Talk:Tarpan

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Contents

[edit] IUCN Link: Equus ferus

The links had been removed, because it was about the Przewalski horse subspecies. But that is not true. It is about all Eurasian wild horses, the Przewalski horse is also mentioned, and linked to the Przewalski subspecies page on the IUCN red list. See text from that link: "This assessment is for the wild horse, not for the domesticated horse or any of its feral populations. Of the three subspecies that lived in historical times (since 1500 AD) two are Extinct while the third survives only in captivity or as highly managed introduced or reintroduced populations. Wild animals survived in eastern Europe (Poland, Belarus, Lithuania and Germany) through the eighteenth century, with the last wild individuals killed in 1814 (Novak 1999). The subspecies, known as the Plains Tarpan, lived on the steppes of southern Russia and the Ukraine. Its disappearance is attributed to interbreeding with domestic horses; hunting by people for sport and to protect their mares and forage; and the rapid settlement and cultivation of the steppes in the ninereenth century (Novak 1999). The last known wild individual died in Ukraine in 1879 (Novak 1999). Przewalski's Horse (E. ferus przewalskii) is the only subspecies still extant, but only as 'captive' populations. The last know sighting of animals in the wild was made in 1969 in Mongolia. All subsequent expenditions to find animals in both Mongolia and China have failed to find any evidence for their continued survival in the wild. For further details, see the account for this subspecies." Wild Horse (text from this link): IUCN Red List of Threatened Species: Equus ferus Przewalski Horse: IUCN Red List of Threatened Species: Equus ferus ssp. przewalskii Pmaas 22:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the name

ru:Тарпан gives a Turkic etymology of the name, unfortunately without reference. I can imagine a meaning of "flying forward", but I have more difficulty believing the term means "to be born in full gallop", that sounds a little too picturesquely Sapir-Whorfish. There is also an anecdote about Tarpan-hunting I would like to quote here, but unfortunately also given without source. dab (ᛏ) 11:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The tarpan's closest living relative

The tarpan article has this to say:

"The Hucul pony living in the Carpathian mountains is arguably the most direct descendant of the Tarpan."

But the article on horse says:

"The Wild Polish Horse or Konik more closely resembles the tarpan than any other living horse."

Which is right? Or is that point disputed? If anyone actually knows, or at least knows enough to know where to look, a little reconciliatory research could be in order.

Both can be right. Being the most direct descendant does not mean it has to resemble the tarpan the most. The Konik does resemble in appearance the Tarpan the most. But (and I don't know enough on this breed) the Hucul pony might be genetically more pure and therefor the most direct descendant. As Koniks are tarpans' descendants crossbred with other breeds, while the text on the Hucul pony says they are only rarely cross-bred with domestic horses. Besides that, the taxonomy of the horse subspecies is still not completely clear. There is still need for a lot of (genetic) research, including for horse breeds like the Konik, Hucul pony, Exmoor Pony, Sorraia, etc. Peter Maas 19:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The "Hucul theory" is given without source and reason or evidence. What strikes me is the resemblance of the physical features, esp. the head, of the "only one" photograph with those of "Koniks" I have seen repeatedly over a number of years. That is the most convincing piece of evidnece I have come across so far.
However, microtaxonomy is a tricky field (I remember reading a PhD thesis on conservation genetics years ago, dealing with North African Wild Sheep [what is their name again in English ?] which warned against jumping to conclusions, so I am cautious). Even if now - long after they are gone - one usually distinguishes two subspecies of tarpans, and three of the Eurasian wild horse in historical times, I feel that is an oversimplification: how do sothern and western Europe fit into the picture, what degrees of anthropogenic gene flow do we have to count with since Antiquity, what regional populations should be recognozed at what times, to what degree do physical and genetic differences match etc. ?
The Journal "Proceedings Nat. Acad. Sc." had an interesting article years ago on the genetic genealogical tree of extant horse breeds, which showed a complicated picture...
Hippophile regards, Sophophilos: 147.142.186.54 (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Bottom line is simple, footnotes are good. Until then, everyone is just putting forth opinions! (smile). Basically, just remember to use proper wikiquette in tagging material you question, and remember the pillar of wikipedia: Neutral point of view. Montanabw(talk) 19:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Species vs breed

The opening para says Tarpan was a species, but the (very informative) taxonomy section describes it as being (in fact, if not by naming convention) a breed of horse. By the definition in species it sure looks like a breed. Perhaps we should use a more generic turn of phrase than the meaning-laden "species" in the opening para. Perhaps we should change "The last specimen of this species died" to "The last tarpan died", or something like that? (note: I'm not proposing we get into the breed/species matter in the opening paragraph, that would just be clunky and uninformative). Darryl Revok 21:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of avoiding the entire controversy. If you can do a smooth rewrite to clean it up in that respect, go for it! Montanabw 22:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extinction date

Why does it say that the last specimen died in 1918 or 1919 when the taxobox says it became extinct in 1879? ??????? Thylacinus cynocephalus (talk) 00:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Back-breeding" projects

I just changed the order in which the two projects appeared in the article. Not "knowing" which of the two is or was "better", and not interested in such judgement (at least not here and noew), it is obvious that the Heck project should be listed first for reasons of alphabetic and esp. chronological order (provided the dates given in the respective WP articles are accurate). 147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)