Talk:Ted Nugent

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[edit] list of well known songs

this list needs to be removed, or at least cut back. seriously, he only has two famous songs. cat scratch fever and stanglehold. Jimi Hendrix(who without a doubt was much better than ted nugent) has no songs mentioned in his intro. this artivle should follow suit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.20.87 (talk) 23:47, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

seriosuly please cut back his list of well known songs in the intro. HE only has two . maybe three if you count free for all fred bear is not well known, nor is it well written, nor is it a rock song —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.12.135 (talk) 02:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sandra Janowski

I can find no corroborating source indicating that he first began dating his wife Sandra Janowski when she was 13 years of age. The cited sources make no such mention, although they corroborate other details such as her cause of death, et cetera. All other findings on Google either directly mirror Wikipedia content or trace their citations back to this article, creating a nice circular trail of breadcrumbs, and making this article the apparently original source. Furthermore, it seems highly unlikely that this could be proven fact and yet he would escape investigation or prosecution, or that such a controversial detail would not be mentioned anywhere else that is reputable. I think this is likely FUD, and should be edited to remove the age unless it can be confirmed with a reputable source or public records. Otherwise this definitely qualifies as poorly sourced, controversial, and libelous. - Tolstoy143 Quos vult perdere dementat 04:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed my 'disputed' tag following an edit that seemingly clarifies the issue. However, I still do not consider IMDB bios as a solidly credible source. - Tolstoy143 Quos vult perdere dementat 06:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] draft dodge hoax

"Later, he became quite controversial for his right-wing beliefs and his anti-drug and anti-alcohol stance, making him virtually unique among professional musicians."

There are plenty of professional musicians who are controversial, right-wing, anti-drug and/or anti-alcohol; nothing unique here. Unless you are saying that he is unique among professional musicians for becoming controversial for these particular views (a debatable point in itself), I would suggest simply ending the sentence after "stance."

JHCC

Why is the false draft story continually reinserted? The interview was a parody in "High Times".


Was Ted Nugent a draft dodger. Is this section true?
Nugent dodged the draft during the Vietnam War. In an interview for the Detroit Free Press (July 15, 1990), Nugent described how he avoided the draft: He claims that 30 days before his Draft Board Physical, he stopped all forms of personal hygiene. The last ten days he ingested nothing but junk food and Pepsi, and a week before his physical he stopped using the bathroom altogether, virtually living inside pants caked with excrement and stained by his urine. That spectacle won Nugent a deferment, he says. His quote: “ but if I would have gone over there, I’d have been killed, or I’d have killed, , or I’d have killed all the Hippies in the foxholes… I would have killed everybody.”
Was this a parody from High Times or not?--Seanor 18:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Looked this up and then hit his site [[1]] and it mentions this at the beginning and he talks about this is not at all what happend. So taking it out since it was refuted by source. At their own website.--Xiahou 02:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Xiahou, the "source" link you submitted is very dead. Please provide another link if you can. Also, isn't it against policy to consider tednugent.com a suitable "source" anyway? Shouldn't this be confirmed or denied by a third party instead of by ted Nugent's own vanity website with an obvious bias and no press credentials whatsoever? Well, anyway, I've contacted the Detroit Free Press and I'll post my results later. Cowicide 07:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
"Nugent stopped all forms of personal hygiene for a month and showed up for his draft board physical in pants caked with his own urine and feces, winning a deferment." "Facing a draft, Nugent bravely wet his pants. Rocker is all talk as he calls Obama, Hillary vile names. August 27, 2007" [2] by DBrnstn 06:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

-That article is a (none too funny) spoof, man. Not intended to be confused with the truth. Except, apparantely by left-wing trollers like yourself. Uncle Ted tells it like it is, and Obama is a jug-eared, cowardly buffoon with links to cartoonishly racist and anti-American figures.

[edit] Sectionalize

This article needs sections. Please sectionalize, its quite rough on the eyes as is. Redwolf24 1 July 2005 23:31 (UTC)

Actually, this article has way too many sections as it is. Please condense. Mcfly85 03:56, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I think there should be a section about the teenaged Vietnamese girl he married and fornicated with earlier in his career, I believe in the early 1980's. I saw it on VH1's behind the music, and Nugent admitted to it, so I believe it to be true. I feel that it provides an interesting contrast to his statments about child molesters. [e.stebbins, November 21 2006]


Why is the draft dodge story considered a hoax? The article in question wasn't from High Times but from a 1990 article in the Detroit Free Press Magazine. Here is a link to the Michigan Liberal.[3] It refers to this article and others. Unfortunately I couldn't find an archived article at the Detroit Free Press magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Juba the Wolf (talk • contribs) 21:33, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bison Picture

Is this caption really appropriate? I'm guessing the person who wrote this was a supporter? And the other is even worse. No, my problem isn't the use of "ass", it's just the whole concept. --Jammoe 01:26, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

No offense gang, but this article is a mess. Chunks of the subjects life are covered under topics like "controversies" and "trivia". It'd be much better if the section headers were "1970s", "1980s", "1990s", etc. Put each event in its place and don't prejudge whether it's trivial or controversial. -Willmcw 11:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

bizarre to have a section headed Trivia when most of the article is trivia. Especially under the Television and video section. Actio 00:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Travis who?

