Talk:Ted Williams

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Ted Williams was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: March 31, 2006

Contents

[edit] "9"

I've stumbled across this page and have no idea what the picture of the "9" is about. Should it have a comment or caption or redirection?

It was his number and it probably should have a comment. BrainRotMenacer 18:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pilot experience

Shouldn't there be a great deal more information on his military career/experience? Being a fighter pilot in two significant wars warrants more attention. RedSix 17 May 2006

  • Agreed! It would be great if some more focus on this aspect were done. --Don Sowell 21:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The image doesn't work. -Fsotrain09 05:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

hey i have a question why was ted william called thumper because i am looking for a nickname and i am wearing his number and look up to him as a baseball player so i was just wondering why he was called that? if anyone can help email me at dhwilbur@adelphia.net

California Birth Records have his first name as Theodore, not Teddy. The 1920 and 1930 census records for San Diego list him as Theodore. Questors 23:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


Actually, look at the birth certificate as reproduced in the book THE KID: TED WILLIAMS IN SAN DIEGO, page 224. One can see there are questions about what his original given name was.

The original birth certificate has "Teddy Samuel Williams". At some time "Teddy" was crossed out and replace with "Theodore". But Ted's mother called him "Teddy".

[edit] question

Question regarding the genealogy of Ted's mother. Will the person who posted the very interesting material on the Spanish roots of the Venzor and Hernandex family please be in touch?

I've heard Williams walked about 20% of the time; can somebody confirm? Trekphiler 03:41, 27 December 2005 (UTC) no mention of ted's brother,or his nephews,and the birth dates of all his children and who he had them with.williams also had some mexican heritage and no mention of his father.


Looks like it's slightly over 20%. 2021 Base on Balls divided by some 9730 plate appearances. No Guru 04:58, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

In response to trekphiler, Bill Nolin articulates Ted's roots extensivly in his book, "The Kid" from San Deigo. for your info, Ted had no "Mexican hearatage", as you refer..His Basque parent's andecendents immigrated from the Navarre reigon of Spain early in the 1800's, living in Chihuahua, Mexico, and moving to the US in the late 1800's. At that time in Mexico, Ted's family, both Venzor and Hernandez, did not integrate with Indians, Mulatos, Mestizos, Latinos, Hispanics, Germans or the French, although, later, some mixed with Creollos (people born in Spain, i.e., Spanish) but they remained mostly Basque.

Also; Ted's brother Danny, died in 1960 of leukemia in San Diego at the age of 39. He had 3 sons. Ted and his first wife, Doris Soule, had a daughter, Bobby-Jo. John-Henry and Claudia were born with Ted's third wife Delores Wettach. Although Ted's grandparents came from Mexico, Ted's family claims their origins as Spanish Basque; though he lovingly refered to them as "the Mexicans". Lineimage 03:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"His Basque parent's andecendents immigrated from the Navarre reigon of Spain early in the 1800's, living in Chihuahua, Mexico, and moving to the US in the late 1800's. At that time in Mexico, Ted's family, both Venzor and Hernandez, did not integrate with Indians, Mulatos, Mestizos, Latinos.."
That statement made absolutely no sense, how can a family live in a country for generations without marrying outside of their Basque family? I don't know which book you were reading but I have the book The Kid: Tedd Williams in San Diego by Bill Nowlin and he mentions Williams' Hispanic heritage throughout. "Ted's mother May Venzer Williams, originally from El Paso, gave Ted his Mexican blood." (page 217) It also includes interviews with other members of Williams' family including the Corderos(Ted's cousins) "My forefather was a corporal. They came from Spain. They arrived in Mexico city. He married in Baja to a Mexican woman, and they came up here to California. His son married an Indian here, the princess of the Chumash Indian tribe. He was there when they were building the missions. That was in the 1780s or 1790s." (Teresa Corder p. 277) So there family was very much a part of the Mexican American and Hispanic communities. It also includes a few pictures of Williams posing with the Venzors, Herreras and Corderos (most appear to be of Mestizo descent).SamChambers (talk) 11:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed Good Article Status

This article was failed because of insufficient references. joturner 01:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


I can add a useful reference book on Ted Williams: The Ted Williams Reader, a series of articles, essays and profiles on or about Ted Williams. I also think more should be said about Williams's complex relation with the fans, and will try to compose a few sentences about that, complete with a reference.

