Talk:Tempo

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I believe that the statement "this period was when tempo indications were used extensively for the first time" needs to be cited. If someone can find a source for this, please add it. B McLean 16:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Isn't adagio go after largo?

I'm going to link and integrate all the tempo marking stubs (allegro, largo, etc.) to here, as Camembert suggested on Talk:List of musical topics. They're all basically the same and probably won't get bigger. I'll redirect the ones without any other info on them, but leave allegro, presto, and any others that have unrelated info. -- Merphant 10:56 Nov 25, 2002 (UTC)

good idea. Unlink the names on this page though, since they're now self-links -- Tarquin

Done. Now I'm going to redirect ritardando and accelerando here as well. -- Merphant 10:14 Nov 28, 2002 (UTC)

I have added redirects for terms such as Allegro which need links that can be used in musical articles that do not go to a disambig page. I am going around and making all links to musical tempo words look the same (ie, "[[Allegro (music)|]]" and not "[[Tempo|Allegro]]") though it is not clear why it matters to me... - Marvin01 | talk 16:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

  • These are forms for redirection that I am using. Most of these are pre-existing:
Largo Adagio Lento Andante Moderato Allegretto Allegro Presto Andantino Larghetto Adagietto Larghissimo Prestissimo Accelerando Rallentando Ritardando Ritenuto Langsam Mäßig Lebhaft Rasch Schnell
    • Lento links to the French commune. Can we get the Lento (music) redirect back? I find these to be helpful in music articles. And really they should deep-link to this page's section on Italian terms. Even better would be a page (not a stub) for each term, using a template that lists its bpm and where it lies in this sequence. Those pages wouldn't be real big or deep, but they'd more useful in discussions of specific musical pieces. -- Jeff Worthington 16:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

What about the "mood markings" Vivace and Maestoso? They also have microscopic articles which add nothing to what is stated in this article. Unless anyone has any brilliant new insights to add to the articles, we should probably redirect those. Foxmulder 16:38, 5 August 2005 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] How did composers define these terms in beats per minute?

The previous editor sensibly asks for examples of how the various terms pan out as actual metronome markings in compositions. I started trying to implement this, using the case of Beethoven, but quickly got into trouble! Here is the wastebasket material I decided not to put in:

===Using the metronome: the case of Beethoven===
Ludwig van Beethoven was an enthusiast for the early metronome, and placed metronome markings on a number of his later works. Here are some examples:
  • The first movement of the "Hammerklavier" piano sonata is in cut time, with a half note (minim) taking the beat. Beethoven labels the movement Allegro and specifies 138 BPM.
  • The "military march" portion of the last movement of the Ninth Symphony is marked by Beethoven as allegro assai vivace "fast and very lively", with a metronome mark specifying 84 quarter notes (crotchets) per minute.
Alas, neither of these examples is particularly illuminating, since neither has been popular with musicians. Most pianists would consider the Hammerklavier at this tempo to sound frantically rushed, making it impossible to give appropriate weight to this imposing work. The Ninth Symphony mark is widely felt to be slow and plodding--by including the metronome mark as well as "assai vivace", Beethoven is felt to have created an impossibility, since the movement simply will not sound very lively at this tempo. One possibility often considered is that the deaf and aging Beethoven, despite his stupendous compositional talents, was simply not an effective metronome user.

By the time I reached this point, it seemed clear that I was writing about Beethoven and not about adagio, allegro, etc.

Could someone else perhaps give this a try, using a composer who doesn't give rise to such vexed problems? Or is Beethoven par for the course? Opus33 18:37, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Anton Webern described his pieces as being two to three times longer than his meticulous metronome markings would indicate. Hyacinth 23:10, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Speaking as a composer, I advise that you never, ever take meticulously precise expressive markings in a piece at face value. Interpretation is simply too slippery. I will carefully notate tempo and dynamic markings in a piece, only to find myself endlessly re-notating them as I learn it -- and then hearing in the recording that I am playing yet something else different. These subjective indications like "Allegro" are intetionally ambiguous; their ambiguity is a virtue, not a flaw. The article is right not to nail them down. !melquiades 06:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

@opus33: I think Beethoven did not use the expression 'BPM' but he meant: 'M.M.' (i.e. Mälzel's Metronome mark). Greetz, DTB (talk) 22:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Anton Webern described his pieces as being two to three times longer than his meticulous metronome markings would indicate.":

