Talk:Tanbur (Persian)

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[edit] The Turkish Tanbur/Tambur: Urgent need for a disambiguation page!

I have read most of the discussions below about the "origins" (!) of the instrument. They are irrelevant. The Turkish tanbur is NOT the Persian one. I listen to and adore Ostad Elahi, but NEITHER the look nor the sound of his instrument have anything to the with those of the instrument played by Tanburi Cemil Bey and Necdet Yaşar, the two great masters of the Turkish tanbur. The Persian tanbur would be closer akin to the Turkish "Divan Sazı" which both looks like and demands a similar technique as that of the Persian tanbur; their sounds are more similar too. It follows that the question about the origins of the instrument are void of any sense. A remark on the etymology of the word can be given, but it must be distinguished from the discussion about the origins of the instruments themselves. The Turkish instrument is doubtlessly derived from the Byzantine Tambouras modified according to Turkish makams which use notes inexistent on the Byzantine scale (and vice versa of course...) and is most probably influenced in its further development by the Anatolian "bağlama", which has, in turn, its roots in Central Asia. Another remark is that, both the nationalism of my co-patriots who wrote on the page and that of the others is TIRING. This is supposed to be article about MUSIC. And the remark about Rumi... Please... He is a Persian speaking Iranian naturalized as a Seldjukide citizen. THAT'S ALL. He belongs to the world of every Turkish child as a part of his/her culture, but equally to the that of every Iranian. I'm probably not supposed say such things, but I think he would be ashamed to see that such a discussion is even possible. Yet I repeat, I ask the first person who knows how to create a disambiguation page to do it immediately. I have scanned pictures of the Turkish tanbur for upload and have much to write about the playing techniques. Thank you. Ekindedeoglu 21:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the Tanbur disambig was set up around the same time you left these comments. But I have fleshed it out a bit based on "Tanbur" in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. I think in the long run, that page will become (and be more useful as) a set index article. Please have a look at Tanbur and Talk:Tanbur, see what you think. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Tambur is the name used to refer to a long necked stringed instruments used in Turkish music. The tambur has a long, fretted neck, and a smaller, bowl-shaped body. It has seven strings; six of them are grouped in pairs, with a seventh lower-pitched string. It has a rich, raspy sound, and can be plucked or bowed. Tamburs are generally only played in traditional Ottoman classical music—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asheemak (talk • contribs) 03:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tembûr

Tembûr is also the name of a Kurdish string instrument played in south eastern Kurdistan (region of Kirmaşan/Iranian Kurdistan). It's a sacred and mostly religious instrument used by sufis to reach the state of ecstacy in a musical tradition that is considered one of the most ancient and deep-rooted musical traditions in the world. Recently, tembûr players like Ali Akbar Moradi have begun to make it more secular and release albums containing music played by this instrument—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asheemak (talk • contribs) 03:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The tembûr is thought to be the origin of some Persian instruments such as the setar—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asheemak (talk • contribs) 03:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article cleanup

I have reverted this article to an earlier version. I happened to come across this article, and it seemed to be talking about a variety of instruments with similar names. It turns out that a large amount of text had been pasted in from pandura. I think perhaps that some instruments that might be called a tambura had been included, as well. I have linked to these articles from a new "See also" section. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

I am admittedly not familiar with the Pandura, but Tanbur or Tanbour as used in Iran is very different from the instrument described in this article. I think this article should be expanded to clear up the ambiguity.

The basic Iranian tanbur, used mostly in sacred mystical gatherings as one post above noted, had two strings. In the 20th century, an Iranian musician by the name of Ostad Elahi added a third string to the Tanbour and perfected its repertoire. The instrument that is played in Turkish music is very different from the Iranian Tanbour (no Iranian tanbour I have ever heard of has 7 strings; there is an 8-string instrument which sounds markedly different and is called Chogur. Persian Instruments. I'm not qualified to opine on Turkish instruments, but this article is misleading for those who are looking for the Persian Tanbur that looks and sounds nothing like what has been described here. —the preceding comment is by 209.191.175.203 - 16:16, 7 April 2006: Please sign your posts!

