User talk:Telzer/Archive 1

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Welcome!

Hello, Telzer/Archive 1, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!

And a Gut Yomtov of course. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Eliezer Levy

Can you write a wiki article abou Rabbi Eliezer "Lazer" Levy, the retired menahel of one of the Telz Yeshivas in America? He sepnt this past winter by his son-in-law in Los Angeles, who is the menahel of the Yeshiva's high school, so he gave us some powerful [[mussar] speeches on friday afternoons. I'd like to more about him, and I think he deserves a place in the world's free encyclopedia. --רח"ק | Talk 04:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Rabbi Elozor Levi

Rachack, Thanks for the message about Rabbi Levi. I can certainly do an article about Rabbi Levi, but it may be some time until it goes up online. In the interim, if there's anything you want to know about him, please feel free to drop me a line. He is, indeed, a fantastic personality with a great sense of humor.

P.S. Just remember to sign off with the four tildes (~). It took me a little to find out who sent me the original message!

All the best,

Telzer 09:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it was Erev Shabbos and I was in a rush. My Rav, Zvi Block is also a Talmid of him from Telz. His (my Rav's) wiki-article was recently deleted, something about not being notable enough or something. --רח"ק | Talk 04:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Son of the Chofetz Chaim?

Hi Telzer, take a look at this. I found this short biography of this Rov in the 1961 edition of the American Jewish Yearbook in the obituaries section (it's all online). I have a strong hunch that he was related in some way to the Chofetz Chaim. This is because:

His surname was "Poupko" - the same as the Chofetz Chaim
He was born in Radin

He also received positions in the Agudas HaRabbonim. If you know anything or can investigate his link with the Chofetz Chaim, I'd be grateful. Many thanks, Nesher 11:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for the help! Also, note that his son was Reuven - maybe when you ask around see what you know about this name. Many thanks, Nesher 13:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reb Itzele Peterberger

Hi Telzer, how do you know that Rabbi Yitzchok Blazer (Reb Itzele Peterberger) is the same as Rabbi Yitzchok Yaakov Rabinowitz (Reb Itzele Ponovezher)? Please explain. Many thanks, Nesher 12:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer

Hi Telzer, in the article on Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer you added "In 1897 Rabbi Meltzer left Slabodka to lead another yeshiva which had been established by Rabbi Nosson Zvi Finkel in Slutsk." Do you have a Mekor for the fact that Rav Finkel established a Yeshiva in Slutsk? It doesnt say in the article about Rav Finkel anything about Slutsk, only that he established the Slabodka Yeshiva. Are you sure that it wasnt Rav Meltzer that founded Slutsk Yeshiva?..

Beacause it says here [1] that "After a while HaRav Shach joined HaRav Isser Zalman Meltzer zt"l who had founded a yeshiva in Slutsk in 5657 (1897)." Many thanks, Nesher 19:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yasher Koach :) Nesher 10:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Haredi"

Hi Telzer, I've long been against any categorisation of Rabbonim based on what people think of how "Frum" they are. I'm against calling Rabbi X "Modern Orthodox", Rabbi Y "Haredi" etc etc. Who are we to judge them? I believe this is detrimental to the Achdus of Klal Yisroel and detracts from the Ikkar - to just be a good Jew. So yes, I'm against these categories. Shuki and I recently put up the Haredi, Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist Orthodox categories for deletion. There was a vote, and unfortunately all stayed. Telzer, where were you! If you had voted, the situation could have been different - we only lost by a few votes. Still, the majority ruled and so at the moment nothing can be done.