Who in the world is Travis Whipple? Where did you get that information? As I have always known, his second guitarist during his early solo years (1975-1978) was Derek St. Holmes www.derekstholmes.com. Not only did he sing most songs on TED NUGENT, but he also sang on FREE FOR ALL, along with Meatloaf. Then again on CAT SCRATCH FEVER. About this time Derek made an album with Aerosmiths' Brad Whitford.

This article spends more time on Ted Nugent the rightwing hunter than on his music. I suppose currently that is where he gets most of his press, but there was a time when he was one of the biggest concert sellers around.

[edit] Surviving Nugent 2 contestant injury

This is probably a spoiler for those who haven't seen the show, so stop reading now if you don't want to know, but the guy who was injured by the car in the stunt was a stuntman hired and and planted as a contestant to specifically to make it look like he got hurt by a car to demoralize the other contestants. This was explained in the final episode when they brought him back on. -Dawson 05:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alcohol

In the mid-1980s, in an interview with Charlie Rose on CBS News Nightwatch, Nugent said he only got drunk as a teen and had abstained from alcohol ever since.

But at the 1998 NRA convention in Philadephia, he said (right after a special panel discussion on media relations) that he had recently started to have African wines with his dinners.

Are there any definitive quotes, interviews, etc. regarding Nugent's life experience and habits involving alcohol?72.82.167.164 08:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I saw one interview, which may have been the same one, where he said he tried beer once as a teen, and hated the taste. The gist of that interview was that he did not get drunk, but only took a couple swigs and decided he hated it. Sorry but I don't have enough information to name the source.JeffStickney 20:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

A couple years back he was on the Bob and Tom radio show and talked about how he had drank some mixed drinks with Sammy Hagar at Cabo Wabo. If it wasn't Ted it was Sammy. 98.223.223.178 (talk) 23:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] controversies

Need to add in this quote from Mr. Nugent:

Nugent: I was in Chicago last week I said, "Hey Obama, you might want to suck on one of these, you punk?" Obama, he’s a piece of shit and I told him to suck on one of my machine guns. Let’s hear it for them. I was in New York and I said, "Hey Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset you worthless bitch." Since I’m in California, I’m gonna find Barbara Boxer she might wanna suck on my machine guns. Hey, Dianne Feinstein, ride one of these you worthless whore.

Also, the Video of same: <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JXRxdZIGce4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JXRxdZIGce4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Also this section should be updated as charges are pressed, the court trial begins, and if and when Mr. Nugent begins his prison sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.34.7 (talk) 08:49, August 26, 2007 (UTC)


needs to be completely re-written. 24.85.151.149 21:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Any particular reason why? simply tagging it as disputed when then has been no real previous disputes...of any merit...is more akin to trolling than to trying to contribute in any kind of positive way. Unless there is some sort of point trying to be made where no concensus can be reached....the tag is not required. I will post on the Wikipedia Guitarist project for their input since this article falls under their field of interest. 142.166.239.76 21:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with 24.85.151.149: this is one of the most poorly-written biographies that I've encountered of a major figure. It is badly organized, contains grammatical mistakes, has an excessively long trivia section, etc. Someone who is familiar with the subject should give this article a major overhaul. -Will Beback 01:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There are huge problems with much of the content of this section. Things like the "supposed" comments about foreigners are not verifiable. It's issues like this that make much of Ted's bio in violation of WIKI's methodology. I agree...This desperately needs to be cleaned up.

[edit] Wikiquotes

Wikiquotes has a short (almost stub) page of Ted's quotes. A lot of his quotes could be moved off of this page's Trivia and Controversy sections and put onto Wikiquote. That would both clean up this article and improve the wikiquote one. Also I can't find any mention of his deafness on this page.JeffStickney 00:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

Maybe something could be added to "controversies" about his psuedo-knowledge of the outdoors. I recall one episode on his reality show where he buried some people up to their necks in wet mud. Did anyone else see this? If I remember correctly, he stood there, as they were shivering uncontrollably, remarking about how important preventing hypothermia was or something. Firstly, the shivering was a sign that hypothermia was already setting in but the fact that their bodies and movement weren't visible makes identifying the stage difficult. However it's pretty simple. Cold + wet + submerged in mud = hypothermia. I hope it was the editing, but it seemed very foolish. InSpades 01:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NRA board service

I have checked the entire NRA website, and found several references to his entertaining, but only one reference to his NRA board service. I edited that sentence and inserted a ref. See my edits to Hunting license for my bona fides. Bearian 17:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted paragraph pending tidying up

Although there is much here which is not clear, because of the totally unclear syntax, I have deleted the following paragraph from the Organization Membership section:

Although he holds libertarian beliefs Second Amendment rights, Nugent has been outspoken in his contempt for drug abuse and drug abusers, stating that his "level of awareness" is what compelled him to "turn down the drooling, puking, dying punks with their drugs and their alcohol and tobacco," claiming to "have busted more hippies' noses than all the narcs in the free world. I hate drug abuse."[1]

I have no objection to it being put back once it has been tidied up. Please.