[edit] Copyright violation

An anonymous editor added text that was apparently copied from here. This same text had also appeared in the Pandura article (also see Talk:Pandura. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incomplete

I've added the {{Incomplete}} tag to the article because it only addresses the Turkish tanbur. From what I gather there is a similar Persian instrument with the same name (see link in "Copyright violation" section) and there may be other uses. I realize this article is already tagged as a "stub," but that generally means the content needs to be expanded. I wish to point out that the scope of the article needs to be expanded, as well (I almost added {{globalize}} but it didn't seem quite right). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:31, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

And now I've just noticed that someone had already mentioned this issue in the "Clarification" section. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:32, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion to split Tanbur articles

I suggest that this article be split up into different articles that discuss tanburs from different musical traditions. I'm the person that originally created this article over a year ago. I originally created it with the Turkish tanbur in mind, however over time, a number of great additions were made discusing the Persian tanbur, as well as the instrument by that name from other traditions. Now, the article has been modified enough so that it's basically a page that focuses on the Persian tanbur, with mention that it appears in other traditions.

I think it's become to confusing to have one article represent this instrument in all it's traditions, so I suggest a disambiguation page that points to different pages that discuss tanburs from different countries. I welcome any discussion on this suggestion. jeff.lopez-stuit 18:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say go for it. There was (actually, still is) a similar issue with the Pandura article; see Talk:Pandura. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evolution?

The last para compares the "evolution" of this instrument to "evolutionary theory of punctuated equilibrium". Man-made things do not evolve, i.e. develop spontaneously; they are developed by their designers. Besides, any man-made thing follows this kind of development: a thing is made good enough, and when the utilization of that thing outgrows its design, it is developed further (cars, computers, crockery... anything you can think of). If it needs saying at all, it would be better simply to mention that the tanbur has throughout its history been developed in phases. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.184.72.38 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

This article makes a lot of major claims about the historic nature of the tambur, but with no solid references except to a couple of websites which are obviously "pro-tanbur" sites. At least one of the editors on this article also seems to have a history of posting unreferenced information in other articles as well, so as to avoid future problems, I would like to see some additional references from more reliable sources in this article, or perhaps for it to be edited down with fewer grandiose adjectives. --Elonka 19:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tanbur is a Turkic instrument

Tanbur is a Turkic instrument, it derives from the earlier "Kopuz", the Persian instrument your describing is not the Turkic Tanbur, its a totally different instrument with a different sound.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.50.23 (talk • contribs) 16:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Question: Why do all Turkish people want to own EVERYTHING from the past of other countries??? Is Mevlana Rumi Turkish? How about Tanbour? Does the language Persian come from Turkish? Is Kabob Turkish? I mean COME ON guys! (by the way I'm from Canada, But COME ON TURKISH)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.108.208.155 (talk • contribs) 04:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

He is talking bullshit anyway, this is a derivative of the Byzantine Tambouras, as even wikipedia's own article states. It is a Greek instrument. Even the name is a derivative, there is no such thing as a 'Turkic' race. It is pure fantasy.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.70.115 (talk • contribs) 15:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Rather than arguing about this, it would be most helpful if someone would cite a verifiable source one way or the other. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah! I agree. How about this?(this is the most useful info i could get on the web!) [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.108.208.155 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The website's hostname suggests this source is a blog. Blogs, message boards, forums and the like are generally not considered to be verifiable. In any case it doesn't appear to be the website's own, original content, but instead seems to be drawn from numerous sources. Those sources would be more useful. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related to dombra

Hi, User:68.174.13.231 keeps removing all references to dombra, tambura, pandura; see diff. The article only says that the tanbur is related to the dombra (seems pretty obvious and uncontroversial) and "See also" links to tambura and pandura also seem obvious and uncontroversial. The removal seems like unsophisticated POV. I already reverted once so I am refraining from reverting again; do people here agree it should be added back? —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-28 06:06Z

Hearing no response, I have reverted again. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-07 02:55Z

Sigh, 68.174.13.231 (talk · contribs) has reverted again. I am going to ask for an outside look since no one else seems to be watching this page. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-08 07:53Z