PS: I believe the term "Haredi" wasn't around 20/30 years ago. I dislike when both the non-frum and the frum use that term. I cringe whenever I read the Hamodia - the frum newspaper - and the writer states "Witness the remarakable growth of the Chareidim in the USA and Israel over the last 50 years" etc etc. That is true (Baruch Hashem that Orthodox Yiddishkeit is on the rise) - but why use the term Charedi? It's like saying "them.... and us. Many thanks, Nesher 13:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi: It doesn't matter what was or "wasn't around 20/30 years ago" because we are dealing with the-here-and-now. For the sake of the record, there were very serious discussions a few times over the years at Wikipedia when the term "Ultra-Orthodox" was first used by some editors. It was decided that people who are themselves "Ultra-Orthodox" by this definition ALL agree that the term "ultra-Orthodox" was OFFENSIVE since it was used mostly in a negative connotation by the media and that the best choice that finds general agreement and acceptance is "Haredi". No need to "cringe" -- it's something to be proud of if you are truly Haredi! That is the reason that there is NO article about "Ultra Orthodox Judaism" on Wikipedia (and the term is removed on sight) since the current accepted term is Haredi Judaism. If you will look at that article and its talk pages one can find a record of all these past discussions. It is pointless to refrain from using the term "Haredi" because that is the term that has come into common usage and is accepted almost universally by all Haredi Jews themselves, so for User:Nesher to come along with "complaints" about the term and how it does or does not apply to rabbis and others is both NOT accurate at best, and highly misleading at worst. The term Orthodox Judaism is valid but it is far too broad in the age we live in when, B"H, the varieties of Orthodox Jews have flourished and grown so that calling them and their rabbis by their correct sub-category names is TRUE and CORRECT by any standard. Thus there are articles about Modern Orthodox Judaism, the Religious Zionist Movement, Hasidic Judaism, and of it's great sub-division Hasidic Judaism -- and there are categries for the rabbis that are clearly IDENTIFIED with them. All very encyclopedic and designed to create clarity and avoid confusion. IZAK 07:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the lengthy piece Izak. I certainly understand where you are coming from, nevertheless, this still leaves us with an academic problem. You see, you wish to define "Hareidi Rabbis" as those who are "clearly IDENTIFIED with them". While in today's day and age, this may be a possibility with certain individuals, what about historically, say pre-holocaust? Who decides who was "Hareidi" or not? Is it based on their beard size? Hat size? Perhaps their teachings being subsequently adopted by "Hareidi" Jews? What if they were really "Hareidi" but their teachings were adopted by Modern Orthodox Jews? Where would that put them? Splitting hairs like this can be problematic. While we understand where you are coming from, we feel it would be academically better to simply leave all Orthodox Rabbis under the one category. Please educate us as to the precise litmus test or yardstick used by which to define someone as "Hareidi". I wouldn't know as I'm just a simple Jew. Telzer 07:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Telzer: Sorry no, the time has long past when all types of Orthodox rabbis can be squeezed into one category. This is NOT about "splitting hairs" (of rabbis beards?), but rather of placing the rabbis in their true categories on Wikipedia (see my comments below). Only in cases where there is severe doubt should a rabbi be placed in the general super-category of Category:Orthodox rabbis, otherwise it is perfectly legitimate and now necessary, due to the grwoth of the Orthodox rabbis list and also for accuracy and educational purposes to place Orthodox rabbis in as accurate sub-categries as humanly possible -- and it is possible. For example, there is no debate who belongs in Category:Hasidic rebbes and similarly there should also be absolutely no doubt who belongs in Category:Rosh yeshivas. As for your comments about judging rabbis by their beards or hats I relegate such comments to the trashcan because they are unworthy of the serious discussion we are having here about such a weighty topic. While anyone, not just Modern Orthodox Jews, can buy seforim -- even Catholic priests buy and study ArtScroll Gemoras -- it does mean that ergo the rabbis of the Talmud therefore turn into Catholic saints merely because Catholics are studying their works! From what you say it's actually the reverse, almost ALL rabbis in pre-Holocaust Europe, as well as all the Sephardi sages, can be classified by what is known as "Haredi" today and it is in fact the Modern Orthodox community and even the Conservative rabbis who have "hijacked" whatever they like from the writings of Europe's Hasidic rebbes and rosh yeshivas for their own purposes and self-justifications (not that they need them) in order to create "modern" types of "up-to-the-minute politically correct Judaism" something which those old rabbis and Haredi Jews and Judaism NEVER did and do not do! Yet, in some cases, when dealing with certain Orthodox rabbis who were controversial in their lifetimes and remain so to the present that they can safely be "only" Orthodox rabbis. And by the way, the word "Orthodox" is just an English-Greek term that has absolutely no basis or foundation or application in the history of Judaism. It is only when Reform began that they tagged the rest of Jewry (whom we would call Haredi in today's parlance) as Orthodox and then of course came that killer-term "Ultra-Orthodox" when Modern Orthodoxy developed. Finally, no-one is going to confuse Rabbi Shlomo Riskin and Rabbi Norman Lamm with Rabbi Aaron Kotler or Rabbi Yisrael Salanter, and none of these with any Hasidic rebbes. We can, and should contact each other if we do not see eye to eye, but it is useless and retrograde to try to squeeze all the world's Orthodox rabbis into a "one-size-fits-all" formula because at this stage of the game Wikipedia is too sophisticated for that and so are most people. IZAK 12:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HaRav Zalman Sorotzkin

Page moved, Y'yasher Kochacah for starting it. -- Avi 13:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the way to rename/move a page can be found here: Wikipedia:How to rename (move) a page -- Avi 13:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Telz Chicago

Telzer, Can you do a piece about the Telz Yeshiva in Chicago? Thanks! Havdala 04:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories for Orthodox rabbis and more

