes as an attack on your work tennis expert; on the contrary, I'm delighted that someone of your dedication is working on the tennis player pages. Perhaps the Agassi editors (Scineram and co), you, and all other interested wikipedians can agree on a colorway and a standard. Here's hoping a common ground can be reached. --Flute138 02:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tennis expert,

I don't want to get too involved in discussions on the performance timeline changes as I don't have a very strong opinion about this. But since Flute138 has contacted me to ask my opinion, I thought I'd also be open and share my thoughts with you. As I've told you before, I completely agree with the principle of adding more colors to further differentiate between different levels of performance. But I do nevertheless think Flute138 has a point about the colors you have chosen being a bit bright and jarring, and that pastel shades would probably be more pleasing to the eye. Perhaps you and Flute138 can discuss this (referring to the Web colors page for color options) and work out something that serves the purpose and also looks nice. If you'd then like my help in implementing it, let me know.

Regards, Zaxem 10:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tennis expert,

I've thought up some color changes and would like to see what you think of them. If you look at Venus Williams' player page, you'll see a great shade of light pink being used for Finals. I think that would be fantastic to make standard. Another change (from your current timelines) I think would be fitting is to maintain the light gray shade of the timeline. The lighter gray blends more with wikipedia's actual color (well, it is wikipedia's main color), and makes the text much easier to read. Thirdly, I support using dashes instead of DNP, simply because it reduces clutter (making the timeline easier to read) and because it is being used by the Grand Slam tournaments on their player profiles, and also the WTA Tour website on its player profiles (the ATP Tennis player profiles display their timelines in a different fashion). I understand you consider dashes to be ambiguous, but how ambiguous can it be if there is a key below the timeline indicating its significance? Fourthly, for players who were playing at the time when the Aussie Open was not held, I'm sure we can agree on perhaps a light shade of orange, or even a darker color, like a gray with a lighter colored text (like a yellow) on top for the NH.

Instead of "DNP," how about "A" for absent or some other one letter code? To the unitiated, a dash can indicate that we don't yet know whether the player participated -or- that we in fact know that the player did not participate -or- something else but we're just not telling. There needs to be a code and the code needs to be defined just below the table. As I have said about 10 times already, I am not wedded to particular colors, as proven when I toned down the silver in the Agassi timeline a few days ago. However, I AM wedded to the idea that there needs to be different colors for different levels of performance -and- that the performance data needs to be distinguished somehow from the column and row headers, which is why I "silvered out" the headers. Tennis expert 17:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC

While I'm not crazy about using a's for absent, I am a big fan of the color changes that you made on the Venus Williams page. Perhaps instead of a's, we could "gray out" the box, and note that in the key below the timeline. --Flute138 13:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't think it's better to substitute "1st," "2nd," "3rd," and "4th" for "1R," "2R," "3R," and "4R" in the Venus Williams page because a causual reader could interpret the former as Venus finishing first, second, etc. in the tournament instead of losing in the first round, second round, etc. As for greying out the not played boxes, I don't think that would work because we're already greying out a bunch of boxes. What shade of grey would you use? Dary grey would almost equal the silver that so many disliked when I tried to use it. Tennis expert 16:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tennis expert.

Looking at the web colors, I think the "a" would be a better option rather than using any sort of grey, but do you think it should be made capital (A)...its a minor thing but it gives a look of symmetry to the table. Also, do you agree with the little changes I made on the Venus Williams page? I just got rid of some color on the timeline, that, IMO gives it a nice professional look. Also, do you really think the timelines need a "career championships played" column? When I first saw that, I was quite confused, and it took a bit of time to comprehend what exactly it mean. Perhaps it would be better just to omit that column, as it also gets rid of resize issues (if you see the Andre Agassi page, the timeline looks a bit out of place due to the addition of that column). Also, as this new standard for player pages is getting fleshed out, do you agree with adding a color code for the year end ranking bit, with the gold for the top 10 finishes, and the light purple (or maybe green) for the number 1 finishes? --Flute138 19:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I like your latest version of the Venus Williams performance timeline better than mine. Good job! I actually would prefer capital (A) to little (a). But I thought that one of the objections to "DNP" (did not participate) was that it cluttered up the table. So, I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that a little (a) would look less jarring to those who previously asked for changes. As for the career championships / total played information, it's a very useful statistic when comparing players with one another across eras. For example, on the WTA blast from the past message board, Grand Slam strike rate (number of championships out of the number contested) is one of the main statistics that people use when arguing who was the greatest player ever. You'll notice that Martina Navratilova won 18 Grand Slam singles championships in 67 attempts. That's a fantastic record. But Margaret Court won 24 in a mere 47 attempts, which many would argue favors Court's career over Navratilova's. Having the statistic displayed in Wikipedia is very convenient (i.e., can be seen at a glance without doing any manual, error prone calculations) and interesting. And I don't think it's all that confusing. As for the resizing issue, I see that problem. Maybe we could use an abbreviation in the column and row headers, with a note at the bottom of the table to explain what we mean. That might also clear up any confusion some would experience with the statistic. The color codes you've mentioned for top 10 and number 1 finishes are fine with me. Tennis expert 22:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tennis expert,

Now that a standard has been set for singles performance timelines, what say you to helping me develop a doubles performance timeline for the likes of Bob/Mike Bryan, the Woodies, Jonas Bjorkman, Bhupathi/Paes and other doubles specialists? I'll start testing out some stuff in the sandbox, and if you're interested in adding some feedback, I'll show it to you to see what you think. Also, someone should probably be compile some pages that need to shift to the new standard of performance timeline (I suppose I can start one up on my talk page, and I'll start updating too).--Flute138 01:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's see. Pete Sampras and Tracy Austin need to be changed a bit. Bjorn Borg, Gustavo Kuerten, and Patrick Rafter need major revisions. And there are a whole bunch of significant current and past tennis players that don't have a performance timeline of any sort. Among men, John McEnroe, Jimmy Connors, Rod Laver, John Newcombe, Ken Rosewall, Roy Emerson, Pat Cash, Tony Trabert, Pancho Gonzales, Bobby Riggs, Don Budge, Fred Perry, Jack Kramer, Lew Hoad, Gottfried von Cramm, and the "Four Musketeers" readily come to mind. Among relatively recent women, Hana Mandlikova is a big omission. My interests are more in female tennis players than male, although I'm willing to help with both genders. My near term plan is to provide timelines for 1960s and earlier female players, including Maureen Connolly, Angela Mortimer, and Suzanne Lenglen. I'd eventually like for every person who has won at least one Grand Slam singles event to have a timeline. Tennis expert 09:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I'm definitely willing to help with developing a doubles performance timeline. Tennis expert 00:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion on timeline layout?

