Talk:Tarot

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Contents

[edit] Welcome to the Tarot article!

Welcome to the Tarot article. Please be aware that this article is ONLY about the Tarot cards themselves, not the various uses for Tarot cards. It is NOT about games played with Tarot cards, nor about Tarot Reading. References to games or tarot reading in the article should be very short, and only included where relevant to the evolution of the cards' design.

  • In-depth description of Tarot reading should be put in the Tarot reading article
  • In-depth detail of games played with Tarot cards should appear in the Tarocchi or Tarot_(game) articles.

There are several active editors that have strong interest in this article, and including non-verifiable content is likely to be quickly reverted. So make sure you include references for new content! --Surturz 07:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

I feel that there should be a link to the Tarotpedia, (www.tarotpedia.com) which will provide far more information than any of the other web sites listed Alchemicalegg 19:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the URL you provide doesn't seem to respond.--P Todd 00:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Scratch that... I corrected the error in the URL (an extra 'o').--P Todd 00:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


Folks, the links I added earlier were not "spam links". They were links that added to the encyclopedic content of the article, and gave editors information and ideas for improving the article. Deleting them, and adding links to fortune telling sites and commercial vendors, is not going to make the article better.

The links I added were:

Andy's Playing Cards is one of the most complete and linked-to card sites on the 'Net. He has sections on cards from all over the world. The site includes maps, evolutionary relationship diagrams, glossaries, etc. There are about thirty pages on Tarot history with geographic distribution maps, tables, charts and many, many card images. Before deleting the link, you may want to look at all the pages that start on the Classic Tarots page.

The Hermitage Tarot history site has encyclopedic essays on the history of Tarot cards. It includes a card by card history of each trump card. It also covers Tarot classification, and a comparison of decks from each Tarot pattern family. Look at the Milanese pattern family for an example.

tarot•pedia is a Wiki tarot encyclopedia that operates much like Wikipedia. To my mind, it's much more balanced than most of the articles on Wikipedia since it gives equal weight to card games, divination, and other uses for Tarot cards.

Tarot History is a new site, but is off to a nice start. So far it covers three important historical decks: the Cary-Yale Visconti deck, the Visconti Sforza deck, and the Jacques Vieville deck.

None of these are commercial sites, sites offering tarot reading for a fee, or sites presenting cartomantic interpretations that are subjective to the author of the site. I could make a site saying a card has a certain cartomantic meaning, but who's to say my interpretation is right or wrong? We have to stick to encyclopedic content, not primary source material.

- Parsa 06:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC) All the above links are valid as to the content of this article. They should be included. I also have another proposed tarot history link Michael's Tarot Notebook http://www.geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/ And yes, Taropedia IS more balanced than many of the Wikipedia articles. It has been included here before but deleted due to some false perception that Wikipedia articles should not link to other Wiki's. I know of no such Wikipedia policy Smiloid 22:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

here i give a great link to website with 900 rated and reviewed Tarot & Oracle decks what you think about including it: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.245.207 (talk) 08:09, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

- New view on tarot. Statistical analisis of divinations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.107.82.204 (talk) 09:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

I feel that before we think about adding a lot of content, we should think about the section titles and sub-titles. Agree? This is my initial suggestion. I'm the first person to change if I hear a more logical suggestion, so these are just an initial set of titles to get us going.

  • Tarot origins in Europe
- Tarot and early playing card history
- The origins of the Tarot (pack or deck? Are we going to be "anglo" or "american"? Hehe.)
- Early manuscript references to Tarot cards
- The spread and development of Tarot cards
  • Characteristics of Tarot cards
- Suit signs (Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese)
- The trump cards and the Fool
- Tarot nomenclature (names of cards, terms, etc.)
- Special features found in divinatory Tarot cards
  • Types of Tarot (decks/packs?)
- Florence and Venice -- early Tarot cards
- Milanese Tarot pattern -- Besançon, Marseille, Swiss (1JJ) --
- Bolognese Tarot pattern -- Rothschild, A. Hebreo, Tarocco Bolognese --
- Florence, Sicily and Genoa -- Rosenwald, Fortuna, Tarocco Siciliano
- Minchiate
- French and Belgian Tarot Patterns
- Later Austrian and French Tarock cards
- Divinatory decks (possibly with sections on those derived from Marseille and Waite, and those which are more unique varieties.)
  • Tarot card games
Intro to games and lead in to specific game articles (there will likely be more in the future than there are now)
- Games with 78 cards
- Games with 54 or fewer cards
- The order of the trumps (historically they were arranged several ways and often included other types of cards. Trump order was especially important in game play. Perhaps a table could be included.
Intro to tarot cartomancy and lead in to main article on that subject.
- Origins in France
- Occult Tarot terminology (Major arcana, minor arcana, card name substitutes (eg Heirophant), etc.)
(Don't know how much we want to put in this main article.)
  • Tarot iconography
- European archetypes in the Tarot trump cards
- Tarot symbolism and the Church
- Some occult interpretations (mostly from early authors in this article)
  • Tarot in literature
  • Tarot in popular culture
  • See also
  • (Further reading)
  • Notes
  • References
  • External links

If we can work with each other to turn this article into a featured article or even a good one, it will be a true accomplishment for Wikipedia.