Andrew Szanton 4/06

[edit] Alcor Controversy

Alcor may not deny having taken him without a *contract*, but that's not the same thing as doing it against his wishes. To the best of my knowledge, it's fairly clear that Williams got exactly what he wanted. Others may not agree with his wishes, but the article makes it sound like two of his children secretly planned this thing out without his knowledge or consent. I'm not asking you to believe their side of the argument, but I do think it should be presented. 69.21.93.150 13:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC) Konrad

I think the current edit makes clear that all the children (two for cryonics, one against) were doing what they believed their father wanted. 71.160.248.79 18:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


No this is not a good article. Like nearly all baseball biographies I read on here, there are almost no sources and most the the material is personal opinion, even if you personal opinions are based on fact. Mglovesfun 21:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The edit to the Post-death section by NoGuru today does not improve the article, IMHO. With so much text deleted, the remaining text does not make sense. What dispute, what pact, what cryonics decision? Sourcing is a problem, but gutting the section cannot be the solution.71.160.248.79 21:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I am going to remove all of the unsourced material from this section again. It reads like a soap-opera and has very little in the way of sourcing. Please only re-add if you properly source each item. From Wikipedia:Verifiability-- The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it. -- No Guru 22:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Atheist?

The article is in the American Atheist category but I don't see anything in the article as it stands to suggest that he was in fact an atheist. Pretzelpaws 20:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

His mother was an extremely active evangelist all her life, which turned Ted off the Lord and his work. I have seen no evidence for Ted being an atheist. At worst he was indifferent to religion, but his actions throughout his life prove that his mother's teachings had an impact. Lineimage 03:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

There is the teammate Johnny Pesky quote from Sports Illustrated, "He was an atheist. He didn't believe in religion." 71.160.248.79 19:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion about Rip Sewell home run and film footage

Ted Williams hit the game winning home run in the 1941 All Star Game in Detroit off of Claude Passeau. The footage of him skippping around the bases is from that game. He described it as "his greatest thrill in baseball". Williams did hit a home run off of Rip Sewell's Eephus pitch in the 1946 All-Star Game, in the 8th inning.

[edit] Alcor's rebuttal of SI

I read Alcor's rebuttal of SI, and at the end there's this: "The best proof that Alcor handles cases responsibly is that in 32 years of Alcor history and detailed case reports, no reports can be found of anyone choosing cryonics with Alcor ever going to reporters or authorities to complain that they were misled by Alcor, or regretted their choice of Alcor." Does anyone else find it unsurprising that no people cryonically frozen by Alcor have complained? I don't, since as far as I know, dead people who have had their heads cut off and members put in liquid nitrogen don't complain much.--Grand Slam 7 02:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I remember blog traffic at the time where people asked why the two children who sent him there weren't complaining, and apparently still wanted to be frozen themselves. They and others waiting to be frozen are presumably the "choosers" spoken of. 76.169.207.173 03:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting?

There's a line that I'm not seeing the significance of: "Interestingly, it(the infield shift) is often used against David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, Jim Thome and Travis Hafner."

Why is this interesting in an article about Ted Williams? If it is that interesting, some more elucidation would help. --Don Sowell 21:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There have been no answers forthcoming in about four months on why this is so interesting or relevant to Ted Williams, so I've pulled it. --Don Sowell 22:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rounding up to .400

I would like to see some discussion of whether Williams' 1941 average would really have been rounded up to .400. I could add it myself; I simply question whether this is the place for this sort of detail; or on the other hand, whether a separate article would be worthwhile, since it would pretty much only concern Williams.