I have just started followed this debate recently. What is the status? The reason is that I just noticed the "new" layout on the Lleyton Hewitt page. Look at the time line layout here: [1] compared to an older one here: [2]. My opinion:

  • It is nice to have different colors for QF, SF, F, and W
  • Rounds prior to QF should not be colored (the merit of reaching the final eight is visually lost)
  • Non-participation should not be shown as "A". A "-" suffices and makes the layout less compact.
  • The column "Career SR" is not adding any information that cannot quickly be seen from the table; it just widens the table unnecessarily.
  • Minor thing: Coudn't the final column header be on two lines to narrow the width of that column?

I am not trying to engage in unproductive debates (and definitely not about vadalism). I just want to note the following in the case of Hewitt: Tennis Expert, you have not commented that you have changed the design of the timeline at all. I think it would be nice if you write in the Edit Summary more clearly what you do, preferably with reference to which consensus (or talk page, at least) you are referring to in making these substantial changes. Otherwise one is almost asking for a revert. A motivation is always helpful. --HJ 22:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

All the timelines are being changed, as time permits, to a uniform format. Yes, this has been talked about. Agreement was reached some time ago. If you know of a way to make a column header use two lines instead of one, I'd certainly like to use it. Tennis expert 00:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Jadwiga Jedrzejowska

It's nice to know you. I am a tennis writer of Japanese Wikipedia. I've written 287 tennis players since November 4th 2004. Thank you for improving Jadwiga Jedrzejowska, a Polish legend! I wrote her Japanese Version in April 28th 2006. Two months after, I made a poor stub in English. Thanks to you, it became much more detailed // beautiful article. Where do you gain timeline information, especially old players? I gained Bud Collins' "Total Tennis: The Ultimate Tennis Encyclopedia". However, some people still missing in it -- What's your researching sources? I'll try to search on eBay. (Some sections above, Collins and "Official Encyclopedia of Tennis" by USTA are mentioned. I ordered USTA encyclopedia too, but not received yet.) Any other references?? My best regards. --Hhst 07:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow! That's a bunch of articles. A large group of women's tennis fans has painstakingly transcribed and posted the draws for virtually every Grand Slam singles and doubles tournament since about 1900. You can find them here: http://www.wtaworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=108 They have used a wide variety of sources for the draws, including old newspaper articles. One of the best things is that for many of the draws, there is a newspaper-like story describing what happened. Enjoy! Tennis expert 14:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your information! I added it to my favorite shortcuts immediately. Let me introduce two excellent tennis writers overseas, types not exist in English WP. Swedish WP, Mr. Rapsodin specializes in historical tennis. (Talk Page) Polish WP, Mr. Berasategui is the most experienced tennis writer in all Wikipedia projects: He started his activity in February 10th 2004. In July 26th 2006, he completed International Tennis Hall of Fame for the first achievement in Wikipedia! (Polish Version) I've admired them for a long time. So many writers in English WP, but historical field is still so weak -- Keep on doing your greatest job! Best regards --Hhst 04:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Typhoon Vamei and local geography

Here's your link for Vamei. Cold surges that are fed by terrain to the west help increase vorticity in poleward facing small gulfs, like north of Panama, north of Honduras, the Bay of Campeche, and where Vamei formed. Similar low level vorticies can form a bit to the east of north-south mountain chains for a similar reason, like in the central Plains or near the East coast of the United States, with very little upper level forcing. As for Agni, I'd have to look into that some more. If there's another link, I'll let you know. This type of preferred low level turning appears to be the only culpit to get you enough vorticity near the surface near the equator. Most times this happens, upper level conditions are normally hostile to development. Just look at the western Gulf of Mexico right now. Thegreatdr 00:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The way you wrote the sentence I deleted, it implied that you had data to support this method of formation for Agni. If you have data only for Vamei, then you need to rework the sentence. Tennis expert 00:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Tropical Cyclone Xavier

Rapid intensification does not have to adhere strictly to the definition given in the article. If the RSMC and the JTWC are saying it's rapidly (or explosively) intensifying, then it is, whether its pressure is actually dropping 2.5 mbar per hour or not. Accusing other editors of providing false information when they haven't is incivil, so please refrain from this behavior in the future. --Coredesat 04:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Prove where I said that another editor provided "false information." Who is mischaracterizing whom? Tennis expert 04:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Coredesat 04:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Offering an olive branch

In a personal attempt by me to mend our strained relations regarding the article to do with SHem storms, let me be the first to officially welcome you to the tropical cyclone project.

The latest version of our monthly newsletter may be found here; please state your preference (WP:WPTC/SPAM) of how you'd like to be informed of new versions of the newsletter.

Also, the guidelines we drew up a while back for new storm articles:

Dear Tropical cyclone editor,

As a member of the Tropical Cyclone Wikiproject, you are receiving this message to describe how you can better tropical cyclone articles. There are hundreds of tropical cyclone articles, though many of them are poorly organized and lacking in information. Using the existing featured articles as a guide line, here is the basic format for the ideal tropical cyclone article.