Persian Kurdish Tanbur This article and photograph pertains only to the original Persian Kurdish Tanbur. NOT the Kazakhs or any other ethnic group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.13.231 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for finally commenting here. Please explain why you keep removing all references to Tambura, Pandura, Dombra. "This article is about X" is not a reason to not have any links to Y. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-08 08:02Z

Dombra is not Persian or Kurdish. Maybe you should start a new section for it, but it does not belong part of this.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.13.231 (talk • contribs)

"See also" is already its own section. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-08 08:05Z

I came across this article while RC-patrolling. I would like to request both sides to stop reverting the article and complete the discussion on the talk page itself. The distinction between the two hasnt been made clear. A seperate section would probably be appropriate. Having said that, I'm no expert on the subject, simply wanted to inform all users involved that violation of the 3-revert rules would lead to being blocked. Thanks xC | ☎ 08:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Xcentaur, thanks for coming in. I would note that I wrote on the talk page and waited a week before reverting, as you can see from the time stamps. Also I am an admin so I am well aware of 3RR rules. If I weren't involved already I would have considered blocking 68.174.13.231 for repeatedly removing valid information without discussion. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-08 08:10Z

Again, 68.174.13.231, if you are claiming that Tanbur is not related to the other instruments, please say so. "This article is about instrument X" is not a valid reason to remove references other instruments, especially not when they are so closely related. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-08 08:12Z

It occurs to me that perhaps you don't understand the meaning of "See also" and think that that section refers to the image of the Tanbur that was above it. I have moved the image to a properly-sized inline thumbnail image at the top of the article, so perhaps that will remove the confusion. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-08 08:20Z

[edit] Persian Kurdish Tanbur

Quarl, you are in violation of Wikipedia's rules. You cannot change what I write in the discussion board. This is considered vandalism. Read the rules! You are welcome to write your own opinion, but not to manipulate mine. I wrote the original article based on reading dozens of books and 30 years of research. You can also go to the Tanbur Society website www.tanbursociety.com, which is a society for the preservation and propagation of the Tanbur and you will clearly see the information is correct.

This article and photograph pertains only to the original Persian Kurdish Tanbur. NOT the Kazakhs or any other ethnic group. Dombra is not Persian or Kurdish. Maybe you should start a new section for it, but it does not belong part of this.

Wikipedia is not a place for personal attacks, but a place for learning.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.174.13.231 (talk) 07:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

Please use the edit summaries correctly. Deniz^T_C 15:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you User:Johnyajohn ? Deniz^T_C 15:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tanbur is Kurdish/Persian

I agree with 68.174... Tanbur is 100% Kurdish/Persian, I should know, I have played it for 35 years. Hasan K. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.0.30.180 (talk • contribs)

Lol, do you claim that you and that "68.174..." are not the same person? Deniz^T_C 02:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] tags

I restored tags that were deleted prematurely months ago. Lets discuss them. Also, we have the Hittite picture, so I don't thnk it is Persian either, if that matters. Deniz^T_C 15:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] copyvio

I found out that this article was almost an exact copy of http://www.tanbursociety.com/tanbur.htm before the last few edits. It has probably been this way since September. Deniz^T_C 16:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

How do you know that article is not a copy/paste of this article? Their website looks kind of amateurish. --Mardavich 18:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I hadn't see that diff and no, I am not the anon. You don't have to tag the article, just revert it to the version before the anon, and we'll slowly rebuild it using new materials as well as the original edits that were added after the copyvio insertion. --Mardavich 03:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Please see /Temp Deniz^T_C 03:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks good, we can expand it later. --Mardavich 03:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I restored that version. Deniz^T_C 15:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

69.201.146.55, 68.174.13.231, 66.108.46.97, Johnyajohn, 12.0.30.180, 68.175.78.96, 68.175.70.126, and possibly Global.wiki, or whoever you are, please stop disruptive edits. Deniz^T_C 15:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

FWIW archive.org does not have any record of the webpage in question, nor any other tanbursociety.com pages: [2] [3]. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You can also add 63.164.145.85 to the list of suspects, though it would have involved blanking this page from a Los Angeles IP less than 8 hours after .55 made edits to Hajj Nematollah in New York. (Perhaps meatpuppetry is invovled?) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

[edit] May 2007

We own The Tanbur Society and the text written by K. Morgan. We give Wikipedia full permission to use the text and information. It is now in public domain. The Tanbur Society would like to preserve the history of this beautiful ancient instrument and anyone is welcome to use the information.

