Talk:Ten Essentials

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Uh oh. Discovered the "Scout outdoor essentials" after a lot of work. It looks like they are an older list, maybe the original published items. Should these articles be merged? At least linked? —EncMstr 21:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

They are different (but related), I think. I've heard that they originated with the Mountaineers organization (see, e.g., [1]). -- hike395 11:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Thanks, hike395, for cleaning up my work. Alas, I tired toward the end.

1970 was about the time I first heard of clean water as an issue. I don't have a reference, but maybe can dig something up. In 1973 while backpacking I asked some 30+ year veterans of backpacking about the wisdom of drinking water straight from a lake (dunking #10 cans) to drink and cook. They mentioned they gave it little thought until recently because of the then arising environmental movement. This was the Pacific Northwest: maybe less pristine places had earlier use of filtering? —EncMstr 05:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The real risk with untreated water is diseases such as giardia: in the 1960s and 1970s, when backpacking and outdoor recreation became much more popular, various parasite and bacterial diseases spread into previously clean water sources. --Carnildo 03:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

A big difference is drinking from a lake or a stream, as still water (the side of a lake) is more likely to contain diseases. DirkvdM 17:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? I'd read that pathogens, especially cysts, are more likely to settle out in still water. -Will Beback 20:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Food before water 2 sunscreen? 3 Cooking pot 4 Tent, sleeping bag, mattress 5 New article or new name 6 Article based on sources?

[edit] Food before water

Why is "extra food" more essential than extra water? --Liface 22:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Because water is easier to find than food. Rain, lakes, rivers, springs: except in arid places, obviously. Another list of essentials for the desert has water first. EncMstr 23:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sunscreen?

I have hiked through all sorts of terrain and never brought along sunscreen. For those who are not used to being outside it might be pleasant, but even for them I wouldn't consider it an essential (not in the way that food and a compass are potential life savers). The same goes (to a lesser degree) for sunglasses - I have brought some along occasionally, but never used them. They are only essential under very specific circumstances (desert or snow). DirkvdM 17:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I once hiked with a Scottish lass in the Oregon mountains. For her, sunscreen is more important than food. Food she could go without for hours. The hike was a disaster, though I suppose we could have waited for sunset before proceeding.

I didn't own sunscreen nor sunglasses (well, except in my pilot kit, for flying into the sun), and mostly agree that they seem far from essential, even on snow—for myself. Due to my attraction (and subsequent liklihood of hiking with them) to fair skinned women, I now carry sunscreen. — EncMstr 18:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Sunscreen is not an essential because it is not a life-or-death item. I've moved it (and some other items not on the list of ten) down to the "others" section. -Will Beback 20:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Severe sunburn can be a life-or-death situation: second-degree burns over 40% of one's body are no laughing matter, and are quite possible if you're hiking in full sunlight for a whole day. --Carnildo 09:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Good sense is also an essential. -Will Beback 18:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sunscreen and sunglasses can be essential under certain circumstances, such as mountaineering, and/or for specific people, such as those with little pigment who rarely go outside (I am fairhaired and blue eyed, though, and never needed either). But the same goes for all sorts of equipment. I don't see how they are essential. Of course, if the article is named after a specific list, then that list should be given. Any comments can be given further down. Same for 'other ten essentials', for which there already is a section. DirkvdM 09:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The original "Ten Essentials" is the Seattle Mountaineers' list of ten items that everyone involved in outdoor recreation should have with them. This list is copied verbatim or with minor modifications for local conditions by most other outdoors clubs, and is referred to as the "ten essentials". This list is the one quoted in the third paragraph of the article. --Carnildo 10:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cooking pot

i once heard that the two essentials for anyone going wild are a machete and a cooking pot. Anything else can be improvised, but not these two (well, there is a way to improvise a cooking pot by weaving grass, but that requires skill). I added the machete, but I am really suprised the cooking pot is not mentioned in the article. DirkvdM 17:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I just gnaw on trees and bushes. No machete and no pot needed.  :-) — EncMstr 18:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tent, sleeping bag, mattress

Depending on the facilities where one is going, a tent and mattress might not be necessary (but then, the same goes for water (treatment) and especially for sunscreen). But one thing one almost allways needs is a sleeping bag. So why is that on the list? I have added it at the end, but why is it not on the list? DirkvdM 18:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Because to survive, a sleeping bag isn't necessary. Heavily depending on circumstances, it might be better to keep moving, improvise a shelter, or just lay on the ground, as in warm environment. For winter camping, a sleeping bag is much more important, though I would expect winter outdoorsman to have enough clothing that a sleeping bag would be more of a convenience than a necessity. — EncMstr 18:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This list is intended for all travel in the backcountry, not just overnight travel. Very few people carry sleeping bags and tents on day hikes. "Extra clothing" should be calibrated to include enough clothing to be able to survive an night out, albeit without comfort. -Will Beback 20:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

My daypack contains everything I need to spend one night outdoors. It does not contain a sleeping bag: that two pounds is better served as a sweater, a warm hat, a space blanket, and extra food. --Carnildo 09:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the article should be a bit clearer about what it is about. For example, I don't even think about dayhikes when I read something like this. That is for 'tourists' (excuse the condescending tone of my voice when I say that :) ). But the list is for items that are essential for dealing with emergencies and even dayhikers can be confronted with those (actually, they are most at risk because they are more often ill-prepared). I notice I didn't finish my sentence in the article. I meant to say something like "... a sleeping bag, or at least a bivvy bag, which can be just a big plastic bag in which one person fits." But let me continue under a new section below .... DirkvdM 10:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New article or new name

This article is about a specific list, but there doesn't seem to be a general article on hiking equipment. I suggest starting that article and either incorporating this article in it or keeping this article restricted to the list mentioned in Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills (or possibly moving it there) and for the rest just link to the new article (and vice versa of course). DirkvdM 10:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I can be very impatient, so I've already started the article. DirkvdM 15:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I now think that the best idea might be to merge the list itself into the Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills article and the rest into the hiking equipment article, after which this article can become a redirect to the former (or possibly the latter?). And of course the two articles should then link to each other. DirkvdM 15:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I think hiking equipment can be a legitimate Wikipedia list, but I believe that the Ten Essentials should be distinct from a list of hiking equipment, and from the Mountaineering book.. Several groups have proposed the Ten Essentials, it has its own history separate from the the Mountaineering book (including the NOLS and the Boy Scouts). There is a reasonable literature outside of Wikipedia that references the Ten Essentials, so it wouldn't be vulnerable to being original research hike395 19:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article based on sources?

"In most circumstances, the Ten Essentials will transform a potentially life threatening experience into a mere discomfort."

Cool. So, if I fall off a cliff and die, carrying the ten essentials would transform this into merely discomfort?

There are many, many unsupported, un-cited, un-sourced statements in this article, many ludicrous like the one above. Wikipedia is based on information that is published - and this article should be also. Those who are interested in working on this article, may I suggest that re-writing it based on citable sources (and what those sources say) would be a contribution to Wikipedia. (I am removing the above statement). Ratagonia (talk) 14:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Falling off a cliff and dying is a not "a potentially life threatening experience". Falling and getting injured is, and having a first aid kit may help prevent death. But your overall point is correct. We should be careful to stay close to what sources say and avoid unfounded assertions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)