Talk:Te Aro

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 move nominated articles here or not? see discussion below 2 older discussion 3 Courtenay Place Article Major work done 4 A transport section?

[edit] move nominated articles here or not? see discussion below

[edit] older discussion

hard to believe this article doesn't have a talk page but there ya go. This article is crammed with unsubstantiated claims, purporting to be fact. Where are the references and verifiability? play the rules you expect others too, if you're going to be so deletionist. The Courtenay Quarter/Place community of interest is significant in its own right, but really, none of us care enough to be bothered with the small mindedness that goes on here for more than a passing phase. You guys wouldnt know what consensus was if you fell over it in the streeet. I suggest you go and READ the rules and guidelines if you want to be so precious about them. But then it is the upside down under part of th e planet isnt it. Maybe you should go and improve the search engine in this place, make it geospatially enabled, Te Aro never showed in any search i did.. Take a long hard look at your own work guys, before messing with others in such ugly style, DISCUSSION is supposed to take place FIRST.. moza 09:27, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Whom are you attacking? I wrote the initial version of this article, and yes there's plenty of unsubstantiated stuff here, but I guess that's how most articles on Wikipedia start. This version provides a seed from which a more encyclopedic article can be grown. I see it as part of the evolutionary process of an article. But I am not "deletionist" nor am I small-minded or precious about rules and guidelines. In fact I have no idea what the majority of your comment is in reference to. Ben Arnold 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

apologies to you are due then, sorry. It probably has nothing to do with you, and I appreciate your article and its contribution to this space. It has its rightful place in a variety of ways. I seem to be having difficulty in operating that way myself though; articles in my mind should be allowed to exist through 'childhood' and 'adolescence' to 'maturity'. If they dont fit they can be moulded by collaborative efforts of interested parties. I have entered this space and made a few errors that created some very bad feelings all round, and now anything i do is likely to be cut apart or deleted ahead of any discussion. I am strongly inclusionist for the growth phase of an article, and now i'm just commenting and hardly editing at all; whats the point if it doesnt have perceived value? I know of hundreds of articles with seriously WRONG content, and my comment was mostly to that editor. My thinking was that if you're going to bot off 80 articles ALL with the same outrageous errors, then shouldn't you be off fixing them, rather than offensively playing with my edits? seems unbalanced to me.. I'm a demographer and a social data miner, a digital cartographer and a behavioural predictive modeller, and I perceive at least two subsets to your article, and a pile more that I am thinking about. I had the insight today that Courtenay Place is likely the busiest human area in NZ. {persons per square metre per minute/hr/day/wk/month } I have personally sampled the area many times since 1989 and at a high rate since 2001. Communities change, and at diiferent rates. Our 2001 based model is less effective in areas that have phenomenal growth such as Courtenay Place. Courtenay Place has metamorphed to mean 'and surrounding areas' to local residents, business, and visitors. Courtenay Quarter is an official tourism device, one of four, to create quadrants of 'communities of interest' that have creative and other distinct attributes. Merging those into an already extensive article of the suburb that contains them, may well destroy the opportunity of having good articles created and edited by a bunch of enthusiastic people that have 'meat for the sandwich' and images to illustrate the points. Instead of creating ever yet more effort and bad taste by removing content, and that includes merging as its bound to lose from the transition, and forcing discussion, I believe that discussing issues on the appropriate talk page is much more effective. So the situation is that two articles that I created out there have pointers to this talk page, that didnt even exist when i came here, and has zero dialogue about the point intended; merge. I created Courtenay Place to provide a location for info that was not accepted on Ben Hana, (it was more general) and not fitting for Te Aro, (that was full enough). I'm sick of the crappy treatment I have received and mostly from Kiwis who at least could show some loyalty to their own, but fed off the feeding frenzy, and even instigated it. It took me a while to figure out what happens here and the counter methods, and its of interest to me still, but to work it must have MORE positive than negative transactions. Wagging the tail of the tiger should only be done by the dummies, we should know better. That refers to afl/vfl process whereby a small sample of wikipedians get to vote on a contentious article often before it has been discussed at all. Nominating it creates a feeding frenzy of deletionists, even when it may be able to be transwikified in some way. My reading of the rules/policies/advice/history indicates that Courtenay Place is HUGELY more 'notable' than say Waikouaiti.... The Embassy theatre alone probably seats more people daily than the official 2001 population of that tiny township. I even created a specific artwork that was repeatedly removed, now this area is Wellington's and probably NEW ZEALANDS cente of ART... Our most precious art treasures are on display for tourists to visit them in Courtenay Quarter, not Te Aro, sorry, I love Te Aro, but the objective data is that Positively Wellington Tourism created an extremely successful international branding that worked!!! People travel to Courtenay Quarter, most of them wouldnt know that they were in Te Aro. Courtenay place was broadcast to the entire world for many hours, is there anywhere else in Te Aro that happened? if so, it deserves an article of its own as well.good luck guys moza 12:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think there's value in a Courtenay <something> article for all the reasons you give. Maybe we should look at merging Courtenay Place and Courtenay Quarter. After all Cuba Street is notable as the famous bohemian centre of Wellington. Manners Mall, Willis Street, Vivian Street, Embassy Theatre and Te Papa are other features of Te Aro that may be notable. Apparently Haining Street was historically a place of early Chinese immigration and police-sanctioned opium dens. That's notable.