Suggestion to all: the trivia section and personal life is far greater than the data referring to his professional life. Is there any way we could have a main page for the artist and a linked sub-section containing trivia, etc. By way of example - I think Picasso was a great artist but I'm not especially interested in how many women, men or whatever he may have had sexual relationships with. The main page could then be considered as a major wiki contribution to spreading culture, whereas the trivia sub-section link could be a general free-for-all - within the limits established by Wikipedia, of course. 83.180.165.94 15:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] canada

"Regarding NRA

An avid hunter, Ted Nugent was a frequent visitor to Canada until the government of Ontario cancelled the spring black bear hunt in 1999. Upset that he could not participate in the hunt, Nugent vowed to never return to Canada.[citation needed] Canada declared a national holiday in celebration of this announcement. An outspoken advocate of hunting and gun ownership rights and owner of 350 guns, Nugent has served since 1995 on the board of directors of the National Rifle Association (NRA)."

For some reason I doubt that in Canada we have a "Ted Nugent isn't coming back" holiday. Just doesn't have the right ring. I could be wrong though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.39.209.193 (talk) 00:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

That has to be the dumbest thing ive ever heard, and he does still come to canada, he was at hawk rocks the park in London Ontario last summer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.137.30.173 (talk) 00:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Draft Dodging

The July 15, 1990 edition of the Detroit Free Press has an interview with The Nuge himself, who bragged about dodging the draft. Here is an excerpt:

"Nugent says his blood runs red, white, Reagan and Bush, and if they had a war -- a real war -- he would fight his way to the front line. He was proud to play the national anthem before a Detroit Pistons-Chicago Bulls Eastern Conference championship game. And he is equally proud that the Michigan Legislature this year proclaimed him a "wholesome, traditional" man of "honesty, integrity, loyalty and patriotism." But Nugent wanted no part of Vietnam. He claims that 30 days before his draft board physical, he stopped all forms of personal hygiene. The last 10 days, he ingested nothing but Vienna sausages and Pepsi; and a week before his physical, he stopped using bathrooms altogether, virtually living inside pants caked with his own excrement, stained by his urine. That spectacle won Nugent a deferment, he says, although the Free Press was unable to verify his draft status. "The men who went should be applauded, but if I would have gone over there, I'd have been killed, or I'd have killed all the hippies in the foxholes ... I would have killed everybody." With his worries about the draft out of the way -- "I never heard from them again" -- Nugent focused on his band."

Richard Roeper, writing for the Chicago Sun-Times this last week of August 2007, also references Nugent peeing and shitting in his pants to avoid the draft in the Vietnam War. Nugent does not dispute the story. Never has. This THIRD MSM story on the chickenhawk, Mr. Nugent, at: http://www.suntimes.com/news/roeper/529419,CST-NWS-roep27.article.

Nugent may not have dodged the Vietnam draft in the manner described in his High Times article. But the fact that he avoided a war he supported (he took a student deferment to attend community college) is relevant here, as Nugent historically has been a proponent of US military intervention and staunchly pro-firearms. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.62.147.253 (talk) 03:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

The phenomenon of people supporting for others what they avoid for themselves is not new. 68.155.16.152 01:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure you could find examples of people who used the student deferement and then later went to war. Maybe he just wanted to be educated before fighting? --Gbleem 10:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

very unlikely that Nugent would have passed the induction physical due to hearing loss from rock music and gunfire.

[edit] Classic rock or rock

Very many of Nugent's albums has classic rock and rock in their genre. Only 3 of his albums has hard rock. I will put classic rock into the genre of Ted Nugent article. If you think that it's not right, then take it off...

Classic rock is a radio format not a music genre. 156.34.142.110 19:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Then why Cat scratch fever has classic rock in genre?
Because someone who hasn't got 2 clues about music has stuck it in there and no one has had the time to go in correct it. 156.34.142.110 20:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Hawaiian Girl

As it last appeared,

When Nugent turned 30, in 1978, he began a relationship with a 17-year old Hawaiian girl, Pele Massa, and became her legal guardian to comply with laws pertaining to relationships with minors.[4] This was covered in VH1's 1998 Behind the Music featuring Nugent, and included an interview with Massa.

Removed by Doc glasgow citing WP:BLP. Is the VH1 programme interviewing the girl not a reliable source or was improperly cited?—Dwmg 01:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nugent hosts a television program about Hunting

Ted Nugent hosts a television show about hunting on the The Outdoor Channel called Spirit of the Wild. This should be included somewhere in the article

show info on The Outdoor Channel official site: http://www.outdoorchannel.com/showinfo.cfm?site=1&ShowID=47

show info on Ted Nugent's official site: http://www.tednugent.com/hunting/spiritWild/

65.241.157.2 23:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding animal rights

The use of "canned hunt facility" is an unfair and inaccurate labeling of his ranch. It assumes tame, caged animals turned loose for the gun; Sunrize acres is no such operation, it has free ranging animals and ample cover and terrrain for them to escape. It is a "fenced hunting ranch" and is called such in the source article used for the paragraph's information: "Sunrize Acres, his fenced-in 340-acre hunting ranch." 71.117.3.160 05:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)JC

[edit] Ted dodged the draft for Vietnam. (Confirmed)

Here's an interview with Ted Nugent where he admits that he didn't serve in Vietnam.

IND: "But you did dodge the draft."

TED: "I had a 1Y [student deferment]. I enrolled at Oakland Community College."

IND: "you didn't want to get your Michigan ass blown off in Vietnam."