The Tanbur Society of New York, May 6, 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.201.146.55 (talk) 08:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

That is not enough, I could very well say that, no the website belongs to me. Now can you please make a statement whether you are not the same person with any of the IP's/user's listed above (69.201.146.55, 68.174.13.231, 66.108.46.97, Johnyajohn, 12.0.30.180, 68.175.78.96, 68.175.70.126, and possibly Global.wiki,)? Please don't avoid the last question if at least one of them is not you. Deniz^T_C 22:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

We are not any other IP or johnyajohn. This is all very childish. You are welcome to send an email to The Tanbur Society and confirm that this is our IP address.

Can you please send an email to OTRS confirming this from the organization's official email address? Until then, we cannot have it. Please also indicate sources, this version of the article lacks a lot of sources. Deniz^T_C 01:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It should be a simple matter for the owner of the tanbursociety.com website to change the current copyright notice to something less restrictive. But right now it is very specific about not reproducing the text. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Sir, if you understand the English language, we have stated not to be used without written consent. Since we The Tanbur Society have given written consent to Wikipedia both on this page and in many emails it is absolutely fine for the text to be used. Also, you can call us or send an email and we will gladly reply. We are only interested in educating the public about this beautiful ancient instrument, not get into some strange argument about Turks and Persians. Please keep your personal and ethnic feelings aside and try to help the public. David P. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.201.146.55 (talk • contribs) 08:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure OTRS is the right place to send an email. But according to WP:CP you should either:

Make a note permitting reuse under the GFDL at the site of the original publication; or
Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to permissions-en at wikimedia dot org or a postal message to the Wikimedia Foundation.

Have you done either of these? One thing you should keep in mind is that granting consent only to Wikipedia is insufficient, as Wikipedia contents may be freely distributed, which runs counter to the copyright notice on your webpage. Also note that the text would be subject to modification by other editors as they see fit. (As it says at the bottom of every edit page, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.") Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

We sent an email to the appropriate Wikipedia email address and a fax. We even spoke with a person at the main office and they said all copyright issues have been resolved. There never truly was any copyright issue since we gave permission to Wikipedia to use the text, but now we did the actions you asked for. David P. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.201.146.55 (talk • contribs) 07:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, someone from OTRS will presumably leave a message on this page before long. Meanwhile, I am compelled to point out, again, that this text is subject to modification by any other editor(s), after which it may bear no resemblance to your text. Furthermore, the Tanbur Website itself does not cite any sources and, as such, is both a primary and self-published source; please see Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable sources as to why this presents a concern. The only edit I have made today, or plan to make until OTRS comments, is to restore the {{dablink}} (though if it ever turns out there are more than two types of tanbur, it might be more sensible to point it to the tanbur disambig. page). Thanks again, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] June 2007

It is sad that Mr. "Gyrofrog" has become obsessed with us and has nothing better to do than attack everything we write. We did email and fax them and they emailed us back to okay everything. We are not the same as Johnjohn or anyone else, but if it makes you happy to think we are, good luck! With all due respect to Mr.gyrofrog, it is more than obvious your knowledge about the Persian/Kurdish Tanbur is next to 0. Anyone who knows anything about the Tanbur would laugh if they read the incorrect information you wrote. About self promotion, how can a non for profit website built to help educate others and keep a dying instrument alive be self promoting. We have only spent money to help keep a dying instrument alive, never took in a penny from anyone.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.201.146.55 (talk • contribs) 05:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a coincidence that you and Johnyajohn have a tendency to work on the same articles, which often involves linking to websites that all have the same owner (I wonder if Keya Gallery is also a non-profit?). I did not write the current version, but I see that it does cite a source concerning the history of the instrument (i.e. Akkadian era). Note that this is the same information presented in the New Grove Dictionary of Music, so I think you face a tough battle if you want to convince others this data is unreliable. You are absolutely right in one regard, I do know next to nothing about the tanbur. That's what brought me to the Wikipedia article in the first place: I wanted to find more information. I was unsatisfied with the article and finally decided I should make an attempt at improvement (see Tanbur/Temp). So I went to a college library, something that doesn't require any specialized knowledge to do, and looked up "tanbur" in the Grove dictionary. If your website contains some specialized knowledge that Grove does not then it would be very helpful if you provide your own sources, either here or on your website. Otherwise, in this reader's opinion, your website is a primary source. I'm also not sure why we need to mirror your website at Wikipedia. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Gyrofrog, there are only three people who really know how to play the Kurdish Tanbur correctly in the United States. It is a dying instrument and you are certainly doing everything in your power to destroy its history and culture. What a shame and truly a type of crime against humanity. Instead of trying to preserve history, you are deleting the correct information and writing incorrect information about something you not nothing of. I am not johnjohn, but even if I was, WHO CARES? I just looked at his page and he has not written anything that is obscene or crazy. TanburSociety.com does not have any links to other website, galleries or for profit sites. So what is your big obsession with me and why do you have to attack almost everything that I write? Do I have to start a new section for Wiki-Stalkers?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.201.146.55 (talk • contribs) 09:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Please avoid making personal attacks. If you wish to release your text under the GFDL, please note that at your website. Thanks. PouponOnToast 13:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