  1. Infobox- Whenever possible, the infobox should have a picture for the tropical cyclone. The picture can be any uploaded picture about the storm, though ideally it should be a satellite shot of the system. If that is not available, damage pictures, either during the storm or after the storm, are suitable. In the area that says Formed, indicate the date on which the storm first developed into a tropical depression. In the area that says Dissipated, indicate the date on which the storm lost its tropical characteristics. This includes when the storm became extratropical, or if it dissipated. If the storm dissipated and reformed, include the original start date and the final end date. Highest winds should be the local unit of measurement for speed (mph in non-metric countries, km/h in metric countries), with the other unit in parenthesis. The lowest pressure should be in mbars. Damages should, when available, be in the year of impact, then the present year. The unit of currency can be at your discretion, though typically it should be in USD. Fatalities indicate direct deaths first, then indirect deaths. Areas affected should only be major areas of impact. Specific islands or cities should only be mentioned if majority of the cyclone's effects occurred there.
  2. Intro- The intro for every article should be, at a minimum, 2 paragraphs. For more impacting hurricanes, it should be 3. The first should describe the storm in general, including a link to the seasonal article, its number in the season, and other statistics. The second should include a brief storm history, while the third should be impact.
  3. Storm history- The storm history should be a decent length, relatively proportional to the longevity of the storm. Generally speaking, the first paragraph should be the origins of the storm, leading to the system reaching tropical storm status. The second should be the storm reaching its peak. The third should be post-peak until landfall and dissipation. This section is very flexable, depending on meteorological conditions, but it should generally be around 3. Storm histories can be longer than three paragraphs, though they should be less than five. Anything more becomes excessive. Remember, all storm impacts, preparations, and records can go elsewhere. Additional pictures are useful here. If the picture in the infobox is of the storm at its peak, use a landfall picture in the storm history. If the picture in the infobox is of the storm at its landfall, use the peak. If the landfall is its peak, use a secondary peak, or even a random point in the storm's history.
  4. Preparations- The preparations section can be any length, depending on the amount of preparations taken by people for the storm. Hurricane watches and warnings need to be mentioned here, as well as the number of people evacuated from the coast. Include numbers of shelters, and other info you can find on how people prepared for the storm.
  5. Impact- For landfalling storms, the impact section should be the majority of the article. First, if the storm caused deaths in multiple areas, a death table would work well in the top level impact section. A paragraph of the general effects of the storm is also needed. After the intro paragraph, impact should be broken up by each major area. It depends on the information, but sections should be at least one paragraph, if not more. In the major impact areas, the first paragraph should be devoted to meteorological statistics, including rainfall totals, peak wind gusts on land, storm surge, wave heights, beach erosion, and tornadoes. The second should be actual damage. Possible additional paragraphs could be detailed information on crop damage or specifics. Death and damage tolls should be at the end. Pictures are needed, as well. Ideally, there would be at least one picture for each sub-section in the impact, though this sometimes can't happen. For storms that impact the United States or United States territories, this site can be used for rainfall data, including an image of rainfall totals.
  6. Aftermath- The aftermath section should describe foreign aid, national aid, reconstruction, short-term and long-term environmental effects, and disease. Also, the storm's retirement information, whether it happened or not, should be mentioned here.
  7. Records- This is optional, but can't hurt to be included.
  8. Other- The ideal article should have inline sourcing, with the {{cite web}} formatting being preferable. Always double check your writing and make sure it makes sense.

Good luck with future writing, and if you have a question about the above, don't hesitate to ask.

Again, welcome to the project, and hopefully we'll be able to work co-operatively in the future together. – Chacor 13:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much! Tennis expert 19:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Erroneous block as a sock puppet for cute 1 4 u

Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s):

This block seems unfounded. I apologize to you, Tennis expert. To any administator who feels I have accepted this request in error, please contact me immediately as I do not wish to step on the toes of anyone's decision, but only to expedite the request of this user. -- Renesis (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Request handled by: Renesis (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much, Renesis! Tennis expert 04:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This block was made because it was proven through CheckUser evidence that shows you and Tennislover utilize the same IP address range, and Tennislover and Cute 1 4 u do, as well. Cute 1 4 u is banned for having exhausted the community's patience in evading her indefinite block, and now her ban. The only way to appeal a checkuser block is to request that another checkuser be performed to prove that you are not this banned user.—Řÿūłóñģ (竜龍) 07:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Please tell me how I can request another checkuser when I am blocked from doing that or anything else except for editing this page. Do you see the "catch 22" here? Tennis expert 18:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This is totally ridiculous, absurd, arbitrary, and unfair. I am NOT Tennislover. In fact, I have edited/changed some of Tennislover's recent posts. Look at my editing history. There is no way we're the same person. By the way, how can I request a checkuser be performed when I am BLOCKED? I have no idea what "evidence" proves that I am also user:Tennislover and/or user:cute 1 4 u. If the "evidence" consists merely of similar IP addresses, let it be known that my IP addresses are dynamically assigned, i.e., I receive a new address from Earthlink every time I log on to my home DSL account. And finally, the Checkuser handbook makes it very clear that someone should not be conclusively said to be someone else based solely on similar IP addresses. Ryulong seems to think that Checkuser "proves" same identity. It does NOT. Tennis expert 15:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification: the preceding paragraph was my response to Řÿūłóñģ before he or she edited his or her original post at 18:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC). Řÿūłóñģ's post originally said, "This block was made because it was proven through CheckUser evidence that shows you and Tennislover are the same person, and Tennislover and Cute 1 4 u are the same person." Tennis expert 18:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

I sent a note to dmcdevit. ---J.S (T/C) 07:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Tennis expert 16:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, this is the only place I can post while I am blocked. I am begging you, absolutely BEGGING you, PLEASE do not speedy delete any of the articles I have authored, including tennis performance timeline comparison (women). I have spent hundreds of hours on that article. If it helps any, I swear on my own life and the life of all my family members that I am neither Tennislover nor cute 1 4 u nor anyone else on Wikipedia. I have always had one account: this one (although I did edit some before registering). I live no where close to the Chicago area, which is where some suspect that cute 1 4 u lives. I am about 4 times the age of that user. And I am the opposite gender. I am at a loss about how to defend myself because I am being talked about on several Wikipedia pages as if there is irrefutable evidence of my being the evil Tennislover or cute 1 4 u; yet, because I am blocked, I cannot respond to any of the posts. This is like being speedily tried, convicted, and executed without a hearing, without the opportunity to appeal, and without being given the chance to see and dispute the evidence. I have sent an e-mail to Dmcdevit about my block, but he or she has not responded. Please help me on this! Thanks. Tennis expert 17:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Řÿūłóñģ denied my unblock request even though he or she is not an administrator. When this was noticed at WP:AN, Řÿūłóñģ said , "And my actions such as that there have been discussed before in that they are not harmful." Well, in my opinion, his or her denial of my unblock request was potentially very harmful. The denial removed me from the pending list of users who had requested unblocking (CAT:RFU) and could have caused many administrators never to notice my request. There should be a mechanism to prevent users who are not administrators from granting or denying an unblock request. (Again, I would have posted this at WP:AN in response to Řÿūłóñģ but I am blocked from editing anything except this page.) Tennis expert 19:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My permanent ban case was resolved in my favor: I am not a sock puppet for cute 1 4 u or Tennislover. My big thanks goes to those who supported me through this ordeal! Tennis expert 20:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words on my talk page. I am happy to help. Sometimes all it takes is another pair of eyes. If you need any help in the future, be sure to let me know. -- Renesis (talk) 21:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Note

I regret the inconvenience to which you are currently subject. You may rest assured that several administrators are examining your situation, to ascertain where exactly the mistake was made.