TED: "Correct. I did not want to get my ass blown off in Vietnam." ... "

SOURCE

Cowicide 08:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

AR-15 is not a "machine gun". It is however an automatic weapon similar to the M-16 A-1. A machine gun would be an M-50 or M-60 for example, please correct this erroneous entry accordingly.

Get right on that as soon as we add the little tidbit that he dodged the draft, k? Cowicide 08:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Righard Roper in the Chicago Sun Times:

By his own admission, Nugent stopped all forms of personal hygiene for a month and showed up for his draft board physical in pants caked with his own urine and feces, winning a deferment.

75.18.205.106 13:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I haven't done any editing before, so I thought I'd just let you guys know that footnote/link #5 is no longer valid. I have the current web address for the article in question here if somebody would like to update it who knows how. Keep up the good work.

Ted Nugent: Off his rocker?  can be found at  http://arts.independent.co.uk/music/features/article571538.ece

````catmandew —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.23.170.178 (talk) 17:48, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Story about Nugent neglecting hygiend to dodge draft

This story is uncorroborated and shouldn't be allowed to be on Wikipedia. People are citing a newspaper that cited another newspaper from an interview 17 years ago. Searches for this article through the Detroit Free Presses archives reveal no such article. Unless the article can be found through micro-film in a library or some other source, then this article should not be included. Please stop posting it. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Airiox (talk • contribs) 22:33, August 28, 2007 (UTC)


Good point...although DFP's archives online are incomplete, quoting from an article that can't be found (at least for now) is poor form. However, High Times in 1977 did conduct an interview with the Nuge and he did say that he crapped his pants and did crystal meth prior to his physical. So, perhaps that's where it came from. Comment added by User:Evets70 • 10:18 August 29, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evets70 (talk • contribs)

Your edit was well done, nice job. It's still speculation and I'm not sure if it belongs on wikipedia since he denies it. But at least is presents both sides of the story unlike previous edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Airiox (talk • contribs) 23:09, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! What I added does need some work, and it would be nice to verify the High Times article, but I felt that the Independent would have done their homework/research and not quoted false or improperly fact-checked sources. If he indeed made those statements in 1977, how are we to know now what is the truth? He may have been lying to the reporter/s then, but perhaps he's also doing that now? But even if he did make up that story for the 1977 interview, it's still something he did say. And about his "Marine Corps" service insinuation (added by someone later), I think it when Nugent was visiting (playing music for the troops?) Afghanistan and Iraq, he was allowed to handle some weapons (a thing that does happen on occasion with visitors to combat zones); in the same Independent article I quoted, Nugent stated "did I go to Fallujah two years ago? Damn right I did. And was I in Afghanistan, manning a 50-calibre machine gun in a Chinook - ready to rock? Yes. Was I there for years? No. A couple of weeks."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Evets70 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Why does Nugent's avoiding military service during Vietnam keeps getting deleted?

For one thing, what exactly is a "BLP investigation"? Second, I feel that a reliable news source like the Independent should be able to be used. Otherwise, most of this article (and many, many others) will have to be deleted! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evets70 (talk • contribs) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evets70 (talk • contribs) 19:01, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree with you. I think it would be helpful if THF would explain on what basis he commented out an entire section, even though it was apparently a single reference that he questioned. He should do more than just type "WP:BLP" and start deleting. Perhaps an indication of exactly what he perceives the violation of WP:BLP would be helpful to other editors. Ossified 19:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The section violates BLP in a number of respects. The first paragraph appears to create a synthesis between two unreliable sources (newshounds and nndb). I haven't read the newshounds source, so it may be that newshounds is reporting on what is listed at nndb. That is even worse. NNDB is NEVER a reliable source. Much of their content cites Wikipedia as a source, and Wikipedia is also NEVER a reliable source. The crapping his pants part appears to be uncorroborated. The last paragraph is certainly original research. It cites a secondary reliable source, but it treats that source as a primary source, and draws a conclusion about it ("appears to insinuate"). That is textbook original research. I reported this section to the BLP noticeboard, because I did not want to become directly involved. I happen to share membership with Nugent in a certain organization, and I did not want to be accused of bias in that respect. But as a BLP patroller, I felt this section needed to be removed, and I fully support THF removing it in response to my notice at WP:BLPN#Ted Nugent. - Crockspot 20:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Okay, I see your point(s). I must say, however, that I didn't write the "insinuate..." section, so I can't really comment on that (although I did look it up on Fox News and the interview was partially misquoted in the Wikipedia entry). I'll fix my part and re-post it...and will investigate further the High Times article and until then will not quote from it (but will use it in one or more Independent quotes, as I feel that they are a very reliable source). I wouldn't worry about the "bias" you mentioned (although I can see how it might affect someone's perception of you), as I was once a member of the NRA, am currently a member of a gun/fishing club, and was in the military for many, many years. And as one can see, I am not acting very pro Nugent! (I must disclose that I am very anti-"chickenhawk"; not serving in the military is obviously one's own choice and it's definitely not for everyone, but to actively avoid military service, and then be all pro-military/war years or decades later really ticks me off.) Alright, I'll shut up now! Evets70