--> Good article criteria

--> Featured article criteria

- Parsa 04:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


This structure isn't bad. I would edit it a bit for there is no need to repeat the word "Tarot" since that is explicit in the article. Perhaps the below?--P Todd 03:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
  • European Origins
- Early playing card history
- Tarot origins
- Early manuscript references
- Spread and development
  • Characteristics
- Suit signs (Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese)
- The trump cards and the Fool
- Nomenclature (names of cards, terms, etc.)
- Special features of divinatory cards
  • Deck types
- Florence and Venice -- early Tarot cards
- Milanese Tarot pattern -- Besançon, Marseille, Swiss (1JJ) --
- Bolognese Tarot pattern -- Rothschild, A. Hebreo, Tarocco Bolognese --
- Florence, Sicily and Genoa -- Rosenwald, Fortuna, Tarocco Siciliano
- Minchiate
- French and Belgian Tarot Patterns
- Later Austrian and French Tarock cards
- Divinatory decks (possibly with sections on those derived from Marseille and Waite, and those which are more unique varieties.)
  • Card games
Intro to games and lead in to specific game articles (there will likely be more in the future than there are now)
- Games with 78 cards
- Games with 54 or fewer cards
- The order of the trumps (historically they were arranged several ways and often included other types of cards. Trump order was especially important in game play. Perhaps a table could be included.
Intro to tarot cartomancy and lead in to main article on that subject.
- Origins in France
- Occult Tarot terminology (Major arcana, minor arcana, card name substitutes (eg Heirophant), etc.)
(Don't know how much we want to put in this main article.)
  • Iconography
- European archetypes in the Tarot trump cards
- Tarot symbolism and the Church
- Some occult interpretations (mostly from early authors in this article)
  • Literature references
  • Popular culture
  • See also
  • (Further reading)
  • Notes
  • References
  • External links

[edit] images

The Rider Waite images in this article, as well as similar ones, are colorized versions to avoid the US Games copyrights. It's my understanding that the black and white versions are in the public domain. Is it Wikipedia material to have these artificially doctored illustrations in the article? Smiloid 08:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you saying they shouldn't be there? I think they add greatly to the article. --Surturz 00:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I am very fond of the artistry of Pamela Coleman Smiith's designs, but they are copyrighted. Frankly, I think the article would be improved with more variety. I have a lot of historical (reproduction) decks, and when I get the chance I will scan some and post them here for people to look at and vote on. - Parsa 18:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the more variety in the images, the better --Surturz 00:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not the Rider Waite deck to which I object. It is the inclusion of colorized images which bothers me. Is this not a kind of "original research?" The History Channel, in the US, was criticized for including colorized footage of the First World War. I would object to any doctored versions of actual tarot decksSmiloid 09:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

You do have a point, but replacing the colourised images with black and white versions would diminish the article IMHO. Perhaps US Games could be approached to give permission to use one or two of the proper coloured images? "The Fool", "Four of Swords" and some other images are available from their website already... or are we likely to open a can of worms if we ask for permission? --Surturz 13:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I see two possible solutions here. We can still use these colorized images, but add some tag indicating up front that these are computer colorized replications. The other solution is to simply upload the US Games versions of these cards as, according to some Wikipedians, the US Games copyright is not actually valid in the US. See here for discussion on this copyright issue Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2007 February 11/ImagesSmiloid 01:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Btw, I still have my doubts, though, that the RWS deck with the (c) 1971 notice is PD in the States.Smiloid 01:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Smiloid, there's an excellent discussion of the copyright issues at http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/faq.htm -- but the upshot of the long argument is that there are colorized versions from 1910 that, while hard to find, have been found and scanned. ( http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/ ) This original 1909 artwork is by definition in the public domain (because of the date of publication.) US Games claim to the original 1909/1910 artwork is invalid in the USA. --SmartyPants09 (talk) 20:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, my suggestion would be to use scans of the original 1909 deck. The colors are a little faded now, but they are authentic first-publication scans. ( Available here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/xr/index.htm ). By definition *anything* created before 1922 is in the public domain. --SmartyPants09 (talk) 20:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tarot images, "more variety"

I've included the VS tarot to make sure we have a diversity of images. The article for that particular deck is literally begging for more links. I also think that those French suited decks commonly used for games should also appear here as such cards were alsoincluded in Kaplan's Encyclopedia's of TarotSmiloid 23:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well done, great additions. --Surturz 06:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Appears this is important new information from extant but obscure old sources.