Please realize that, on more than one occasion, we have had people running multiple accounts at odds with "each other", some of which had very different personalities until they were exposed. I am not saying that this is what is happening in your case, merely pointing out why we cannot necessarily take you at your word. DS 18:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Also - don't worry, any articles you have created will not be deleted solely because you created them. DS 18:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Anything you can do to expedite this review would be appreciated. There's nothing worse than being publicly talked about as if you're some sort of criminal, while being unable to respond because your mouth has been figuratively taped shut. Yes, I fully understand the problem with sock puppets. But there has to be a better way of dealing with them than blocking innocent editors without advance notice based solely on the fact that they have a similar IP range to the evildoer. Tennis expert 19:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome Back

I've followed this case from the sidelines and I'm glad to see that everything worked out. Welcome back to Wikipedia! If you ever need anything, feel free to leave a message on my talk page. Have a great rest of your day! – Lantoka (talk) 14:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome back on my talk page. I'm very happy everything worked out in the end. USC, huh. Well, I won't hold that against you too long. Tennis expert 20:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Hahaha. Well, I have no idea how we do in tennis, but you're definitely entitled to holding our football team's loss to UCLA against me. I mean seriously, how on earth did we blow that? We get a loss in the middle of the season, drop like six ranks in the polls, then get back to #2 within a week or two due to some really really bizzare upsets. And THEN we lose to one of our two biggest rivals (UCLA) after soundly stomping the other one (Notre Dame). Considering that we've consistently beat UCLA seven years in a row, the fact that they're unranked, and that they've lost about half of their games this season... yah, pretty embarrassing. We'll have to make up for it by stomping Michigan in the Rose Bowl. ;) Take care man! – Lantoka (talk) 20:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Tennis Expert. I noticed you were unblocked but I didn't get t o commemt. An administrator ran the checkuser again and found out I'm not cute 1 4 u. Sorry about your block. --Tennislover 14:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Tropical cyclones WikiProject Newsletter #8

The January issue of the WikiProject Tropical cyclones newsletter is now available. If you wish to receive the full newsletter or no longer be informed of the release of future editions, please add your username to the appropriate section on the mailing list.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

World No...s in boldface

Ciao! I see that you're caring of most of tennis articles here. According to WP:Style, it is wrong to put the World No. xxx notices in the players' entries in boldface. so, maybe, when surfing on each article to do your improvements or correction, you could also correct it. Bye and good work. --Attilios 14:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

NItalic textotable matches

Hi. Regarding your recent re-addition of the "notable matches" section in the article Maria Sharapova. I took a look at the "Career in Review" section on the WTA website. It's not very easy to sort out, but it appears to me that that section lists every tournament she played, noting that she either won the title or informing in which stage she lost. This seems to be made especially clear in the section for the 2005 season: it says "(...) all 15 events", and then lists her performance in them all — and, of course, the list that you readded contains exactly the matches in which she won a title (finals) or the matches in which she was eliminated from a tournament, limited, it seems, to those that were already a part of the previous list, which I removed. Obviously, a page that lists everything she's ever done does not validate an arbitrary list of a few matches that are supposed to be worthy of special note (on that page, everything is noted). Picking a small number of matches from a website that reviews her entire career (hence "career review") constitutes original research, inasmuch as we are the ones selecting them — what you did, specifically, was restore the matches that were already in the list I removed and that were also mentioned in the all-inclusive list, which didn't solve the original problem, in light of what the WTA page is about. We need something that says "these here are a few matches played by this player that stand out", not a website that lists virtually everything; and per WP:RS, it can't be from something like "IloveSharapova.com". ;-) As it stands, unless some other source could be named for those matches, I will remove the section, again. Cheers, Redux 12:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is exactly that the WTA page lists every tournament she's played. If the WTA page was some sort of selective list, wherein only a number of matches (or even just one match), or only a number of tournaments were listed (considering that it could be listing tournaments where her victory, or her being defeated and not winning it, was particularly noteworthy), that'd be one thing, but it lists every single tournament in which she played (noting that she won the title or informing in which stage she lost). Notice that the list you restored is, in a way, a cross-reference between the original list I removed and the WTA website, inasmuch as it features exactly the matches representing a tournament title (finals) and/or an elimination that were already in that original list. The sore spot is precisely that when we pick out arbitrarily a few matches from an inclusive list that comprises her entire career, that's original research, something that would really represent Wikipedia's (or rather, its editors) understanding of which matches would be worthy of special note.
Finding what would be the necessary source or sources for that list is next to impossible exactly because those lists are in fact the creation of Wikipedia users; we don't often see a reputable source that will say something like "looking back at this player's entire career, these are a few matches that clearly stand out and should be worthy of special mention". The troubling part is that, for some time, Wikipedia was the one providing originally this kind of selection, that is, Wikipedia was acting as a primary source, something that we cannot ever do.
I do believe that this list's absence really makes no difference in the big picture though. This kind of listing begun some time back as a random selection of matches that editors started listing at will — which, as noted, is completely inappropriate for Wikipedia to do. At first, it was exclusively flattering to the subject, listing only "important" matches won, then people started adding also "low points", with stunning, or unexpected, or hard-fought defeats. It became even more unnecessary with the inception of the standard titles' table, which dismisses the need to otherwise list a player's titles in another section. Redux 03:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course the WTA website is a reputable source for information, just not for this particular kind of thing. Again, the WTA website lists everything, and we are arbitrarily picking a handful to list as "our own" list of notables. For the WTA, everything is notable, and the fact that we are picking and choosing a selection of what the WTA is listing is what constitutes original research — we have on our article only a small percentage of what is listed on that page, and what is our criterion if not our own notion of what should be listed? Sorry, but if we wanted to reproduce a list of what the WTA features as notable, which is what the opening paragraph for that section, which you wrote, is saying, we'd have to list everything that is in there — that would solve the original research problem, but would create other problems, such as making this unnecessarily long; and a problem of notability, since the WTA is a tennis-specialized website that aims to be as inclusive as it can be in listing matches, whereas we are an encyclopedia, where this kind of listing is excessive and doesn't contribute to the bottom line of what we are trying to do here. Redux 11:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Lists and ranks are not the same thing as prose. Editors may reach consensus regarding which aspects of, say, a tennis player's biography are noteworthy and merit inclusion, as long as it is in line with Wikipedia policy: prose is subject to the same rules of "no original research", "verifiability", etc. With lists and ranks, the situation is difficult, because when we are being selective, or arbitrary, it is very easy to cross the line into original research. And if it is original research, it is actually immaterial that a group of users reached consensus to include it. Wikipedia cannot carry original research, period.
If would be a different story if we had, for instance, three websites, each listing, say, three matches that they consider noteworthy. We could compile all 9 matches, naming the sources; then editors could reach consensus that one of the websites is not reliable, or trustworthy, or serious enough to have its listing included, and then remove the three matches it lists. I'm sure you see the difference from listing our own selection of matches, regardless of whether or not users agreed to it — we still must observe policy —, and listing as a source of our own selection a website that reviews a player's entire career. Any such entries, on any article, must be removed equally. The fact that they might have gone unnoticed to anyone who knows better only means that policy is being violated, and such a situation must be remedied. Similar lists, put together arbitrarily by Wikipedia editors, have been removed not only from other tennis players' bios, but also from other athletes' and from articles on actors, directors, etc.. Redux 21:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Riggs-Court