The material was re-posted by the above user, and I deleted it. The discussion above confirms it was placed there as an attack for political reasons in violation of WP:BLP. Whether or not it is sourced, or true, the material is there primarily to cast disrepute on a living person. It also suffers from WP:WEIGHT problems. There are plenty of chickenhawks in the world, and murderous peaceniks and military service avoiders, but Wikipedia isn't the place for those kind of political arguments. If you want to argue for it, the discussion is at WP:BLPN but I don't see much chance the material will stay. Wikidemo 00:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's not go into the motives of the editors. If the material can be sourced properly and presented neutrally then it probably has a place in the article. The subject has apparently made statements about his lack of military service, so it isn't a negligible incident. I suggest that a way to proceed would be to first decide what, if any sources that cover this are reliable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Some mention of this, if properly sourced and presented, seems appropriate to me. A google search brings up 140,000 hits for "Ted Nugent" + draft, while "Ted Nugent" + Vietnam gets 186,000. The first 8 pages of these are clearly not Wikipedia appropriate, and I suspect that it's not going to be easy to find any kind of reliable source. Even those papers that are generally acceptable are running opinion pieces that don't bother disguising their vitriol. --Moonriddengirl 02:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I"m not sure why the subject's own comments from an interview with The Independent would represent a violation of WP:BLP. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
That's my problem with THF's commenting out the whole section. Those bits ref'd to The Independent don't appear to violate WP:BLP, and, in fact, could probably be expanded. As for Wikidemo's claim that Evets70's admission that (s)he is 'anti-chickenhawk' being 'proof' that he intended to 'attack' Nugent, I just don't see it. We all have biases when we come to edit an article. That Evets70 admitted to such a bias indicates to me that (s)he is aware of it and not following a covert agenda. It would be better for Wikipedia as a whole if everyone's biases and agendas were fully disclosed. Among other things, it would would make WP:AGF much easier to do. Ossified 01:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The section as a whole had so many problems that there really wasn't anything else to do but comment it out or move it to the talk page. There would have only been one out-of-context bit from the middle left after the OR and poor sources were removed. I'm not so sure the issue, whatever can be sourced, would merit its own section either. - Crockspot 02:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Looking at the deleted material, one of the problems (imo) is that the summary of material seems heavily biased. It's somewhat misleading, for instance, to state that Nugent denied doing meth before his draft hearing--he flat out denies ever doing meth. (It's like reporting that somebody did not beat his wife in 1990...it certainly suggests he might have beat her in 1989. :)) Take this statement, too: "In the interview, Nugent also stated that "I did not want to get my ass blown off in Vietnam." That's technically true, but somewhat misleading. He was affirming a statement by the interviewer. And there's no mention made of his balancing claim of time in Fallujah or Afghanistan. How can it not be biased to quote him saying he did not want to get his ass blown off, but to neglect to mention his saying "I am not a coward"? (Also, as stated above, the extensive quoting of the High Times interview is inappropriate, but that's a separate issue. We don't have the original interview for context.) We do all have biases, but BLP requires that we be especially careful not to let them color our articles. We can't risk error here. --Moonriddengirl 02:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, he flat out denies doing meth, however, in the Independent article/interview, the following is notable: The interviewer specifically says to Nugent, "In 1977 you gave an interview to High Times [the cannabis user's journal of record] where you claimed you defecated in your clothes to avoid the draft." If the interview hadn't occurred, or if Nugent hadn't made such a statement, one might expect Nugent to respond with something along the lines of either, "I was not interviewed by High Times, or "I never said that I defecated in my clothes." Instead, Nugent responded by saying, "You've got to realise that these interviewers would arrive with glazed eyes and I would make stories up." That seems to me to be a tacit acknowledgement that he was interviewed by High Times and that he had told them some stories, including that he used crystal meth and that he defecated in his pants. Whether he actually did is now an interesting question, because he apparently said one thing in 1977 and quite another in 2006. I think that this is relevant to Nugent's own credibility, but certainly not Independent's. If anything, it makes The Independent story more important, rather than less, If we are to avoid undue weight, we must avoid it not only when defending the subject of an article, or else we wind up with an encyclopedia of hagiographies that is valuable to no one. Ossified 02:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It could also be a way of covering for "'High Times'? Was I interviewed by 'High Times'? Wonder what I said to those guys?" :) We can't interpret his response; we have to present it as given. If Independent is a reliable source (I'm not familiar with it or taking the time to investigate at the moment, but I see some dispute of that above), it might be appropriate to say something like (off the top of my head): "An interviewer from the British magazine Independent questioned Nugent about a 1977 interview in High Times in which Nugent allegedly detailed elaborate steps taken to avoid the Vietnam draft. While not denying that he made such statements, Nugent dismissed their veracity, claiming that when confronted with glazed-eyed interviewers, he would "make stories up." He explained that he did not go to Vietnam because had a 1 year student deferment. When questioned, he admitted that he had "not wanted to get his ass blown off in Vietnam," but noted his later time in Fallujah and Afghanistan as support of his assertion that ""I am not a coward."" Links to the Independent article allow readers to check for more details themselves if they please. I don't know much about Nugent, so I'm not sure if "time in" is misleading. I can't tell from the interview if he's claiming he was there to fight or if he was some sort of entertainment or what. --Moonriddengirl 11:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Nice job for off the top