Could somebody more knowledgeable than me take a look at http://trionfi.com/0/mi/00/ and define how much of the information therein is suitable for inclusion in our article? If I read it correctly, this is groundbreaking new understanding about the evolution of the cards, and the original intent about their symbolic structure and gameplay. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 18:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That site seems to be everywhere here. There is a lot of speculation, some of which appears to be unsubstantiatedSmiloid 03:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Assuredly a great deal of the conclusions are speculation, but the underlying source material is not speculation surely? How ever one might interpret the signifigance of the text, the words themselves are clearly information that is not speculation, but new information not covered otherwise. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 02:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you speaking of the "Meister Ingold revolution?"Smiloid 05:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Nevermind, I did a closer reading of the text in question, and it seems to be new source material to the writers of that web-page, not new source material to the field of historical cartomancy researchers in general. So not scientifically groundbreaking after all. Nevertheless perhaps there might be some subtle connections to earlier trumping gameplay and or more primitive decks that might be lifted (at least as a footnote) into the current article. Not sure, don't have the depth of research backround to make such a determination. If the connection is purely speculative, naturally mentioning it in the article on tarot, is delicate, to be sure. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 20:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


As one of the authors of the Trionfi.com page I wouldn't like to see the text of the Meister Ingold revolution included. The text is relevant for the "Imperatori cards phase" (ca. 1420 - 1455), which is a development prior to the Tarot card development (since ca. 1440) - as far we can say that on the base of few documents only. The context between Imperatori cards (their existence is given by a single line of text for the year 1423, then later 1443 - 1455 mentioned a few times), Karnöffel game (first mentioned 1426, then proceeded with some tradition), Michelino deck (oldest Tarot cards estimated to 1424/25) and the short Ingold text (1432; only a few sentences are relevant in the question) is from our side still in the research state and the argumentative representation is still in preparation. Privately spoken: I personally think, that there is a context between all 4 developments, but it is a complex theme - and from our side not ready. I think for the moment, that the Wikipedia article is better without that complicating debate.

Some suggestions:

The word Taraux and Tarocchi appeared in the year 1505 in France and in Ferrara for the first time - see short note and here, but only provisionally ... the French Tarot of Marseille started to our knowledge in mid of 17th century, ca. 150 years later (the current article is confusing in this matter).

From the point of history - it would be naturally to present the second half of 15th centure better. The appearance of the word "Trionfi" in documents is documented by us - not totally complete - at http://trionfi.com/0/e/00/, the second part would be a list of all extant cards of 15th/early 16th centuries (best with links to resources in the web) ... this is all, which forms our historical understanding of the process.

Generally the current line of Tarot history research and theory is formed by two opposing viewing points - one (orthodox) interpretation suggests the hypothesis, that there was an original and hidden-to-our-eyes Tarot ca. 1420 - 1440, at least ready ca. 1450 (that what we know as Tarot with 22 special cards and 56 small arcana), and this made a variety of other productions with differences to the original possible, and the alternative viewing point only accepts "real data" and finishes, that evidence for the 22-special-cards-versions appears rather late in 15th century. The crucial point in the debate is the socalled Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi, which is dated ca. 1452 and from the orthodox side is interpreted as evidence for a complete 22-special-cards-version, but from the "real-data"-fraction (that is more or less Trionfi.com) is argumented, that this deck knew 2 different painters and that 6 of the special cards were produced later. As in 1457 two Trionfi card decks are mentioned, which had only 70 cards, it is from this alternative side argumented, that the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi ALSO was originally a deck with 70 cards only (organised in a 5x14-structure - which is a possible solution for all cards made by the first painter of the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi, who left 13 trumps, 1 Fool and 54 of 56 small cards - only 2 cards are lost, one them in the 20th century). The relevant remaining special cards are 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 .. 12, 13 ... 20, whereby the irregulare looking jump from 10 to 12 could be interpreted as a result of a number-consideration (theoretically it was originally counted from 1,2,3 ... till 14, but the result was an unpleasant endresult "105", which was altered by moving the Fool from 11 to 0 and the card 14, Judgment, to 20, so getting the pleasant endresult "100"). Well, and there are much further more complicated arguments ....

