Talk:Tautology (rhetoric)

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[edit] Townsville City

Is this considered a tautology? (Town-town town). I'd like to know before I perhaps edit it in. Zombequin (talk) 08:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of page

This page was created by cut-and-paste from tautology, followed by editing to cut down to the relevant part. See that article for history, and talk:tautology for prior discussions. --Trovatore 02:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this article needlessly degrades tautological tautologies.
That's a really great joke. Did you come up with it all by yourself? 71.16.224.178
Let's not be so sarcastic with one another, nor waste each other's time with silliness. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant with Pleonasm article

I'd like to suggest that this page stick to a general discussion of rhetorical tautology and then branch to more developed articles on specific types of such tautology, or related concepts. In particular, much of what is discussed on this page is not only covered in more depth over at pleonasm but arguably doesn't quite fit the two almost identical definitions laid out for rhetorical tautology at the top of this article. Not all forms of redundancy are tautological. I'm not a logician by profession, but I think that all pleonasms and tautologies are redundancies (at least in theory), and all tautologies are pleonastic by definition, but not vice versa. What makes a tautology tautological is that it "says the same thing twice". What makes a pleonasm pleonastic is that it says more (sometimes much more, in which case it is logorrheic as well as pleonastic) than it needs to, ergo tautologies in speech and writing a simply a subset of pleonasms. But I'd be happy to entertain other views on this. My main point is that the two articles overlap far too much, and either need to be differenced further or merged. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] - 02:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Cf. the Redundancy (language) article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] - 04:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Circumlocution is also defined similarly. I think an expert is needed, or at least someone who can investigate where these words come from and so on...124.189.98.53 23:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constantly Deleted Pop Culture Quote

The following quote is constantly being deleted without justification by anonymous editor 209.101.224.34. If you feel the quote in question inappropriate, please justify yourself here. If you find that it has again been removed, please revert until a consensus is reached here.

“ United States President George W. Bush, before the Unity Journalists of Color convention on August 6, 2004, is quoted as saying, "Tribal sovereignty means that, it's sovereign. You're a -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And, therefore, the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." [1] ”

This is a perfect pop culture example of a tautology. It appears here exactly as transcribed by the U.S. Government, with emphasis added, as hyperlinked above. The hyperlink points to a 2004 press release by the Whitehouse Government website. Winick88 01:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This is just simple redundancy of speech; it isn't a tautology. I'm removing this because it obviously stands out as being inappropriate, never mind that it involves George Bush and is thus inherently prone to attracting undue attention around these parts. Chris Cunningham 10:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is indeed a simple redundancy of speech. I agree with you on this. That is why it is a tautology. The definition on the page now states that "a tautology is a use of redundant language in speech or writing, or, put simply, 'saying the same thing twice'." The statement stands on its own, and the reader is free to draw conclusions as they may. For example, one might infer that this tautology is intentional, others may not. It isn't "inherently prone to attracting undue attention around these parts." Winick88 02:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see that the quote adds anything at all. It is amusing and silly and indicative of something about Dubya's reasoning powers, but it does precisely zero to educate anyone on the meaning of "tautology". — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 10:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of "Pop Culture Examples of Tautology" is not necessarily to educate anyone on the meaning of tautology, but to merely provide examples of it. Otherwise, I don't see why your argument wouldn't apply to the other examples listed beneath this heading. Winick88
The tribal sovereignty quote was removed without justification by unsigned editor 198.28.129.127 on June 13, 2007. I am restoring the quote. Winick88 02:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The tribal sovereignty quote was again removed without justification by Moheroy (talk). I am restoring the quote.Winick88 (talk) 03:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The fact that five unrelated people spontaneously removed this quote (which is a bad example of a tautology and probably motivated by a desire to mock Bush), and only Winick88 ever adds it back, shows that there is no consensus to keep it. Therefore I am removing it. —Jemmytc 18:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some given examples of RAS syndrome aren't tautologies or even redundant acronyms

"Gigaflops per second", "RPMs per minute" and "RPMs per second" are not tautologies, they are rates of accelaration, so I think they should be removed. Also I don't see how RPMs per second is an oxymoron, it's just different units of acceleration from RPMs per minute. If a user of these wasn't refering to acceleration, that would be just gibberish, not redundant acronym expansion, because each expansion of "per second" changes the meaning, ie. from (angular) velocity -> acceleration -> acceleration of acceleration etc. On second thoughts, this section could just be changed to a single link to RAS_Syndrome...

86.14.228.238 23:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I like the second solution better. Make the article lean and link to other topics as needed. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 10:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I did so. I noticed my own tautology: "tautologies or even redundant acronyms" is one because redundant acronyms are a subset of tautologies. ah well... 86.14.228.238 23:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is there such a word as "impliedly"?