of your head! A couple of notes: *The Independent passes muster as a reliable source by any standard I've seen here. Additionally, it's a newspaper, not a magazine. *According to the Independent article, Nugent went to Fallujah as part of a USO show. If we could be a little more explicit that the time he spent in Iraq and Afghanistan was to entertain the troops, I'm fine with that bit along with his assertion that he's not a coward. As you have it above (recognizing that it was a quick draft), it is too ambiguous regarding the reason he was there. *The first sentence is quite good. With a link to the Independent article, and the use of the word 'alleged', it leaves open the possibility that someone may find a valid cite to the actual High Times interview (rather than a reference to it in the Independent article), in which case 'alleged' can be dropped. I have to go earn a living now, but I'd be happy to take a crack at it later on today. In the meanwhile, if you have any urge to address my remaining concerns, please feel free. Ossified 14:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please, for God's sake, somebody edit what I wrote (I'm not a journalist nor an editor, so my writing isn't perfect!) and repost the information. I don't see why the people who keep erasing the information don't just edit it and then repost it. Nugent's avoidance of military service is a valid issue and topic, and it should be addressed/posted. His "time" in Fallujah and Afghanistan has nothing to do with his avoidance of service in Vietnam...unless he, unbeknownst to me, has suddenly joined the military and was there as a member of the military, not touring with his band so he could fire a few rounds from a weapon or two and pretend he's a combat veteran. I have nothing personally against Nugent, but a person who is very vocally pro-military or war now, yet at one time avoided his military obligation (at the time it was an obligation, due to the draft), I strongly feel deserves to be exposed for that hypocrisy. And again, if using a very reliable source of information (i.e. the Independent), and utilizing actual quotes from Nugent himself, to add to a Wikipedia entry isn't allowed, I've got some work ahead of me, as I likely have thousands of pages of entries to delete! ;) Evets70
I believe this situation may be addressed here: Neutrality disputes and handling. In summary, verifiability does not override neutrality. A matter must not be weighted to make a point (for or against). To quote, "Concerns related to undue weight, non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited. The two are different questions, and both must be considered in full, in deciding how the matter should be presented in an article." --Moonriddengirl 16:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Ossified. :) If you plan to revise the section, please feel free to use as much of it or as little of it as you like. As for the "entertaining troops" thing, it might be a simple matter to change it to read "When questioned, he admitted that he had "not wanted to get his ass blown off in Vietnam," but noted his later time with the USO in Fallujah and Afghanistan as support of his assertion that ""I am not a coward."" Anyone perceive changes along this line as a violation of BLP? As to your other concerns, I'll go see if I can find them. This conversation is a bit sprawling. :) --Moonriddengirl 16:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd be fine with the following (links, refs to be added upon consensus acceptance): "An interviewer from the British newspaper The Independent questioned Nugent about a 1977 interview in High Times magazine in which Nugent allegedly detailed elaborate steps taken to avoid the Vietnam draft. While not denying that he made such statements, Nugent dismissed their veracity, claiming that when confronted with 'glazed-eyed' interviewers, he would "make stories up." He explained that he did not go to Vietnam because had a 1 year student deferment. When questioned, he admitted that he had "not wanted to get his ass blown off in Vietnam," but made note of a tour he made with the USO in 2004 to Fallujah and Afghanistan as support of his assertion that "I am not a coward."" Feel free to comment or improve it if you are so moved... Ossified 22:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • It reads much better, but the sources are the most important part, so I would need to see those before I could give a good opinion. I'm not in favor of addressing the pantload issue directly, unless there are some pretty solid sources. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. - Crockspot 00:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I think it looks good, and seems to address the alleged [:)] problems with my earlier write up. However, I do feel that the "crapping the pants" story needs to be addressed, as there are numerous postings all over the Internet about it, and Wikipedia is a good place to prove or disprove (or at least intelligently discuss such a controversy) any such rumors, no? This website: http://www.rocksbackpages.com/artist.html?ArtistID=nugent_ted lists a 1977 interview with Nugent, so perhaps that's the one referenced in the Independent article (I'm also starting to wonder if the alleged Detroit Free Press article is actually the High Times article?). I'm trying to figure out if I can obtain a copy of the 1977 article via my local college's library, but perhaps someone else might have better (and quicker) luck. I guess if it turns out that he made the controversial statement(s) in High Times, the term "allegedly" can and will be removed? Evets70
  • I only have a moment at the moment, but regarding Evets70's comment above, I think that the High Times interview was from 1977 and the Detroit Free Press article was from July 15, 1990. Crock, I'll address your concern tomorrow, if that's ok. I have to go to bed now as I have an extraordinarily important fantasy football draft early. In any case, I hope that we are on the road towards something that we can all be happy with. Good night! Ossified 04:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • OK, back to Crock's issue...The Independent article is here. The pantload episode is not directly addressed in the proposed edit, as Moonriddengirl's text only refers to 'elaborate lengths' taken to avoid the draft which is a very fair description. As I mentioned earlier, a reading of the Independent article can only be taken to indicate that Nugent agrees that he made the statement attributed to him regarding the 'P.I.', but that he may not have been telling the truth when he said it. All in all, Moonriddengirl did an excellent job of addressing my concerns (and those of some others, as well). I hope that I have been able to allay some of your issues with the proposed text. Cheers! Ossified 16:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) I've read the Independent