Following the argumentation of the "real-data-fraction", then the time of the "origin of the standard Tarot" might move from earlier accepted "1420-1440" or "ca. 1450" to a time in the 60's or 70's of 15th century, which is in historical evaluation a dramatical change..

(autorbis)87.78.74.82 03:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Please clean up your references; those anonymous external links especially. Give them the correct title, author etc. Shinobu 14:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More about the words used.

There is some discussion in the article about the origins (disputed as they are) of the word "Tarot" itself. What about the usages "trump" and "arcana" for the different portions of the deck? Where do these surface, and based on what? -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 00:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Captions

Many of the captions state that The quality of colors may differ slightly from the US Games versions. Unless the colors depicted are used uniformly in the rest of the world, why have this rather US-centric statement? It seems that it would be better to simply state that the coloring varies by edition/publication/whatever the correct term is. --Starwed 16:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

From examining the actual image pages, my understanding is that:
  • The original images, now in the public domain, are available in black and white
  • US Games is a company which holds the copyright to a particular colored derivation
  • The cards pictured in the article are an independently colored version of the original.
So the whole thing makes more sense to me personally now, but I'm not sure how to clarify it within the page itself. :) --Starwed 13:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural references

This section is getting jammed up with trivia. It seems to be a trivia magnet! Can I suggest we remove it or alternatively split if off elsewhere. References to the tarot are so numerous that I don't see this providing much use. Any views before I become bold and delete it? Gillyweed 00:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC) Yes, I've noticed the same thing! We've had this problem before. I will do the deed for you, Smiloid 18:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tarot readers

This whole series of articles on Tarot readings seems to be full of cruft. Can someone please go through and fix them all? I know very little about the mysticism that gullible people pour into Tarot cards, but it needs to be cleaned up, cited using reliable sources, and a lot of junk needs to be removed. Titanium Dragon 23:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Just to clarify this article here concerns the cards themselves. The article tarot reading deals with the topic of cartomantic uses. You are probably correct that there is some cruft with the inclusion of some of these decks. This article needs to be organized into a taxonomy of card designs. Smiloid 01:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Suit of Swords

I have suggested that The Suit of Swords be merged into this article, because it lacks enough content to work as a stand-alone. --lifebaka (Talk - Contribs) 00:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

This would not be the only tarot stub. There are even articles on individual tarot cards most of which are stubsSmiloid (talk) 07:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

The capitalization of "Tarot" is all over the place in this article. While I often see it capitalized, I'm unsure of the reasons why it would or wouldn't be, so it might be correct to do so in some instances but not in others. As near as I can tell, however, it's entirely random in this article. If someone knows better than I do, it might be something to clean up. --Rob (talk) 01:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC) You are correct. It should NOT be capitalized. Feel free to de-cap them,LOLSmiloid (talk) 06:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Links

I am new here and not sure where to add a link that would be practical as I teach tarot classes and have for over twenty years. I have several methods and resources I'd like to post as an external link and have no idea where to do so and what is the proper way to do so. Any help would be terrific.JustMeTT200808 21:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)yogini2006

[edit] Accuracy?

Much of the information in this article, such as almost the entire "Origins" section, is not entirely accurate. The proposed origin with the Mameluk Egyptians has been forwarded by scholars, but so have many other theories, and none has so far been backed up with sufficient evidence to claim even likelihood for that scenario being true. So at the very least, this article needs to be carefully scrutinized, and adapted so that it is clear that many of the stated 'facts' are, in fact, uncertain and subject of ongoing research.

82.176.216.87 (talk) 17:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Named Cards