I looked through the Court article but didn't see the Riggs match buried in the Trivia section. You were right, therefore, to remove my edit from the lead paragraph. I think, however, that this match is worth more than an easily overlooked mentioned in the Trivia. I think it ought to be at least in the second paragraph. What do you think? Hayford Peirce 03:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Text formatting

In the article Female tennis players with most singles major championship wins I changed the unformatted (line starting with blank) table key to a more appropriate bullet list, but you reverted it back. I only assumed it was a mistake by the original editor, because it looks quite bad/disruptive to have a different font (and fixed width) in an outlined box that looks like a table right next to another table. I can not see the logic behind this disruptive format and as far as I can tell from the manual of style (WP:MOS)the only use for this type of text is for a quick and dirty table (because of the fixed width font). Deon Steyn 07:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the fixed-width monospace font is a ridiculous choice for a table key. Please change it. Thanks. El Ingles 14:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea what either one of you are talking about. My objection is to Deon Steyn's change of the text of the definitions. I couldn't care less about the font of those definitions, the tables, or whatever. Cheers. Tennis expert 15:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Fine, it's changed. El Ingles 16:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Françoise Durr article

Hi. The Template:Wikify and Intro tags have been reinstated because:

  1. Article still needs to be wikified
  2. The intro is still very long
  3. Maintenaince tags belong to mainspace, not talk page

Maintenance tags only help in improving articles (Maybe even up to featured article status!) by seeking the attention of editors who know about the subject matter more, not to discredit the articles. Remove them only after the required changes have been made.

Regards, Aeons | Talk 05:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Tropical cyclones WikiProject Newsletter #9

The February issue of the WikiProject Tropical cyclones newsletter is now available. If you wish to receive the full newsletter or no longer be informed of the release of future editions, please add your username to the appropriate section on the mailing list.--Nilfanion (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Rosewall

That's a nice start you've made on the Rosewall article. I've long thought it was one of the worst-written tennis articles but I didn't have the strength of character to begin copyediting (and rewriting) it myself -- there just seemed like to much to do.... Hayford Peirce 23:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can work in about the rivalry with Hoad. I'll certainly do that for the 1956 U.S. Championships. As you say, right now, it is mainly a laundry list of matches. Hayford Peirce 04:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The IP vandals

Thank you for helping revert the edits of multiple vandals (though it may be just one user whose IP address changes). As you've noticed, he/she is trying to change the format of the wins/runner-ups data, which at this point should remain as is because it is clear and easy to navigate. These vandals think that it is clearer to make a "Records" subheading, which in my opinion (and gladly in yours) is cluttered and not useful. It makes the reader scrutinize to see which ones were wins and which were losses - a clear waste of time. I was originally worried that there was some discussion about it, and that people agreed to change the format. However, seeing you revert those edits (after all you are the tennis expert) affirmed my initial reaction.
Unfortunately, the user is persistent, and it is getting tougher to track all the edits made by the multiple IP addresses. Do you have any suggestions, ie reporting them and stopping those IP addresses from making edits to help stop the vandalism? Thanks again. Supertigerman 00:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I support the suggestion of semi-protecting the pages. It is really annoying. Today the stuff has been going on with at least three different IPs. The articles I have spotted (and reverted on) as a "target" is Roger Federer, Pete Sampras, Andre Agassi, Rafael Nadal and Lleyton Hewitt. Probably there are more. But the listed pages are in any case almost every day subject to blatant vandalism. So I think they should be semi protected.--HJ 22:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I vote to keep the NEW format that those so called vandals did. It makes much more sense.

FYI I have reported one IP for violation of the 3RR rule here--HJ 23:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


Your message on my talk page about Lman1987

Thanks for the notification! Notive my response. Regards, --HJ 17:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Entry on administrators' noticeboard about User:Lman1987

I thought you might be interested in this. An entry about Lman1987's recent editing history has been posted on the administrators' noticeboard.[3] Tennis expert 16:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Unfortunately he/she continues the disruptive behavior under the name User: Tennis Genius. See [4] --HJ 17:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Impersonators

Earlier today you notified WP:RFCN of the impersonator Tennis Xspert (talk · contribs). I have now indefblocked Tennis Xpert (talk · contribs) for the same reason. If any other accounts appear, please let me know, so that further action may be taken. AecisBrievenbus 01:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This blocking is is fine - but will it do?. The disruptive user most likely maintains the username Tennis Genius. This is really annoying. Thanks for the efforts TE!--HJ 07:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Requests for semiprotection

Hi I see your requests for semiprotection of a number of tennis bios was rejected. For what it is worth, I have added my support on the request page and asked for reconsideration. Just watchlisting and reverting simply take up precious time. Thanks for your efforts for far. Drop a note if you need more help. Regards, --HJ 17:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I've stuck in my own two cents at that page also -- why they won't protect all these articles baffles me.... Hayford Peirce 18:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

IP addresses

Well, it seems that crisis is over, but I was wondering how you found the location of Knoxville, Tennessee for that vandal. Supertigerman 18:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Assessment of tennis articles

I really don't know how this works, so I figure, u can help me. Can we asses tennis articles ourselves and how to log our assessments ? --Göran Smith 20:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

And can u find some info on Gwendoline Eastlake-Smith, she won gold on Tennis at the 1908 Summer Olympics - Women's indoor singles; because she is only red name on Templete about gold medals in tennis. --Göran Smith 20:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, but must I keep some log on my assessments on Wikipedia:WikiProject Tennis/Assessment page ? --Göran Smith 09:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Incivility in Roger Federer edit summaries towards Zaheen

I will answer your question regarding my comments for Zahaan. He frequently edits the Roger Federer article, deleting a lot of entries and creating his own. He believes he owns that article, and god-forbid somebody else edit/include information, he will delete it or alter it. This type of ego nonsense is not needed on this Server.--Emperor 23:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The new grand slam format may not be all that bad