Te Aro is a clearly distinct area of Wellington City. It is Wellington's entertainment district, it's Wellington's heart. And usefully it corresponds (roughly) to a distinct Statistics New Zealand area unit: Willis Street-Cambridge Terrace — so demographic statistics are readily available.

How would you feel about making Courtenay Quarter a section within Courtenay Place, or vice versa? I guess calling the main article Courtenay Place would make it easier to link to. People are more likely to link to the street than the "quarter". It would also be consistent with street-named articles in other cities.

The first sentence of Courtenay Place could say:

Courtenay Place is the main street of Courtenay Quarter in the Wellington inner-city suburb of Te Aro.

Ben Arnold 23:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I gotta say thanks Ben, an awesome response, excellent display of positive social values as I understand this place ought to be. I am happy with your suggestions, anything that strives for improvement is acceptable to me. I find it hard to recognise that sometimes, i must admit, and I'm human and open to mis-interpreting other peoples actions, and thats a major problem here for me. So putting that all aside, and prioritizing whats best for wiki and its users, I'll just agree with whatever actually works! Its also true though, that anyone can edit at any time, so prepare for a longish period of establishing what should or shouldnt be done, and perhaps dont expect too much, it might all be perceived as promotional activity and messed with. There is also the possibilty of a known vandal in Auckland having another round of vengeance attacks when his disorder returns, if thats even true, truth is a strange beast that I struggle with in this place. yin and yang and all that, perhaps thats the reason for our fascination. moza 09:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Demographics and Geography. I have the data and I'm licensed to use it, and its updated quite frequently, so I could provide the objective truth on occassion. The census data resolves down to meshblock, and I have analysed that in a radius around the Embassy in the past, its quite possible to count at least 75 individual attributes of the aggregated population within a specified buffer boundary around some meshblocks of interest, that could be as small as 100 people but likely to be several hundred. (I used several radii in the case of the Embassy, 1min, 5 min, 10 minute walking distances, called catchments). It can be in a circle, a line, a rectangle, a polygon, and with any specifed buffer in metres around those. In about a years time we will have the 2006 data, and then the truth will be revealed about the full extent of the changes. At this time I could deliver the 3 data points for 91, 96, 2001, and that may show the beginning of the trend. The aggregate meshblocks are free on line as Area Unit data, a good proxy for suburb, but only sometimes. I was part of the international team (I ran the NZ company) that built that website functionality for Statistics New Zealand, and its good to see it available as a national resource of social data, that can be mined geographically by anyone at anytime. Statistics NZ WebMap http://www.nowwhere.com.au/StatsNZ/Locator/Default.aspx. Probably good to keep in perspective though, that most of the people in Aro or Courtenay likely feel that each other are worlds apart. A bit like Porirua and Whitby, its called vanity addressing, and it takes the system a long while to catch up with reality. Note that the centroid for Te Aro is way over near the centroid for Aro Valley. Its probably because demographers considered population centres more than geographical components, and the cbd had a much lower historical population, rising quickly in recent years. That's in part due to the lower cost of preparing high rise for residential to earthquake regulations (compared with commercial), and the over-supply of office space following the shrinkage of government. Interesting though, to note that we are the only two discussing this here, and I think that speaks for itself. maybe that means the articles are unimportant, or maybe it means most people cant be bothered 'fighting'. Given my experience with the ratio of visitors to comments, on my own sites, it probably means the latter. I cant remember ever having a negative comment, and I have plenty of positive, so that supports my view i think. moza 09:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Courtenay Place Article Major work done

ok now we have a real article, lets beat it into shape, no more trivial pursuits. This article links to many nz categories pages, some of which I had to create to fulfil the intent of wiki for NZ. So now I learn about categories and how they work. There has been a category for streets and squares all along!!! as far as i can tell this article has more research and cross referencing than most, and is in need of cosmetic adjustments. Auckland was a bit ahead of us in this guys, lets pull together now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wellington There is plenty of room for buildings and areas of significance for all to work on. The Embassy Theatre is worthy of it's own page. One of the things I notice when i research topics such as this, is the lack of NZ pages about notable New Zealanders. Imagine if the CourtenayPlace.com street scroll worked like this one in Auckland: Street Scroll Thats the best functionality I've seen for such a purpose. moza 19:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A transport section?

I was just looking at this article as I wished to add mentions about the Te Aro Extension railway that operated 1893-1917 and the Wellington tramway system that had lines through Te Aro for a number of decades, but I wasn't quite sure where to fit it into the article. Maybe a transport section would be useful? I would've added one myself but I don't really know enough about transportation in Wellington beyond the railways and tramways, but I figured someone with more knowledge could mention other modes of transport and expand on a current line in the article that mentions the "long-proposed and much-protested Inner City Bypass". Thoughts? - Axver 06:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Axver, good on ya, I dont know much either, but i would photograph a tram from that era if someone points me to one. Just add whatever you can, and we can all have a part in beating it into shape.moza 13:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)