In my edit of today I have changed the expression 'trump cards' to 'named cards'. The reason for this is that a trump card is only relevant to trick taking games where cards of one suit rank above all non trump cards, and automatically prevail over them, losing only to a higher trump if one is played to the same trick. Calling these cards 'Major Arcana' would only cover the esoteric uses and not the game uses. As these cards all have names on them it seems to me that 'named cards' is a reasonable compromise. Also I have proposed merging Tarot Reading with this article. Please see Talk:Tarot reading. Morgan Leigh | Talk 10:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Not all tarot decks have "named cards" and esoteric writers have called "trumps" as well as "major arcana" Google "tarot" and "trumps" and you will see some examplesSmiloid (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I take your point. I wasn't really happy with 'named' but couldn't think of a way to put it that covers both uses. I know that Waite uses 'trumps major' but this appellation is not in common use these days. Most mere Anglophiles are innocent of the rules of the card games played with tarot cards and also sadly lacking in an awareness of the history of the cards, which situation has resulted in a lack of understanding as to why 'trumps' might be an appropriate moniker for the cards overwhelmingly known to us as 'The Major Arcana'. This lack of eloquence on my part is however not a valid reason to revert all the other changes I made yesterday. Consequently I have today incorporated your subsequent edits into the text of my last edit, having reverted 'named cards' to 'trumps'. I still think the introduction paragraph is clumsy and would suggest that we work on this. Can I please remind you that it is wikipedia policy to make one edit instead of a number of smaller edits in a row, which is your general practice. It would make things easier to manage if you could abide by this policy please.
I have also rearranged the images so that they are near text relevant to them and replaced a RW image with a Thoth one to provide greater diversity of card images.
I understand that you are interested in seeing that the games played with Tarot cards are given adequate coverage in this article. I have no problem with this at all. However I think you should bear in mind that this is an English wikipedia page and as such it reflects the prevalences of the English speaking world, where, as you rightly say, the games played with Tarot cards are practically unknown. Please bear this in mind when editing this article.
Morgan Leigh | Talk 01:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I would support merging both "Tarot reading" and "Tarot card games" with "Tarot" Having both merged would resolve bias issues.Smiloid (talk) 02:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Merge

It has been proposed to merge the Tarot Reading page and the Tarot card games page into the Tarot article. See the discussions at Talk:Tarot reading and Talk:Occult tarot. So far there is a majority in favour of the Tarot Reading merge but only one opinion on the Tarot games merge. See smiloids comment above. (Smiloid:I didn't want to move your vote to this section without asking you but it might be clearer if you do.)

Merge both - The English expression 'Tarot Reading' means to use Tarot cards for divinatory purposes. Ergo it does not include such things as using tarot cards as a meditative tool, for pathworking, or use as a mnemonic device. This means that Tarot reading is just one of many uses to which the Tarot cards are put. As such it should be the subject of a section in the Tarot article. If this section was to become large enough to warrant its own article then such a page should be created. This is not presently the case. Neither is it the case that the Tarot article is too long to support the addition of the material that is worth keeping which is currently on the Tarot Reading page.

I think it is important that the Tarot article include information about all the uses of Tarot cards. However, being as this is the English wikipedia, and being as in the Anglophone world the playing of games with Tarot cards is almost completely unknown, it would be appropriate for the esoteric uses of Tarot cards to be a greater part of the article than the games. However there does need to be more information in the Tarot article than presently exists regarding the games played with Tarot cards. Simply having a link to the pages specific to the games is not sufficient. A summary of the games would benefit the Tarot page. Some of the information on the Tarot card games page is a duplication of that on the Tarot page. Indeed it seems strange to mention Antoine Court de Gebelin on the Tarot card games page at all. For this reason I support the merge of Tarot Games into Tarot. I suggest that the Tarot card games page should follow the fine example of the French Tarot page, which explains the game and its rules and gameplay rather than the history of the cards themselves, which information seems to belong on the Tarot page. Morgan Leigh | Talk 02:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Smiloid - please refrain from editing the article until a consensus has been arrived at. One day is not long enough for a merge vote and your edit has resulted in a duplication of images. Morgan Leigh | Talk 03:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Merge both Tarot reading and Tarot card games into Tarot Smiloid (talk) 03:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Merge both. Sorry for jumping in with some of the editing, I hadn't seen this proposal yet... I'll give it a break for a while. Fuzzypeg★ 09:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
No votes have been recorded for a few days now so I reckon we should go ahead and do the merge of these three articles into one. I suggest that Smiloid handle the tarot games stuff and Fuzzypeg the Tarot reading stuff. I'll do the occult tarot stuff. If that suits everybody please remember to handle the deletion of the page once you have moved all the material we will be keeping. I'm glad we have been able to work together and arrive at a consensus :) I am confident we will have an improved article once we have done this. The question is, are we ready to keep working together and really try to lift the quality of the article to 'good', or maybe even 'featured'?.. I'm for it if you guys are. Morgan Leigh | Talk 11:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. I've done work on the re-directs so they point to the more relevant parts of the article. There are some sections here that need work. Two important genres of tarot deck need to be included, one is the so-called "Egyptian tarot" which is the first type of divinatory tarot and the other is the French suited tarot. These two types of deck are really the first "modern" tarots. Also the two distinguishing features of the Rider Waite deck should be mentioned; the swapping of ranks of the Strengh and Justice cards and the use of illustrated pips, an innovation inspired by the Sola Busca Tarocchi.Smiloid (talk) 05:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)