To 69.201.146.55: First of all, if it isn't clear from my previous comments, let me state right now that the copyright issue is not even the biggest problem with the Tanbur Society's version of the article. If OTRS were to finally respond (and it's now been over a month, by the way) and say "yes, it's absolutely and officially fine to use their text," I would still maintain that we should not do so. I've already given my reasons, and thus far you have chosen not to respond to any of these concerns. I don't want it to seem like I'm moving the goalposts, so if it isn't evident from my earlier comments, let me say now that the copyright issue is a smaller concern than the Tanbur Society content itself.

You've said yourself that you are closely involved with the subject, and I've mentioned my concerns that your website (as currently presented) is a primary source and, as such, I think it's inappropriate for Wikipedia (this is not intended as an attack on you or your website, I'm just saying that the content is inappropriate for Wikipedia). Don't you have a source or sources for the information on your website? Even Grove Dictionary has a bibliography at the end of its tanbur article. Does your organization have some kind of involvement with tanbur players? If so, then why not post some transcripts of interviews with them on your website? That could potentially be a valuable resource for us.

As for the stalking allegations, if you'll scroll further up this talk page you'll see I was not the first to suspect that sockpuppetry might be involved. Another editor had already done a lot of that legwork and I thought it was only fair to follow through on the allegations. As of this writing Johnyajohn is suspected of sockpuppetry but I stand by the results of my efforts. Believe me, I've got plenty of other things I'd rather be doing.

I'll be the first to agree that the article, as of this writing, is not what we want to present. But I have had little or no involvement with this version of Tanbur (Persian). I was using Tanbur/Temp to do a rewrite. Note that I started from scratch, using Grove as a resource, in hopes of producing a better version. You still haven't mentioned if you have any problem(s) with the information presented in Grove: if it isn't a reliable source, then you owe all of us an explanation as to how and why your website is a better source.

I share your concern about the tanbur being a dying instrument: if I wasn't interested, then I wouldn't be typing this response. Trust me, I am not someone you need to warn about dying music.

Let me say again that none of this is intended as an attack on you or your website. I am acting out of concern for the improvement of a Wikipedia article. I don't think it's appropriate to cite your website as a reference, much less to quote it verbatim, nor for you to include this content yourself due to the potential conflict of interest (and just so you don't think I'm being contrary, Wikipedia has guidelines and policies about these issues). Finally, I cannot seriously be expected to respond to an allegation of "crime against humanity". -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at the history of "gyrofrog" and 69.201 and I 100% agree that Gyrofrog is attacking this person and others for no reason. He does not know anything about the Persian Tanbur, but he went ahead and deleted everything from people who are trying to do good. What a shame! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.0.30.180 (talk • contribs). 22:43, 29 June 2007

Don't talk nonsense. Garion96 (talk) 23:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Tanbur redirects here

Currently Tanbur serves as a disambiguation page but Talk:Tanbur redirects here. I am going to remove the redirect, because the disambig. page should have its own talk page, given all of the confusion over the term (even the Grove Dictionary says the "terminology is a complicated situation"). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement, nomenclature etc.