As I understood this, Webern described his pieces as significantly longer in duration than they were even after hearing them. The conventional explanation has nothing to do with metronome markings. It's that Webern's music is pithy, knotty even, that his pieces had as much substance as works many times longer and Webern habitually and understandably confused substance with duration. 24.183.105.207 (talk) 08:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: "Speaking as a composer, I advise that you never, ever take meticulously precise expressive markings in a piece at face value. Interpretation is simply too slippery. I will carefully notate tempo and dynamic markings in a piece, only to find myself endlessly re-notating them as I learn it -- and then hearing in the recording that I am playing yet something else different.":
This is your subjective problem. If you want us never, ever to take your metronome markings at face value, fine, but you are doing a grave disservice to other composers by asking performers to disregard what they may very well consider as significant and inviolable a part of their pieces as their notes.
The art of metronome marking needs to be mastered as much as any other art, and your failure to master it does not entitle you to disparage it. Composers who have no specific tempo in mind or for whom a specific tempo is a matter of indifference should not use metronome markings or else indicate clearly in some fashion that their metronome markings are only approximate. Where an unequivocal and precise metronome marking is supplied by the composer, performers should follow it to the best of their reasonable ability. 24.183.105.207 (talk) 08:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speaking of Webern

Less known than the Barber but possibly a better example, the Langsamer Satz (for quartet or orchestra,) since the Barber at least started as an adagio movement of a larger piece...
Some composers used one tempo for a movement heading and another for the tempo of the movement proper, which almost falls under the category of psychology and habit. (Hrm, this is a slow movement I'm writing, an adagio. But the tempo I'm going to give it is andante.* So Adagio centered on top in large font, andante above the score and parts to the left. Even odder, from a music history point of view, adding that andante's meaning has also generalized, since it's no longer applied only to movements with walking basses.)
* Anton Rubinstein, symphony no. 3 in A. Probably Bruckner etc. too, sometimes. Schissel 23:33, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lento

Musical term for a slow tempo often described as 'dragging'. Dragging is usually an undiserable effect, since it tends to suck the energy from a performance. Because of its negative connotation, lento (nor its equivalents in other languages) isn't often used as tempo indications in scores, Mahler being a notable exception: as part of a tempo indication he used schleppend (being the German word for dragging) in the first movement of his 1st symphony ("Titan"), for example.

I've made Lento a redirect. The material (above) would need an overhaul (expecially with regard to grammar), but could it be fitted into the Tempo article? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:07, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Often described as" are weasel words. "Lento" means "slow," quite literally, and there's no reason to put any other connotation on it here, although of course performers do so often for individual pieces. "Schleppend" doesn't mean the same thing; Mahler chose that word deliberately, and "Lento" wouldn't have done, because it doesn't mean that. --Wahoofive 16:54, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] allargando

In under which header would the term allargando be in? It means broadening, slowing down and becoming more louder at the same time.

[edit] allegro molto moderato

Currently the page is missing a discussion of allegro molto moderato. It's quite common, so I'd really like to see a definition here. It's very confusing to me, because it seems contradictory: allegro means fast and molto moderato means very moderate, which sounds rather slow. So, what is it? Slow or fast? --345Kai 01:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way, molto moderato is not slow. It signifies a strict moderate tempo, instead of a general idea of moderate speed that moderato is. I do not see why this term would be used. It is much too confusing.

I don't really understand the confusion over the term. Although I can't immediately think of a piece with this tempo marking, I understand the term Allegro molto moderato as meaning something like "very moderate allegro", i.e. Not too much allegro but not too little either. --Todeswalzer|Talk 20:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prestissimo

Can anyone give me an example of a piece of music noted as "prestissimo"? --Steerpike 15:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

A whole movement? For a section, see the coda to the Waldstein sonata of Beethoven (starting page 398 of the Dover score published in 1975, ISBN 0-486-23135-6. It is sometimes used as the tempo of an entire movement, however, as with the finale of a Joseph Haydn piano sonata (labeled no. 39 in the - again Dover - edition) in G major, apparently dating from before 1780 (pp. 89-93 of volume II, ISBN 0-486-24727-9, released 1984.) A less well-known example is the "Finale all saltarella: Prestissimo" movement (in E minor) that concludes Charles-Valentin Alkan's sonata for cello and piano, to give three then (out of quite a few.)

Probably more common as a contrasting (central or concluding, often) section of a movement than as a movement tempo itself though. Schissel | Sound the Note! 01:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

One of Smetana's Czech dances, the "Dupák" or "stamping dance" is marked "prestissimo." At the end, Smetana indicates an "accelerando"! Schumann did the same thing in his g minor sonata in both first and last movements! (The first movement uses the German equivalent ("So rasch wie möglich") (as fast as possible) and at the end directs "schneller" (faster) and "noch scneller" (still faster) and the last, marked "prestissimo" similarly ends "immer schneller und schneller")(ever faster and faster)!!!)
38.117.238.82 04:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Yep. Because the key word is 'possible'. The way the notes are laid out, a pianist can't play as quickly at the beginning as at the end. The writing in the coda is, I gather, just slightly easier to negotiate at a faster speed- fewer cliffs, anyway. Not easy- just easier. Hence it's possible to play it faster than it was possible to play the opening: no pair of ducks. :) So did a music (not piano- I'm no pianist, nor do I play on teevee) teacher explain this to me... Schissel | Sound the Note! 04:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vivace