article, GREAT interview btw. Really funny, and you can tell he is totally messing with the reporter. I did spot one apparent mistake, the reporter says that Ted is wearing a "Glock revolver"... There is no such thing as a Glock revolver. But anyway, it supports the above proposed inclusion, and the inclusion is written well, and neutral, so I don't have a problem with it on face value. I do wonder though how relevant this particular aspect of the interview is to this biography. Aside from dubious partisan sources like chickenhawks.com, has Nugent ever been notably criticized for not serving in the past, and being supportive of the military now? I think the more important point to that whole exchange in the Independent interview is this quote: "Because I failed to serve in Vietnam, I feel an obligation now, to do everything I can to support those defending our freedom. Do I feel guilt and embarrassment? Yes." That is the part that struck a nerve with me. I did not serve, though members of my family have served, one being KIA in Vietnam. I now regret never serving, and since it is too late for me to do so, I too feel a great obligation to be supportive of those who do serve. I feel lucky that I never had to get my ass shot off, and that I am free to pontificate on the internet about it, and for that I am extremely grateful to those who have sacrificed and continue to do so. So I guess what I am getting at is, why is his avoiding being drafted and now supporting the troops even notable or relevant enough to mention? It's not like he was the only one who got a student deferment. Is it to expose his hypocrisy? Well, that would be POV. As I have pointed out, there are valid reasons why he feels supportive of the military now. So perhaps that quote should be added as well. I think the original intent of the section that I complained about was to "expose his hypocrisy", which is POV. From my own POV, I don't see any hypocrisy in his support of the military. So we need to consider WP:WEIGHT before we add this in. Honestly, I'm on the fence about it. This bit does clear up some disinformation that has been floating around for years, so I can see some value in it in that respect. But maybe we should be coming at this from a different angle. I certainly don't think a section title referencing Vietnam is appropriate. This issue isn't about Vietnam, it's really about his strong support for the military now, and how that irks some people, the same people who tend to use the POV term "chickenhawk". So discuss, and pull me off the fence. - Crockspot 02:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding its notability, comments about the subject's draft avoidance have appeared in the press repeatedly. Google ["ted nugent" +draft +vietnam]. This article is a biography which should cover his entire life and all of its notable incidents. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I get two hits (one is newshounds) in google news, and 17 hits in google news archives. Not highly notable, but I guess notable enough. In light of that, I would like to see the quote from my previous comment incorporated into the paragraph, or a paraphrasing thereof. - Crockspot 03:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • A proposal building off of Ossified's most recent, incorporating Crockspot's suggestion: "An interviewer from the British newspaper The Independent questioned Nugent about a 1977 interview in High Times magazine in which Nugent allegedly detailed elaborate steps taken to avoid the Vietnam draft. While not denying that he made such statements, Nugent dismissed their veracity, claiming that when confronted with 'glazed-eyed' interviewers, he would "make stories up." He explained that he did not go to Vietnam because had a 1 year student deferment. When questioned, he admitted that he had "not wanted to get his ass blown off in Vietnam," but made note of a tour he made with the USO in 2004 to Fallujah and Afghanistan as support of his assertion that "I am not a coward." He also said that "Because I failed to serve in Vietnam, I feel an obligation now, to do everything I can to support those defending our freedom. Do I feel guilt and embarrassment? Yes." I tried paraphrasing in several ways, but I found it difficult to do without subtly changing the tone of his response. --Moonriddengirl 11:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Your proposed edit looks fine to me. As an aside to Crockspot, the issue isn't one of 'supporting the troops' or 'supporting the military'. It's not hard to imagine that Nugent has always supported the military, while at the same time it isn't hard to imagine that he went to great lengths to avoid actually serving (in Viet Nam in any case). The real issue is one of supporting the decision to go to war and supporting the choices to continue those wars. In that regard Nugent's words and deeds related to Viet Nam and Iraq have been notable both in their own right as well as in contrast to each other. We owe our readers a fair accounting of each. Ossified 14:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • So I guess this seems like consensus then. :) Well done. --Moonriddengirl 15:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I've closed the BLP on this article. We seem to have consensus that is consistent with BLP policy. --Moonriddengirl 13:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Good job everyone. I think we all come away from this learning a little something. Ossi, I think if you asked Ted about the decision to go to war in Vietnam, I think you might find that he was supportive of that as well. A lot of people feel that Vietnam was "the right war at the right time", though they do not agree with how it was managed and fought. But that will take us WAY off topic. Maybe another day and another place we can discuss that further. But we have to be careful when making comparisons and contrasts, because in the absence of a reliable source making those comparisons and contrasts, we veer into original research. - Crockspot 16:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I went ahead and added the section back in, with the title "Regarding military service". It seems an appropriate and neutral title, and fits with the style of the previous sections. - Crockspot 16:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • OK, I cleaned it up and wikified it, I think it is in a good place in the article now as well. I hope everyone agrees. - Crockspot 17:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm cool. The Viet Nam conversation over beers though. I can't type fast enough for a conversation, and you know there's bound to be lots of conversation over a subject like that ;) Ossified 00:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I just added a reference to the "FTN" lyrics. Can anyone find any references to the "numerous commendations..." Ted's received? If so, please add. If not, I'll come back in a week or so and edit that particular trivia item out unless I can find references myself. Ossified 02:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing upgrades