First of all, I suggest we rewrite the article or at least incorporate some earlier version, rather than continue to use the tanbursociety.com version. Copyright issues aside (OTRS still hasn't left a response), tanbursociety.com is both a primary and self-published source. Furthermore, I believe its inclusion in Wikipedia is due, at least in part, to an attempt at self-promotion (see User talk:Johnyajohn#June 2007 as to why I've arrived at this conclusion). I'm not comfortable citing the website as a reference, much less incorporating its text wholesale.

Second, I am not sure whether "Tanbur (Persian)" is an applicable title for this article. Part of the text describes the use of this instrument among the Ahl-e Haqq sect. Indeed, the New Grove Dictionary of Music specifies an instrument used in Ahl-e Haqq and says this instrument is rendered as tembûr in Kurdish. Based on this I propose we rename this article (or move the part about the tembûr) to "Tanbur (Kurdish)" or "Tanbur (Ahl-e Haqq)" or "Tembûr".

"Persian Tanbur" seems rather vague: Al-Farabi, according to Grove, described a Baghdad tunbūr, distributed south and west of Baghdad, and a Khorasan tanbur (or tunbūr) found in Persia. Grove says this distinction may be the source of modern differentiation between Arabic instruments (from the Baghdad tunbūr) and those found in northern Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey (Khorasan tanbur). Saz, although a Persian term, is played in the Caucasus, Turkey, northern Syria, western Iraq and southeastern Europe (but, apparently, not Persia/Iran). Dutar and setar are used to distinguish Iranian and Central Asian derivatives of the Khorasan tanbur. Otherwise, Grove makes no other mention of a specific "Persian Tanbur". On the other hand, one musician's biography uses the term "Persian tanbur". -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday 69.201.146.55 (talk · contribs) removed the tags {{Otheruses4}}, {{Cleanup-rewrite}}, and {{Rewriting}} from the article without addressing these issues. Without an actual response from 69.201.146.55, it's hard to call this a "dispute", but I have requested a third opinion on the matter. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The text in question is an obvious copyvio. If permission was granted, have the maintainer of the site contact permissions-en@wikimedia.org and release it, or change the copyright notice on the site that has the origional text. PouponOnToast 14:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

To be further clear, Wikimedia will not accept texts that are not licenced under the GFDL. Releasing text just to wikimedia is not sufficient for our purposes. You will need to release the text to everyone under the GFDL. PouponOnToast 14:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, PouponOnToast. Note that the uploader claims to have sent such an email as of May 23, but I am having doubts about this. I am sure OTRS has a formidable backlog, but even taking that into account, I don't think they would take an entire month to respond on this page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

There have been no responses specifically addressing the issues that I've raised (aside from the copyright issue, which I believe is moot). I am planning to replace Tanbur (Persian) with the contents of Tanbur/Temp and then move the article to Tembûr (which currently redirects to saz). In summary:

Tanbursociety.com, as currently written, is a primary source and thus unsuitable as the sole basis of a Wikipedia article.
Tanbur/Temp is about the Ahl-e Haqq tembûr, and cites The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians as its source.
Grove does not specify a Persian tanbur other than the Ahl-e Haqq tembûr. Rather, dutar and setar seem to be the correct terms for tanbur instruments in the region. Based on this I don't think I'd be omitting some other Persian tanbur by moving this article to "Tembûr".

Thanks for reading. Your constructive criticism is welcome. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, moving this article to Tembûr would mean that Tanbur (Persian) becomes a redirect to that article. I've thought of some other possible options:

move Tanbur/Temp to Tembûr, then leave Tanbur (Persian) solely as a disambig page linking to Tembûr, Dutar and Setar.
move Tanbur/Temp to Tembûr, then replace Tanbur (Persian) with text about the Khorosan tunbur, although this only amounts to a couple of sentences in Grove.
Do both 1 and 2: make it a disambig page, and just put the bit about the Khorosan tunbur at the top.
(Gave it more thought, I think this one is best) Redirect Tanbur (Persian) to Tanbur which will do the same thing as #3.

-- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Done I have gone ahead and made the changes. Specifically, I went with option #4 from my June 30 comments. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)