"Vivace" is currently listed under both "Basic tempo markings" and "Mood markings with a tempo connotation." Well, which is it? I say the first: it is a tempo marking with a mood connotation, not the reverse, and should be removed from the second section. Any disagreement? !melquiades 06:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

All tempo markings were originally "mood markings with a tempo connotation." This is a distinction without a difference. —Wahoofive (talk) 17:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Etymology is not current meaning; the distinction is not at all meaningless (and is rightly reflected in the organization of the page). Consider: "Allegro" originally meant "happy," but that meaning is now largely lost: it's quite easy to find pieces marked "Allegro" which are not at all happy (e.g. Chopin etudes Op 10 No 12, or Op 25 Nos 10-12). The primary meaning of "Allegro" is now "fast;" it is a tempo marking, which has a very arguable emotional connotation. On the other hand, "Maestoso" and "Sostenuto" belong where they are: they do not have any clear tempo denotation, but might imply a tempo if used alone. I claim "Vivace" is now primarily a tempo marking, like "Allegro." !melquiades 21:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.meanspeed.com offers lists of speeds and emotional correlates that fill this page out. In fact, metronome markings are predictive of emotional expression.

Ian Schneider Meanspeed Music Trust meanspeed@gmail.com

[edit] Rallantando

I'm pretty sure it's rallantando, not rallentando. ~ EdBoy[c] 22:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It's rallentando. —Wahoofive (talk) 01:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Proposal

I looked up "inch" and "distance," and they each have their own Wikipedia entry. I don't understand the rationale for merging the two. If we did this, then it should follow that all specific units of measurement that have entries on Wikipedia should be merged with their respective general phenomena being measured. Right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaxelrod (talk • contribs) 03:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the expression 'BPM' is not used as such in classical music, and metronome marks and tempo indications like allegro, andante etc. are not used in that way in several popular genres. Please do not merge. Maybe a -see also- on both pages is enough. Just my 2 cents. DTB (talk) 22:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Proposal

I personally think that BPM shouldn't be merged with Tempo, it should be merged with beat; because BPM is a phenomenon inside Beat. Maybe you could also merge Tempo with Beat and create a complete article about BEAT, because these three concepts are similar. Carmaster 03:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Merge Proposal

I think you shouldn't merge the BPM with the tempi, because they're not the same thing. BPM says something about the speed of the movement and the tempo tells you more about the mood of the piece/movement. For instance Allegro means happy, and has nothing to do with "fast". Usually allegri are played fast, but it's not necessary. Vivace means lively and lento means broad. Lenti are mostly played slow, but it doesn't have to be that way. Beethoven and Mozart for sure never wrote BPM's or MM's or whatever you want to name it. Musicians will decide the BPM for themselves. The composer just indicates whether you have to play it lively, or sad, or happy, etc. Allegro, Presto, Adagio, Lento, etc. are just italian words. You can look them up in a dictionary. But hey, that's just the humble opinion of a musician who is still studying at the conservatory... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.51.102.91 (talk) 00:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Allegro doesn't mean "happy" -- it merely means quickly. Consider, for example, the first movement of Beethoven's Pathétique piano sonata: the exposition is marked Allegro di molto e con brio, but the pervading mood of the piece certainly isn't one of happiness (as the title would indicate). Also, Beethoven did use BPM markings in a few of his pieces. (In fact, it was a friend of his who first patented the metronome and began selling them.) It is true, however, that tempo markings do generally provide a better indication of the mood of a piece of music than mere beats per minute (such as the con brio marking in my previous example, or the Grave introduction), and for that reason they aren't quite the same thing. Thus, I would also recommend not merging the articles. --Todeswalzer|Talk 00:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, Allegro does mean happy. Composers standarized it to just make it mean 'quick'. It's probably because music started as an entertainment activity, not an artistic one.

Deafussy 20:01, 23 May 2008

"Beats per minute" is never properly indicated on music. Instead we always have some actual note value per minute, quarter notes, eighth notes, and so on. "Beats per minute" is not a legitimate musical subject, and no such article should appear anywhere in Wikipedia, whether merged with this one or not. 24.183.105.207 (talk) 08:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moderato con esspressivo

In first place, I think 'esspressivo' should go to the Glossary of musical terminology or, at least, to the Mood markings. If we start adding expression to the tempo markings, the list would be endless. The other thing that bothers me about it is that if it's correct. I don't speak italian, but spanish, and it sounds a bit weird. --Deafussy 17:25, 23 May 2005

It's actually espressivo, not esspressivo. 24.183.105.207 (talk) 08:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)