Talk:Taymyr Autonomous Okrug

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There is something odd in the population numbers. For example, the city of Norilsk is located well inside the Taymyr Okrug, and has a population of about 140,000, according to some sources even as much as 175,000 [1]. You can verify the location from maps, e.g. [2], or from a weather info page[3]). So, shouldn't we mention the city of Norilsk in the text? Although, admittedly, it would seem a bit inconsistent with the overall population figure. 130.188.8.9 15:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Norilsk is located on the territory of Krasnoyarsk Krai, not on the territory of Taymyr Autonomous Okrug (the weather page is simply wrong; see, for example, Norilsk entry in Britannica or a map in any decent atlas). Dudinka is the administrative center of Taymyria, and its population comprises almost 70% of the total population of this automonous okrug. I have, however, removed it from the Demographics section. The list of all settlements is located at Administrative divisions of Taymyr Autonomous Okrug; there is no need to duplicate that information in the main article. Thanks for your interest.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Did you really check the location from a decent map? The Encarta map (for which I gave a link above) shows clearly, when zooming around Dudinka, that Norilsk is well inside the boundaries of Taymyr. Perhaps you didn't realize that Krasnoyarsk Krai is a name for a larger region of Russia, which actually includes the whole Taymyr Autonomous Okrug, and therefore also Norilsk? 130.188.8.9 17:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

And you can verify the location of Norilsk also from this map [4]. Are both of the maps wrong? Please explain your POV that Norilsk is not in Taymyria. 130.188.8.9 17:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Now I found even some more 'proof' for Norilsk being definitely in the Taymyr Autonomous Okrug. There are 'Yellow pages' in the internet listing a large number of companies and organization located in Norilsk, see [5]. The mailing addresses tell clearly that Norilsk is located in the Taymyr Autonomous Okrug (in addition to being in Krasnoyarsk Krai, which contains Taymyr). It seems to me that the evidence is very clear, and that the article should be amended accordingly. 130.188.8.9 17:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

As someone who wrote a good portion of the articles on the administrative divisions of Russia, I know perfectly well that Krasnoyarsk Krai includes both Taymyria and Evenkia. All three, however, are considered to be separate federal subjects, which is why all three have Wikipedia articles (and subarticles) of their own. It will, of course, be a different story when they officially merge in less than three months.

What I didn't specify was what I meant by the "territory". From looking at the maps you provided, it would indeed seem that Norilsk is a part of Taymyria. However, the city itself is under direct jurisdiction of Krasnoyarsk Krai, not Taymyria (check the references in administrative divisions of Krasnoyarsk Krai to verify that; the Russian Census data alone, which are available online, will do nicely). Saying that Norilsk is located in Taymyria is just as incorrect as saying that Moscow is located in Moscow Oblast—it certainly looks that way when you look at the general map, but it's nevertheless not true. Any decent atlas would show you the jurisdiction borders—most online maps just don't cut it; they are too generic.

I hope this is sufficient to answer your questions. Please let me know if I can help any further.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I understand this nuance. But looking at the mailing addresses of all those companies and organizations in Norilsk [6], it seems that it is perfectly correct to say that Norilsk is, indeed, located in the Taymyr Autonomous Okrug. Moreover, in my opinion it is misleading to present such low population numbers for the Taymyr region, while the Norilsk industrial area has a population many times larger! I really think that one should in any case mention that Norilsk is geographically located inside the Taymyr region, even if is directly under Krasnoyarsk jurisdiction. 130.188.8.9 18:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The population numbers are grouped in the same way as the folks who ran the 2002 Russian Census grouped them. Grouping them any differently would constitute original research—a big no-no in Wikipedia. One may not like the way groupings were done, but Wikipedia's goal is to present the facts, not to draw conclusions and/or fix things for others. Also, since Norilsk is a closed city, its socioeconomic connections with surrounding Taymyria are most likely minimal. In any case, all this is not going to matter starting next year.

As for the second part of your question, I have nothing against mentioning that Norilsk is in effect an enclave of Krasnoyarsk Krai in Taymyria—that's a useful fact—but that should really go to the article on Norilsk, not in the Demographics section here.

And in conclusion, would you consider creating an account in Wikipedia? It's quick, easy, the benefits are numerous, and it's just easier for people to talk with someone who has a name or a nick instead of a string of numbers.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)