This word appears in the paragraph which starts "The Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution", and I find it suspect; surely it should be "implicitly"? 193.122.47.170 21:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tautology and Frege's "Use and Mention" as it applies to the Shahada

I welcome the individual(s) posting to the shahada bullet in the Pop Culture section to discuss why, if there is "no god but God" how the mention (or reference, bedeutung) of "god" can be different, in any language or cultural context than that used for the formal name (or sense, sinn) of "God" without invoking pluralism (shirk). In a wider context, I would like to see an informed discussion of how "Über Sinn und Bedeutung" applies to rhetorical tautologies, real and apparent. While Frege tended to deal, formally, with logicial tautologies, I do believe there is application here, though it may require that the use of semantics be brought in as well.

203.118.10.2 04:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Los Angeles Angels

This wouldn't be an example of a tautology: it's a seperate reference to a team nickname and the name of the city they're based in. "The Angels, of Los Angeles".

(Additionally, they're now the Los Angeles - Anaheim Angels, if I recall correctly.)

69.95.74.178 05:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Windows NT

Another well known example to many computer users is Windows 2000, which stated on its splash screen that it used "NT Technology" (New Technology Technology).

I deleted this because Microsoft has said that NT doesn't stand for anything before Windows 2000 came out. - furrykef (Talk at me) 13:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[citation needed]. And what about after it came out? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't really need to back that up with a source, because that text is not essential to the article and the point is already perfectly clear by that point anyway. I don't think it adds terribly much to the article whether or not it is correct that "NT" doesn't stand for anything. But if you insist, you can have a look at Windows NT#'NT' designation. But I think if this were to be added back in, it might be better to add it to RAS Syndrome instead, since it's an example of that. - furrykef (Talk at me) 02:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Don't take {{Fact}} on a talk page too seriously, it's just a shorthand for "Where is it that 'Microsoft has said' this?" I wasn't expecting <ref name="Microsoft.com2007">{{Cite web...}}</ref> as a response or anything. My main question was about the timing, but your RAS point actually moots the entire issue, really. Good call. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schwarzeneggar

Is Arnold's last name a tautology? "Schwarz" and "neggar" both seem similar to words meaning "black", so his name would be "Black black". I'm no linguist, so I'm not sure if this is legit or not... Lurlock 20:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah...right! Or it could be that Schwarzenegger's ancestors were Swiss and hailed from Schwarzenegg - between Unterlangenegg and Oberlangenegg - about 25km south-east of Berne. I'm no linguist...but which one sounds more likely‽ -=0 Steelwool 0=- 23:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 28 Days Quote

The character might say it's a "tautology," but her quote is actually an example of circular reasoning. (Note, though that the reason the sky is blue is not what she states!) I think this ought to be removed, since it's a bad example. YorkBW 15:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I would have to agree - it is perhaps more suited to the entry on logical tautologies (which is not very reader friendly!). Same with the Ayn Rand example... Go ahead, remove it. -=0 Steelwool 0=- Steelwool 23:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tuna fish

Tuna fish is not a tautology since there are [Tuna (disambiguation)|non-fish tunas] (e.g; pears). --Belg4mit (talk) 23:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irony

Currently the first sentence of this article reads: "In rhetoric, a tautology is an unnecessary (and usually unintentional) repetition of meaning, using different words that effectively say the same thing twice (often originally from different languages)."

Heheheheh. —Jemmytc 20:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

FFS, this is not irony, it is self referential humor. There is NOTHING ironic about an article on redundancy being redundant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.238.200 (talk) 00:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I think though, it would be verging on irony if we managed to have a discussion about what irony is on a page about redundancy when there is a perfectly good discussion about what irony is on the irony page.Et Amiti Gel (talk) 02:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Small baby puppy dogs

A BBC Breakfast presenter (Bill Turnbull?) once referred to "small baby puppy dogs", "puppies" would have sufficed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 (talk) 14:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third paragraph

The third paragraph of the article seems rather incoherent. It's more like a collection of loosely related statements than a logically flowing paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.5.68 (talk) 09:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematical tautologies

I think this needs a reference: "Mathematical equations, such as E = mc2, are not tautologies." Can anyone supply a reference? Otherwise it sounds like an opinion that needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeyn1 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and have changed it slightly to 'scientific equations'. Strictly speaking, mathematical statements such as '2 + 2 = 4' are tautologies in the logical sense, as they are necessarily true; statements about the nature of the physical world (like 'the speed of light = 300,000 km/s') are generally not. 'E = mc2' is a special case, which I am not sufficiently qualified to judge - I'll leave it in for the time being, but I'd appreciate the input of a physicist on whether that equation is actually necessarily true, or just happens to be so. Terraxos (talk) 15:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)