Talk:Tennin

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[edit] Merger with Apsara

I'm reading History of Japanese Art, 2nd ed. by Penelope Mason. In describing Japanese Buddhist imagery, she repeatedly refers to Apsaras and then gives the Japanese translation as tennin. Now, I know very little about Japanese Buddhism. But if Mason is correct, then it makes sense to ]]. Japan and India are far apart, but a discussion of the same being as interpreted by different cultures in the same article seems like a good thing, not a bad one. Does anyone have any more info on whether Apsaras and Tennin are in fact the same being? — BrianSmithson 14:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. MikeDockery 14:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd feel better about any merge if someone could point to another source, though. I can't help but feeling that Mason may be mistaken. She probably isn't, but corroboration would be good. :) — BrianSmithson 16:18, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree that Mason may be incorrect about this. The tennyo/tennin have much different aspects in many cases, as well as all of the regional names throughout Japan (tenshi, tennosukai, and of course, mitsukai). I think they're related more to the shamanistic aspects of Shinto, but I'm going to have to do some source hunting to confirm that.--み使い Mitsukai 06:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


I wouldn't merge if I were you. I would talk about the similarities or common origins, etc. but keep the separate. Kind of like Jesus and Isa. I think it would be cumbersome if we became too mergist on this... it would also make it difficult to categorize. gren グレン 20:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

At this point, there's not a whole lot in either apsara or tennin, so I don't think it's an issue. If you look at Jesus, you'll see that there is discussion of Isa, and that the Isa article is broken off per the guidelines at Wikipedia:Summary Style. In other words, if apsara and tennin are the same thing, we can merge now and split later should there be enough information to warrant doing so. Then apsara (the home article) would get a small section on tennin with the {{main|tennin}} template. As for categorization, it's no biggie. Just place it in both Category:Japanese legendary creatures, Category:Indian legendary creatures or wherever else it needs to go. — BrianSmithson 21:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
It's Category:Hindu legendary creatures not Category:Indian legendary creatures--Dangerous-Boy 22:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Ah, thanks. — BrianSmithson 23:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It's missing Buddhism and Shintoism in that categorization scheme. 70.51.9.9 11:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The categories from this page would follow it over there, certainly. I'm not sure why you added the "merge disputed" tag to the page. Do you have hard evidence one way or another that this isn't just a Japanese version of the apsara? — BrianSmithson 17:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't merge. The average Hindu has never heard of tennin! It would be like combining angels and devas.

Thanks, Raj2004 03:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not a question of whether they've heard the word. It's a question of whether the name "tennin" is just the Japanese word for "apsara". I mean, we don't have two articles for football and soccer. — BrianSmithson 04:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, football and soccer are two different articles. 24.14.198.8 04:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC) Chris G.

No. It still shouldn't be ,merged. Many can argue that deva is simply a Sanskrit term for an angel. Does that mean it should be merged? No. Apples and oranges should not be lumped together.

Even the article on Jibril, the Islamic name for the archangel Gabriel is not merged. The average Christian would not know that Jibril is the Islamic name for the angel Gabriel.

Thanks.

Raj2004 13:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the feedback. I'm still hoping someone with an authoritative print reference will come forward. (In my opinion, Jibril and Gabriel should not be two separate articles.) — BrianSmithson 15:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Through the cultural connotations, the two have different meaning. Angels are not the same as muses. Tennin are not the same as Apsara. Therefore, merging would be degrading and extremely confusing. JulianaMyth

Why? It would be analogous to Buddha having several different articles simply because he's worshipped in different cultural contexts. — BrianSmithson 02:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Did the tenin transfer over from the Lotus Sutra or Sutra of Golden light? --Dangerous-Boy 18:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Please see the following:

I would suggest that they should not be merged. Regards. --Bhadani 09:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I've investigated the matter using Google Books, and here are my findings:
  • Most sources simply call tennin "Buddhist angels", "Buddhist fairies", or "celestial beings". The majority of these mention the beings only in passing.
  • Christal Wheelan in The Beginning of Heaven and Earth: The Sacred Book of Japan's Hidden Christians (1996) says that the tennin "derive from the Buddist devas—female deities of India."
  • James Hall in Illustrated Dictionary of Symbols in Eastern and Western Art (1994) says "Hindu myth has . . . the apsarases . . . . They were adopted, perhaps suprisingly, by Mahayana Buddhism as the attendants of Buddhas and bodhisattvas. The apsaras in China (t'ien-jen) and Japan (tennin) has wings and may hold a lotus flower."
  • H. Inada, Albert J. Jalbert, and Jame Koop in Japanese Names and How to Read Them: A Manual for Art Collectors and Students (1996) says, "tennin, tennio, amatsuotome (the Apsara or Bud. 'angels', who wear the ama-no-hagaromo or feather cloak".
  • An Official Guide to Eastern Asia: Trans-Continental Connections between Europe and Asia, vol. II: South-western Japan (1917) says, "Tennin (Sanskrit Apsaras), Buddhist angels always represented as beautiful females playing on musical instruments; generally regarded as wife of Gandharva, god of music."
  • John Renard, in 101 Questions and Answers on Confucianism, Daoism, and Shinto, says, "Perhaps the closest formal analogy to the angel in Shinto tradition are the tennin, the Japanese version of Buddhism's celestial nymphs called apsaras."
So, as you can see, I did not make this up. The tennin seem at the very least to be derived from the apsaras (Wheelan notwithstanding). Your main argument against them being the same is that your Hindu sources do not mention the connection. Well, absence of proof is not proof of absence. — BrianSmithson 13:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Are there any sources (Western or Eastern) that mention both apsaras and tennin with their own descriptions? To put it another way, do any sources say different than the ones you have listed? I would think that those, if they exist, should be just as important in deciding a merge. I'd like to see some sources by Asian authors (in English or another language), too. 24.14.198.8 04:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC) Chris G.

[edit] Tennin/Tennyo

Just merged tennyo into this article. — BrianSmithson 19:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)