I know, I know, you must think I'm crazy to actually consider what the anonymous user is doing to many tennis pages, but his latest version, including the Wins/Runners-up in a subheading and adding the win/loss column makes it quite readable. Examining the Federer page, it shows that he was consistently in the finals for all 4 tournaments in 2006, something that is not as prevalent in the original format. My original problem with the format was that you couldn't tell which was a win or loss without scrutinizing the table, but the win/loss column makes it clear. The user has adapted from the original subheading of "Record (10-1)" to "Wins (10)/Runner-ups (1), which isn't so horrible, and might even be better. Ideally, he should be discussing these changes before making the edits, but if we ignore his rudeness, his format isn't too shabby. Let me know if you're considering it.Supertigerman 03:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I still prefer the old format. It's difficult to pick out the wins from the losses in the table when they're all bunched together. And it will be even more difficult for players who have played in many finals and have a relatively even number of wins and losses (unlike Federer who's won 10 and only lost 1). Zaxem 04:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Zaxem. Tennis expert 06:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I support the current format per Zaxem arguments. --HJ 06:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

RFPP

Please don't make individual requests like that. Just stack them into one request, and that way it won't take as much space. Nishkid64 21:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You could have left a note on the protecting admin's talk page, or left a note at RFPP. It would have solved the problem heh. Nishkid64 22:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Tennis articles

Honestly, I've been hesitating to deal with this since it's a tricky situation. The user is being stubborn, but the dispute seems to be over a format that was previously agreed by other users. I suggest taking this to WP:AN/I to get a community response. Nishkid64 22:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Formatting of tennis players' pages

User:Lman1987, under various names and IP addresses, continues to try and change the formatting of the records sections of various tennis players' pages. The user is trying to make what they believe to be a constructive improvement (and to some extent I see their point on how it would be nice to see players' finals all listed in chronological order), but definately needs a lesson in constructive discussion and enagagement on Wikipedia.

The reason I said that I didn't like this user's ideas on formatting before was becuase it made it very hard to pick out wins from losses in that format. But it has occured to me that if each entire line of wins had its text in bold and losses were not in bold, that problem might be solved and we'd in fact have what might be quite a good format.

Here's how that would look for Jim Courier's Grand Slam finals:

Wins (4) / Runner-ups (3)

Year Championship Opponent in Final Result Score in Final
1991 French Open (1) United States Andre Agassi Win 3-6, 6-4, 2-6, 6-1, 6-4
1991 U.S. Open Sweden Stefan Edberg Loss 2-6, 4-6, 0-6
1992 Australian Open (1) Sweden Stefan Edberg Win 6-3, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2
1992 French Open (2) Czechoslovakia Petr Korda Win 7-5, 6-2, 6-1
1993 Australian Open (2) Sweden Stefan Edberg Win 6-2, 6-1, 2-6, 7-5
1993 French Open Spain Sergi Bruguera Loss 4-6, 6-2, 2-6, 6-3, 3-6
1993 Wimbledon United States Pete Sampras Loss 6-7, 6-7, 6-3, 3-6

And here's how it would look for Stefan Edberg's:

Wins (6) / Runner-ups (5)

Year Championship Opponent in Final Result Score in Final
1985 Australian Open (1) Flag of Sweden Mats Wilander Win 6-4, 6-3, 6-3
1987 Australian Open (2) Flag of Australia Pat Cash Win 6-3, 6-4, 3-6, 5-7, 6-3
1988 Wimbledon (1) Flag of Germany Boris Becker Win 4-6, 7-6, 6-4, 6-2
1989 French Open Flag of the United States Michael Chang Loss 1-6, 6-3, 6-4, 4-6, 2-6
1989 Wimbledon Flag of Germany Boris Becker Loss 0-6, 6-7, 4-6
1990 Australian Open Flag of Czechoslovakia Ivan Lendl Loss 6-4, 6-7, 2-5 (retired)
1990 Wimbledon (2) Flag of Germany Boris Becker Win 6-2, 6-2, 3-6, 3-6, 6-4
1991 U.S. Open (1) Flag of the United States Jim Courier Win 6-2, 6-4, 6-0
1992 Australian Open Flag of the United States Jim Courier Loss 3-6, 6-3, 4-6, 2-6
1992 U.S. Open (2) Flag of the United States Pete Sampras Win 3-6, 6-4, 7-6, 6-2
1993 Australian Open Flag of the United States Jim Courier Loss 2-6, 1-6, 6-2, 5-7

What do you think? Would this in fact be both an improvement and a reasonable accommodation that might stop the current edit war?

Just a thought.

Regards,

Zaxem 04:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

That looks pretty reasonable to me. And informative. It would be nice to see this strange reversion war stopped one way or another. Hayford Peirce 17:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering if you have considered the above format proposed by Zaxem. Many editors, including myself, Zaxem, Redux, and Irishguy view it as an improvement. Thanks. Supertigerman 03:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I continue to oppose reversing the order of the scores. Otherwise, I am neutral on the change except that someone needs to commit to changing the hundreds of tennis articles that use the current format. That will be a lot of work, and under no circumstances should it be done by a permanently blocked user or his sockpuppets. When wholesale changes are proposed like this, I believe there needs to be a cost-benefit analysis. If the changes are a minor improvement but costly in terms of editor time, then why make them? The articles are sorely in need of more significant and substantive improvements, and going through all the articles (men and women) to make a format change of only marginal benefit is not the best use of time, especially considering that there are not that many editors who regularly edit tennis articles. By the way, where did Redux say that the proposed format is an improvement? I must have missed that post. One last comment: I do not see the need to "bold" anything in the tables. Best regards. Tennis expert 03:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think bolding is useful in that it instantly shows that it is giving the winner's score. So why not use it? As long as someone else wants to go to all the trouble to do it.... Hayford Peirce 03:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Just my personal preference and because I believe it sets a bad precedent for bolding anything and everything that an editor believes needs to be emphasized. But if the consensus is against me, I will of course abide by it. Tennis expert 03:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Here we go again. I'm trying to help out as best I can. And are we allowed to revert 3 times in a row if we are reverting vandalism? Supertigerman 05:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Federer

I'll reprotect if it starts up again. Please let me know if it does, in case I don't notice. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I've put the sprotection back. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I started to sprotect the ones 65.6.54.37 has messed with, and where there's been other vandalism (I also blocked that IP for 24 hours, though that might be pointless), then I realized that there are an awful lot of them. Would it be helpful to sprotect them all, or are there particular ones that are worse than others? Or this is a very temporary thing that can be dealt with by reverting? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Gwendoline Eastlake-Smith

Having seen the WP:FAR of Suzanne Lenglen, I noticed that Gwendoline Eastlake-Smith was a redlink (she won a gold medal at the London Olympics in 1908) and decided to write something about her. Looking online for some details, I find that the official Olympic Games website (and all of the inbound Wikipedia links) thinks that she won the medal, but the British Olympic Association and some fan websites call her Gladys Eastlake-Smith. "Gladys" married two days after winning the gold medal, and played on as Gladys Lamplough (which is where I have moved the artcle, with redirects). Gladys also won various British championships, and was a Wimbledon semi-finalist.