Note: The following was placed at User talk:Nesher#Hello, too many new categories for rabbis, please stop and is cross-posted here for your attention because of its importance. Thanks. IZAK 11:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Telzer: Sholom Aleichem this is the first time we have met. I have corrected the errors with Rabbi Sorotzkin. Firstly, you must understand that Wikipedia articles are collaborative efforts. I did not do anything to harm the articles you wrote. I commend your efforts. I am trying to help improve them, especially in the process of categorizing them on Wikipedia. It seems that you do not understand the system of the Wikipedia:Category schemes. Please take the time to study Wikipedia:Categorization, especially Wikipedia:Categorization#How to create subcategories. Please do not impugn my motives, try to follow Wikipedia:Assume good faith, otherwise your words against me may be regarded as violating Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I have been structuring categories, sub-categories, sub-sub-categories etc in the the super Category:Jews and Judaism quite successfuly for many years on Wikipedia with basically NO complaints. If you have any problems, kindly bring them to my attention on my talk page and I will discuss things with you at length. I am always ready to learn and adapt! Now, let me explain: Category:Orthodox rabbis is the "super category" for ALL types of Orthodox rabbis as you correctly understand. However, over the years many types of Orthodox rabbis have had articles about them added on Wikipedia making it both necessary and logical to create sub-categories and sub-sub-categories based on common universally-known names that the world (both Jewish and secular -- and NOT "me") uses that IDENTIFIES these rabbis as who they are uniquely. Thus Category:Hasidic rebbes, Category:Haredi rabbis, Category:Modern Orthodox rabbis, and now Category:Rosh yeshivas -- all VERY different TYPES of Orthodox rabbis -- are ALL now in sub-categories of the greater Category:Orthodox rabbis, which in turn is a sub-category of the super-category Category:Rabbis which in turn is itself a sub-category of several other super-categories, including Category:Clergy. So the system is e x p a n s i v e as it develops over time as long as it sticks to known scholarly naming conventions. So, while it is true that Hasidic rebbes and Litvish rosh yeshivas are "clergy" it would NOT be correct to put them into that category of Category:Clergy directly, and similarly, they are NOT mere "Orthodox rabbis" (even though Category:Orthodox rabbis is a "super-category" for them as well) but it is certainly CORRECT, TRUE and in keeping with the HONOR of their titles and the office/s they hold and functions they perform to have them in their own TRUE sub-categories. Finally, there is nothing wrong with the word "Haredi", it has universal usage today and it is relatively easy to identify a rabbi that has lived in the past hundred years as "Haredi" without feeling any shame or guilt at all. It is done all the time everywhere (it is not "me" that "invented" this or thinks this way all on my own.) I look forward to your future respones and hoping we can co-operate in our mutual interests. Be well and Kol Tuv, IZAK 11:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mechina

LOL - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 16:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Well Done!

I hereby award this Exceptional Newcomer award to Telzer for his hard work, great attitude and tremendous enthusiasm. You're great! Nesher 20:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Category:Sephardic Orthodox rabbis

Hi Telzer, you'll be pleased to know that I've created a new, objective category - Sephardic Orthodox rabbis. Unlike many of a certain other user's creations, this category doesn't rank Rabbonim by how Frum they are or their political beliefs. In short, it's absolutely impossible to argue why any of the Rabbis have been placed in it - because of course they're all Sephardi. I hope you like it. Many thanks, Nesher 16:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rav Chaim Ozer

Hi Telzer, yasher koach for the support. I'm adding Rabbi Mbandzeni of Swaziland ASAP to the Sephardi Haredi Rabbis cat - surely you knew he was quite a Shtark guy? Honestly, the reason I got started on him was because I was looking up Rabbi Natan Gamedze and was interested to know which king of Swaziland he was descended from. Obviously, I never found that out, but in the process I stumbled across some articles that needed to be written... the rest is history. Aside from that, my connection to Africa is minimal - distant relatives there, but never been there.

Thanks for pointing out the Rabbi Chaim Ozer pic. But have you get a Mekor for your assertion? I only ask because the site where I picked up the picture from clearly said "Rabbi Chaim Ozer... with Rabbi Finkel [2]" . Many thanks, Nesher 11:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Telzer, I must say I'm very surprised. "Rabbi Finkel" was only the Mashgiach of Slabodka! As to seeing the comparison with Rav Shkop, Rav Finkel looks similar to me + we've got many websites saying that its Rav Finkel! Nesher 12:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Ok, for your stout defence of your position and elaborate proofs, you win! Nesher 13:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC) PS: One more thing. If its not Rav Finkel, how do you know its Rav Shkop?

[edit] Vfd and Vfm

Hi Telzer, please see

Many thanks, Nesher 21:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userpage

Mine was designed by User:Phaedriel, who is taking requests. Yours, on the other hand, is certified kosher by the holy Badatz. Only problem is, the Badatz logo is copyrighted and displayed under a fair use assertion, which does not apply to userspace and must be removed, which I took care of for you. Sorry about that... - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Oshamnu... Bogadnu... Gozalnu... - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OK

Shalom! I will try to get photos of yeshivas in Lita/Lithuania. Say me exact buildings you wish. Leitraot--fivetrees 16:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Write me fivetrees@yahoo.com

[edit] Thanks, my dear Telzer!