It is true that it has been widely reported that his next-to-last-day average of .39955 would have been rounded up to .400. However, Major League Baseball has a penchant for simply using extra digits when needed. Williams himself was once a victim of this. In 1949, he and George Kell both hit .343. But they didn't tie for the batting championship; Kell was the one and only champion that year, .3429 to .3427. Similarly, needing 75% of the vote to get into the Hall of Fame, Nellie Fox in 1985 received only 74.8%; they didn't round, and he was kept out. This was Fox's last year of eligibility from the Baseball Writers; he didn't get in until the Veterans Committee voted him in 1997.

Even had Williams been recognized at the time as a .400 hitter--and, for most purposes except whether he actually did hit .400, they probably would have rounded it--he probably no longer would be. Baseball has tightened up some of its recognition of various feats, including eliminating recognition of some feats accomplished long ago. Ty Cobb had one batting championship taken away; Harvey Haddix had his 12-inning perfect game, along with a number of other pitchers' no-hitters, moved to a separate category of close but no cigar. Most likely, Williams would now be recognized as replacing Lefty O'Doul (.3981 in 1929) as the hitter who came closest to .400 without quite making it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mr-phil (talk • contribs) 23:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC).


    • My understanding, and perhaps this is apocryphal, is that he had a .399 ba going in to his last AB of the season. He was offered the opportunity to sit out the AB, thereby guaranteeing that he would finish the season at .400. Instead, he took the AB and hit a HR, raising his average to .406. He finished the 1941 season with a .406 BA.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=willite01

Djcbuffum (talk) 02:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism?

Someone who knows more about Ted Williams should probably repair the second paragraph of Early Life, where it says:

"He turned professional while still in high school, and had offers from the Yankees and the Cardinals, but decided to play basketball with Joe at the local Y. Joe was usually hot from the corners, and played absolutely sintalating defense by waving is plastic leg in front of Ted, while he would try to shoot, giving Williams the hand-eye coordination needed to hit a baseball."

[edit] Basque / Mexican background

This article states, "His mother, May Venzor, was a Salvation Army worker of Basque descent from Ciudad Juarez, Mexico." That suggests that May Venzor was primarily of Basque descent which is not the case. The Venzor's ancestors were originally Basques who emigrated to Mexico, however, they intermarried with Mexicans. May Venzor's mother was full Mexican and her father was Mexican as well as Basque.[1] The Venzors referred to themselves as "Mexicans" and Ted Williams himself referred to that side of his family as "the Mexicans"[2]. Williams also once told Nomar Garciaparra(Mexican-American) that he was also Mexican. So I don't understand why May Venzor's Basque heritage is being emphasized. SamChambers (talk) 10:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

good point SamChambers, I almost want to say that there's a climate of bigoted hostility towards things "mexican" to a lot of American archivists, particularly on Wikipedia, to downplay the Mexican people or even relegate them to a corner of "irrelevance". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.18.49 (talk) 09:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations & References

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 10:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OBP Stat.

The article states that he held the liftime OBP record at .551 for 61 years. But Baseball Almanac has him listed as still holding the all-time OBP record at .482

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiobp1.shtml

Which is correct? Or am I missing someting?

Djcbuffum (talk) 02:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

He holds the lifetime OBP record at .482 and he held the single-season OBP record for 61 years (.553, not .551, actually): see [3][4]. Both are technically correct, but the article is unclear about which is being discussed in the lead. That needs to be clarified in one direction or the other. Camanda (talk) 02:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Remove the statistics grid

There is no reason to add his career stats to this wiki article, per WP:NOT#STATS. A link or links to relevant websites that have this information should be used instead. Timneu22 (talk) 10:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Following the lead of other articles, a single line covering his career stats such be sufficient. The details - probably more than anyone but a die-hard figger filbert would want - are in the external links. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Um, so you agree to remove the grid? Timneu22 (talk) 18:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not removing anything. I'm just saying it's probably not needed. But it's not bothering me that much either. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)