Given your user name, I wonder if you have access to any better sources and can confirm or deny my surmises from the limited and rather contradictory online sources? I would be very grateful for any assistance that you can offer. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I noticed Philippe Chatrier was redlinked and had a go at him too. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Eileen Bennett Whittingstall

Hello! Do you remember me, about Jadwiga Jedrzejowska? I found a difficult article, like Eileen Bennett Whittingstall. Where did you find her lifetime, <July 16, 1907 - died 1979>? I keep on collecting old tennis books, especially players' biographies, but I can't find any information about Whittingstall from my collection. Can you tell me about your sources, website or books? Whittingstall lost Helen Wills Moody in several finals. I've been interested in Wills Moody, over ten years. (I use WTAWorld.com threads to make Grand Slams by year, all seeded players of women. Contrary to detailed drawsheets of ATP Tour, WTA gets more and more inconvenient! I finished writing 1979 US Open in Japanese.) My best regards. --Hhst 08:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

My edits to tennis

Hi, All the information I took out of the tennis article can be found in the tennis courts article. I thought that information was a little too in-depth for the main article. As it stands the article is way too long, so I was just trying to streamline it a little. While I'm here, what's your opinion on the "great players" sections? I think they're completely POV and should be removed entirely. Let me know, and let's keep the lines of communication open. --Spyder_Monkey (Talk) 05:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


Yes, historical context is important, but it doesn't need to be something that takes up 1/4th of the page (not including the section titled 'history'). Where I'm coming from is this: take a look at football (soccer) and cricket. They're both featured articles, and (aside from a small mention in cricket) there's no discussion of individual players at all. It's a great debate, but I don't think it belongs in an encyclopedia. --Spyder_Monkey (Talk) 06:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what I was about to say. It is unjust to say which players serve a mention in the article, seems to be a violation of WP:NPOV. --KZ Talk • Vandal • Contrib 07:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, I am a little peasant of the East who loves Barbie dolls

Tennis Expert...You reporting me is insignificant as you have been banned several times. Nobody will take you seriously, with your lack of English ability and poor social skills. I suggest you go back to the sand pit and play with your barbie dolls, you little peasant of the East. I suggest this individual be banned permanently from Wikipedia, as he has threatened me with emails and implied that my life is on the line. I have proof of this. Please leave me alone, as I am a busy man. --Emperor 08:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Warning for personal attacks for you Overlord. Comment on content not user. --KZ Talk • Vandal • Contrib 05:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Tennis expert, I noticed this diff -- hilarious! Please stay around, but remember WP:COOL (particularly the latter section). Just hold your head up high, you've done nothing wrong and are a great and prolific contributor. --Iamunknown 01:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

"Runner-ups" vs. "Runners-up"

I notice you've been changing some of the "Runner-ups" heading for players records in singles events to "Runners-up". That's incorrect use of the term "runners-up". The term "runners-up" means there was more than one runner-up at the same event - e.g. in a doubles event the runners-up were the pair of ___ and ___. When a player has been runner-up at more than one serparate event, "runner-ups" is the correct term to use. Zaxem 08:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't find a specific source which outlines the grammar rules for the terms. But if you look at articles in well written publications, they generally use the formual I've outlined above. "Runners-up" is generally used in situations where there is more than one runner-up at an event, be it becuase it's a team event or because of a tie for the runner-up position (e.g. " _____ were the runners-up" / "_____ and _____ were the runners-up"). "Runner-ups" is generally used to denote a number of runner-up positions attained by the same player or team at different events (e.g. "_____ has achieved 3 runner-ups in tournaments this year"). Here's just a few examples of articles I picked out in a quick search where you can see these terms in context: [5] [6] [7] [8]. Some publications don't follow this formula, but from what I can tell most of the well established ones do. Zaxem 02:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Martina Hingis performance timeline

Just an FYI: I just recently checked Martina Hingis' 2006 performance details in the WTA website. I counted the carpet win-loss and it was at 9-1, and not at 9-3 as reported in the wikipedia article. Joey80 06:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

WTA Tour career earnings

First, thanks for helping on Kuznecova and Petrova timetable. :)

I want to make a WTA Tour career earnings table for Jelena Janković, but I found very difficult to find data for every year on WTA web site. Can you help me to find info ? :) (off Wiki question: Who is your favorite at Miami Masters?) --Göran Smith 18:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Tennis Bossman

I don't get the edits made to this user page. How is this user an ip sock of another user? --KZ Talk • Vandal • Contrib 05:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it...now it makes sense. --KZ Talk • Vandal • Contrib 05:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandelism

User:Tennis Bossman seem to keep vandalizing your page. I'll try to help out and revert future edits. Sodaplayer talk contributions ^_^ 05:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Tennis Bossman has been blocked Sodaplayer talk contributions ^_^ 06:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Sssploded! HalfShadow 06:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I deleted all the revisions of vandalism authored by the above (now indef blocked) user. ViridaeTalk 06:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Tennis, again

I’ve gone ahead and re-reverted your reversions. The links I took out were already linked to earlier in the article, and according to Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout#See_also, the section “should ideally not repeat links already present in the article” (emphasis theirs). I removed all the tournament links, because all of those articles are linked to in the List of tennis tournaments, linked to in the Tournaments section. I removed list of tennis courts because it is woefully incomplete, has a bad title (would “venues” work a little better?), and, primarily, is redundant to Category:Tennis venues.

On another note, I feel like you’re not giving my edits a fair shake. Please try to see that what I’m trying to do is improve the article. I feel like if I make any edits to the article, you’re just going to revert them without checking to see if they actually make sense. If you indeed don’t think they make sense come talk to me about it! I’m not a bot!