Aww, thank you for your kind words, my dear Telzer :) Can you keep a secret? To be completely honest, just between the two of us: I like the design I made for CrzRussian more than the one I have at my own userpage! :( Should have kept it for myself!

Seriously, thank you, you're too kind - and I'd be delighted to help you with your own userpage if you wish. Even now, although there isn't much content there, I can still beautify it a little, if you want. A pleasure to meet you, and talk to you soon! Big hug, Phædriel ♥ tell me - 23:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bru, don't tjoon me grief!

I would be more than happy to contribute my knowlege of South African slang. Where can I find out more? And why are you subjected to it? Are you from SA? Ayinyud 11:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

What I was asking was, who wants more info on SA slang? and where? And why do you know so many expats? Ayinyud 19:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rav Yisroel Salanter

Simple. From here. Press the binocular icon in the top row to search for "Salanter". If you can't do that, then it's on page 47 of 84. Many thanks, Nesher 12:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Telzer, as usual I owe you a debt of gratitude for your sharp spotting of any possible errors! I think your point is extremely valid, and I would definately support removing the reference to the Gaon. As you rightfully point out, "we don't know where the author of the Hadras Melech found this information". I too, "wouldn't like the article to be mechadesh history", a worrying trend I have seen before on wikipedia, which can have implications in future.

By all means, remove the reference to the Gaon. Trust me, I'm not insulted in the least. I found the reference, though it credible (I'm not as sharp as you!) and thought it would be a nice and interesting addition to the article. So I have no personal kesher with it and don't mind either way.

PS: When I looked through the list of the Gaon's descendants you kindly linked to, most of the descendants were born at the latest 1800. So this in itself doesn't entirely disqualify the Gaon's ancestry, but together with the fact that it isn't mentioned anywhere else and has no other Mekoros I'd much rather play it safe by removing it. And... on the off chance we discover we're wrong and Rav Salanter was a descendant, no harm's done. Kol Tuv, Nesher 15:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Telzer Derech!

I put back the template for ORBCOTW. The Telzer Derech (Whether Lithuania, Ohio, Riverdale, Telz-stone, or Chicago) would be to vote FOR Rabbi Belsky, even though (makes circular motion with thumb) I don't deserve it...

(I'd possibly give you a barnstar, just possibly.. except that in telz, barnstars were avoided like the plauge.):) JJ211219 09:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Awesome job!

Image:Hand with thumbs up.jpg	Great Work! For your Lomdus. Well done!

JJ211219 12:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Kal Ve'Chomer...

[edit] "m"

heh... do you have this message right about your submit buttons:

O This is a minor edit (what's this?)  O Watch this page

- CrazyRussian talk/email 12:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

OK... between your edit summary line, and your sumbit/preview/showchanges buttons - WHAT do you have? - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chofetz Chaim picture

Please direct all concerns over choice of picture to Crzrussian. He was the one who kindly made it for us. My personal opinion is that the Chofetz Chaim is fine; his boundless Ahavah for all shades of Jews is sadly not recognised. He doesn't have to agree with those with whom he graces their pages - rather he epitomises an Orthodox rabbi of any shade. However, Telzer if you can come up with a better picture than by all means try. Many thanks, Nesher 12:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Telzer, I must say I rather like the large-design ORBCW on your uploaded images page. Thank you. -- Nesher 11:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It's unreadable. Would you please just make a "ORBCW" in the same style, bigger font, wider, shorter. If nobody can read it anyway, we don't need the full name. - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Deletions/Renamings

Hi Telzer: Please see:

Many thanks, Nesher 12:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Options

I'd just like to outline the options availible to us. Please tell me what you prefer.

a Telzer graphic, either the existing one(s) or an improved version
current Talmud picture of Crz
newer talmud picture to be uploaded (per Avi)
the torah pic I suggested (very Bedieved for me)

I'm personally in favour of options 1 or 3 -- Nesher 16:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Telzer, I see that Crz has changed the template picture to Talmud.jpg. I personally don't mind and think it fits quite well. However, if you have any input and would like to see a different picture, please don't hesitate in commenting. Again, thank you for all your hard work and effort on this issue. Many thanks, Nesher 13:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank You

Hi Telzer, I just wanted to express my gratitude to you for pointing out that useful Board of Milah info. Going that extra mile to make an article that bit better is highly meritorious and I'm deeply grateful for your effort. Many thanks. By the way, I'm astonished that you found the article so quickly - when some of them don't get edited that much, I have absolutely no idea how many people read them. Judging by you, it could be quite high! Many thanks, Nesher