As I have time, I'll be upgrading the citations throughout the article. See User:Crockspot#Cite rehab methodology for an explanation of what I will be doing. - Crockspot 17:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I have an issue with the two last external links (newshounds, Rutland Herald). Newshounds is not considered a reliable source, and the material at that link tends to be derogatory, so I do not think it meets WP:EL standards. The Rutland Herald is a reliable source, and it references the pertinent details of the newshounds content, so here is what I propose: We make the Rutland Herald article a citation, and place it in the "Regarding military service" section, as a footnote to the sentence that ends with "Vietnam draft". (It seems to be a good source for that sentence). Then we remove both of those links from "External links". Any thoughts? - Crockspot 17:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

If anybody wants to incorporate this stuff into the article, here it is:

  • Nugent once autographed a fan's arm with a bowie knife after the fan had requested it.[2]
  • In the film Ocean's Eleven, Danny Ocean, played by George Clooney, makes a crack at Rusty's outrageously colored shirt (played by Brad Pitt), remarking: "Ted Nugent called; he wants his shirt back." In Italy, since Ted Nugent is not well known there, this line is dubbed with Elton John instead of Nugent.
  • On his 1996 album Wally World, folk/satire singer Wally Pleasant included the track "The Day Ted Nugent Killed All The Animals" chronicling a fictional hunting rampage by Nugent.
  • Ska punk band Goldfinger has recorded a song called "FTN" (abbreviating Fuck Ted Nugent) based on his treatment of animals. The song is a bonus track on the band's 2002 album, Open Your Eyes.

--Tom 14:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] list of nicknames?

The list of nicknames in the intro to the article seems unnecessary and random. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it in other articles, and the reference given doesn't mention nicknames.

I found this article by hitting the random article link, and I don't know much about the subject, but since he's apparently a controversial figure and I saw so much discussion here regarding other changes, I wasn't sure if I should just delete the list. Are his nicknames significant in some way of which I'm not aware? I usually only make minor grammar and spelling changes.  :o) elizabeth8338 21:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] threatened to kill obama and clinton

where's the mention of this? at a recent concert he said for barack obama to "suck on a gun," sounds like a death threat to me. why is this crazy person not in prison? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.228.52 (talk) 23:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious? I mean, come on! First of all, please cite a source for your allegation. Secondly, if this merits inclusion, then a lot of other articles need to be edited as well. Bill Maher's, for instance. I mean, he did wish that a suicide bomber had successfully assassinated the Vice President in Afghanistan. The Obama comment (if it ever happened), is not notable in and of itself, as people say things like this all the time. And as for why he is not in prison. I know you are joking on this one. Prison?!?!?! GROW UP! People do not get sent to prison for hurting someone else's feelings or saying something mean. Also, I don't believe it is up to you to judge the state of Mr. Nugent's sanity. I just had to put my two cents in, as the above statement is ridiculous. SpudHawg948 (talk) 11:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. Ted may rock as much as he can, I may even like his music, but if it depended on me I'd terrorize his ass down to hell. 201.9.137.102 (talk) 17:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

THIS STORY SHOULD BE POSTED HERE IS THE LINK

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2007/08/24/ted-nugent-threatens-to-kill-barack-obama-and-hillary-clinton-during-vicious-onstage-rant/ Rolling Stone is a reliable source —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.121.59 (talk) 07:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[[[Apparently the people at Rolling Stone have forgotten how to read. Ted stated that Obama and Hilary could "suck on his gun", not much different than telling them to suck on one of his body parts, yet it's considered a threat. I knew Rolling Stone had become an unreliable magazine, but didn't know until just now that they had become a worthless rag. If any of you don't know the difference between saying "hey, you can suck on my gun" versus "hey, I'm going to kill you" then maybe you need to get a dictionary and look up the word "threaten". Pretty sad people. --198.69.0.253 (talk) 21:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link to a video of Ted Nugent's comments concerning Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton: [5] We can view it and judge for ourselves whether Mr. Nugent's remarks are actually threatening, or merely the imbecilic rantings of a strutting, posing popinjay. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.132.32 (talk) 07:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

"Since the early 1990s Nugent has become both popular and criticized for his conservative beliefs…." He's been popular/criticized longer than that. Off the top of my head, I can think of a 1988 Creem interview in which he's pretty clear about his beliefs. I would venture to guess he's been known for his conservatism longer than that. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Goldfinger?

I am removing the Goldfinger section. There are a great many people who have feuds with Ted Nugent, and most of them are more well known than Goldfinger. The blurb about them contributes absolutely nothing to the substance of the article, and I don't feel it merits inclusion.--SpudHawg948 (talk) 11:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Since when has High Times qualified as any kind of "reliable" source...

...for an encyclopedia article. This isn't a "he said/she said" political differences source dispute like Fox News vs. CBS news or something of the sort. HT is a well-known special interest magazine mostly unconcerned with news that doesn not pertain to it's one issue of interest (drug culture) and therefore is a HIGHLY dubious choice for use in attempting to establish a reliable reference source for a FACT-based article (NPOV alert: yes, this pertains to the unfounded and moronic draft-dodging tall tale).

You might as well start including weekly world news stories about the world's fattest cat on Wikipedia.

-Troy.