I want to see this article reach featured status. It’s not going to get there unless we make some changes. I’d like to work together to get to that point, but right now, I get the sense that you want to leave the article as it is right now. Please respond and tell me I’m wrong about that. --Spyder_Monkey (Talk) 01:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see my response to your comments. Spyder_Monkey (Talk) 03:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You have a new impersonator

Hi. I was just looking up Special:Listusers when I discovered this. It is the only user that I have seen so far that has a username similar to yours and has not yet been blocked. Should I report this to WP:AIV, or should I leave it because it has no edits? I have seen that most, if not all, users with an impersonating name to yours are a sockpuppet of an indef blocked user. Should someone do something? Thanks. AstroHurricane001(Talk+Contribs+Ubx) 22:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I added it to AIV. --Iamunknown 22:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

WTAWorld Source

Nice find! It was eerie reading through their discussion of what they also called the "Grand Slam Project". Do you know any of these people. If you don't, I'll contact Brian Stewart and see if we can use their data, and if he'd be interested in helping out with our project. I wish there were something like this for the men's draws, but the men's forum corresponding to wtaworld looks less frequented. --dantheox 01:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Andre Agassi

Hi, thanks for your efforts to source the Agassi quotes. I know this is hard work. The quote site, I'm afraid, is very weak, because such sites are not very reliable, but the other two are, at least, better than what we had before. --Tony Sidaway 04:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Tennis

Please stop edit warring to re-insert that section of original research into the Tennis article. There has been discussion on the talk page and most people (including an outside third opinion) agree to the removal. Decisions on article content are made by debate on the talk page, not by one self-proclaimed expert - and if content is contested, the onus is on the people who want it added to prove that it's encyclopedic, not the other way around. I note you haven't joined this discussion so far; please do so rather than asserting ownership over the article. >Radiant< 10:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Radiant-that section has been there forever. It would seem, to be fair, that you are the one edit warring. Why not leave it and have your say on the discussion page until a consensus is reached. And I don't see the consensus you allude to. If you want to change it, make your points, and I'd there is a consensus, it will be changed. You know better--this edit warring on your part is not the way to go. Epeefleche 08:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Justine Henin and other player stats

Yes WTA is corect showing her win count in this case. Problem is that fed cup matches are miscounted in Wikipedia. Justine played 13 of them and lost 1 (check that same WTA website) so it shuold be Fed cup (12-1) and (56-8) in 2006. On the other hand that is the point adding some won mathes to random place to fix up numbers? You just broke reliable stat (2006 year) in order to fix up unreliable stat (carrier win/loss)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.238.64.156 (talk) 13:01, June 7, 2007

Timline links to individual Slam championship results

Hi,

Why have you reverted my carefully created timeline links to other championships? And without constructive or authorative comment or explanation?

How else can the interested reader quickly see who a player lost to in the 2nd round of the 2003 Wimbledon? Accessing the individual championship results is not an easy or syntactically obvious process. These links made it so fast, easy and intuitive that readers could start to identify patterns.

None of the results were changed. No data is impacted. There is no impact on the screen except for the link colouring. There is also no impact on future editing as both of the updaters of Henin and Ivanovic simple took it on nboard and followed the format. Autodidactyl 08:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

PS - You can reply here, I have put this page on my watchlist.Autodidactyl 08:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

This has been talked about on the tennis project discussion page, and there is no consensus in favor of making the changes you favor. My point about editing has nothing to do with the screen appearance. These tables were difficult to edit as they already were and making them more complicated only invites additional errors in an already error-prone task (and also makes the editing more time-consuming). Tennis expert 05:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Jausovec, etc

Hi. Could you explain me why did you revert Jausovec nationality to Slovenian, when all hers' results are from period while she was a citizen of Yugoslavia (Slovenia being independent from 1991), as Monika Seles, for example. Thank you.--Jdjerich 09:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Rafael Nadal

Would you please give Rafael Nadal a once over. It received heavy editing today by unregistered users and may benefit from a good review. Thanks. -- Jreferee (Talk) 07:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Association of Tennis Professionals

Hello wikipedian friend :)

We need an expert for this article : Association of Tennis Professionals may you do something ?

Have a good day/night ;) Mrpouetpouet 23:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

2005 Tennis Masters Cup Surface

Hi! I just would like to point out that the surface used for the 2005 Tennis Masters Cup was Indoor Carpet, and not Indoor Hard, as per the ATP website. However, as in the article for Roger Federer, the surface used was Indoor Hard, and hence, this might affect the tally of his win-loss record. Same goes for the other participants of that edition. I kept on correcting this error in surface used way back in 2005 (as the tournament progressed--see here), however, the changes I made were constantly being reverted back by most editors--quite a pity that they don't even take the time to check out references to establish this fact. Hope you can help out in addressing this. Joey80 01:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Hingis

I would bring the Hingis edit warring to 3RR and apply for a 24-hour block against Batwhatsitsname. Disruptive editing w/out attempting to determine consensus is not acceptable. I have posted to his page to take the issue to the Talk page. I'll revert back as well, but this should be redressed through admin action. (Complete protection is also a possibility given the editing patterns spawned by the cocaine relevations.) Eusebeus 00:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Titles

It seems that you keep changing the Titles charts in order to put the name of the country. Isn't that what the flag was for? Just wondering, because I think it just clutters it up. -Tennisace101

Name of U.S. Open

Why are you reverting the updates made to the links for the US Open on the Martina Hingis article? --203.220.170.250 (talk) 13:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Because your edits are against consensus. This is an issue that the regular tennis editors have talked about already. Tennis expert (talk) 13:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I thought consensus was made on US Open (tennis) with no stops. Could you direct me to where this is different, and why the organisation itself uses no stops in its name (see here), and why we should go against the official title of the slam? --203.220.170.250 (talk) 14:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
You thought wrong. You have been trying for months to change "U.S. Open" to "US Open" without bothering to obtain consensus first for this radical change. And the person who went ahead and changed the name of the article did so unilaterally, without discussing it first. This was a mistake that needs to be reverted. Tennis expert (talk) 14:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Trying for months? I've just come to this issue. Looking through the histories it seems that it's you who is going against consensus, which was made months ago, see here when a consensus was reached. --203.220.170.250 (talk) 14:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Doubtful that you are as new to this issue as you are representing. Back in October, IP users 203.220.170.52 and 203.220.170.75 attempted to make the "US Open" sweeping change in several articles without first getting consensus for it. Those IP addresses are sufficiently close to yours to raise doubts about your newness claim. In any event, there was no consensus reached at the link you provided, as evidenced there and in hundreds of subsequent tennis-related Wikipedia edits where "U.S. Open" was used. The mere fact that one person attempted to summarize the discussion by saying that a "final decision" had been reached does not mean that, in fact, a consensus was reached. You should note that dantheox agreed with my suggestion that before the sweeping change was made, the official name of the tournament should be nailed down. That has not yet been done. Tennis expert (talk) 15:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, yeah, I forgot I had participated then, sorry memory, but I was only reverting the sweeping changes that Fleminra had made against consensus. Now if you want it changed to include the stops, present a case for WP:RM, because this is probably the only way to solve this controversial move. Now, please leave the contents alone as it looks very unprofessional with the title not using stops and the article contents using stops. --203.220.170.250 (talk) 15:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
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