User talk:Tamokk
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[edit] Your question
That's a question that requires a long answer. When I'll have returned home I'll try to explain it. Cheers. Alæxis¿question? 15:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
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- I don't want to get too far into history so I'll begin with the 1991 events. There were two consecutive referenda that both attracted almost 100% support (among those who voted, that is). However the first one (on the renewal of USSR) was boycotted by ethnic Georgians and the second one (on the independence of Georgia) was boycotted by non-Georgians. Due to these events and considering that there were more non-Georgians than Georgians in Abkhazia I believe that most of Abkhazians would rather live in USSR/Russia than in Georgia (they didn't think about independence then, probably).
- Then the 1992-1993 war followed; one may argue about the final stage of the war but in the beginning it was like tanks vs. hunting rifles and it's natural for a human being to support the weaker side (all the rest being equal).
- Getting independence is one thing, then you have to manage it. This is precisely what Chechens could not do during their de facto independence. The republic had become the centre of hostage-taking and finally the explosions and the invasion of Dagestan followed. Abkhazia is completely different in this sense - we don't know of any explosions in Tbilisi's metro or school seizures in Zugdidi and there were no attempts to conquer neighbouring Mingrelia.
- I've been there first several years ago and also this summer. When I say that I mean not only the capital and thriving resorts of Gagra and Pitsunda but also places that look simply terrible (like Akarmara micro-rayon of Tkuarchal). However the general impression I've got was that the tendency is positive and the republic is developing.
- Of course I'm sorry that about 200,000 people that left the country still live somewhere else. It's a sad thing whether it happens with Germans on Volga, Tatars in Crimea, Armenians/Azeris in Azerbaijan/Armenia, Ossetians in Georgia, Russians in Chechnya, Serbs in Krajina and Kosovo or Georgians in Abkhazia. Alæxis¿question? 19:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'll give you a shorter answer if I may. Alaexis and co don't support Abkhazia's independence per se, but rather the fragmentation of Georgia and the typical Russian irredentist claims to the Caucasian territories.--KoberTalk 15:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Huh, what do you mean by Caucasus? I absolutely oppose possible incorporation of Armenia/Azerbaijan/Georgia into Russia. There is also no difference to me whether Abkhazia remains independent or becomes part of Russia. I think that they should sort it out themselves. Alæxis¿question? 19:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Without even asking 250,000 people expelled from their homes in Abkhazia, right? This borders on fascism, my friend. --KoberTalk 19:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't understand where have you found fascism in my post. Georgians never made a majority in Abkhazia when the censuses were carried out and there were no referenda among all the people who lived in Abkhazia before the war so we can't possibly know what do they think now. The last referendum happened in 1991 and the majority expressed no desire to live in Georgia. Alæxis¿question? 19:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Without even asking 250,000 people expelled from their homes in Abkhazia, right? This borders on fascism, my friend. --KoberTalk 19:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Even after these referenda, Tbilisi and Sukhumi agreed on a powersharing deal which resulted in constitutional changes and granted Abkhaz (17% of Abkhazia's population) an over-representation in the supreme council and government. By signing this agreement, Sukhumi agreed to remain within Georgia as an aut. rep., but Ardinzba's clan violated the promise and started to persecute Georgians that brought the region on the verge of war.--KoberTalk 19:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Eh, so what? I also remember that there were some tensions between the Abkhaz-majority parliament and Tbilisi so it was not so simple as you've written. Alæxis¿question? 19:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Even after these referenda, Tbilisi and Sukhumi agreed on a powersharing deal which resulted in constitutional changes and granted Abkhaz (17% of Abkhazia's population) an over-representation in the supreme council and government. By signing this agreement, Sukhumi agreed to remain within Georgia as an aut. rep., but Ardinzba's clan violated the promise and started to persecute Georgians that brought the region on the verge of war.--KoberTalk 19:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Georgia had all rights to sent troops into one of its regions when the Georgian population was in danger. It's true, however, that a Georgian force was commanded by a criminalized moron with close ties with KGB who immediately resorted to looting. The subsequent scenario had long been prepared in the Kremlin officials who are not a "weaker side", I guess. --KoberTalk 19:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Believe in this if you wish. I'm also interested whether USSR had all rights to do what they did in Tbilisi in 1989 and whether Russia has the right to attack any territory where Russians are in danger. Alæxis¿question? 19:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Georgia had all rights to sent troops into one of its regions when the Georgian population was in danger. It's true, however, that a Georgian force was commanded by a criminalized moron with close ties with KGB who immediately resorted to looting. The subsequent scenario had long been prepared in the Kremlin officials who are not a "weaker side", I guess. --KoberTalk 19:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Absolutely irrelevant comparison. Georgian troops in Abkhazia were confronted by a more or less organized military force, while Russian soldiers in Tbilisi were faced by teenage girls. Georgia had its reason to deploy troops in Abkhazia, while Russia's only purpose in April 1989 was to kill and slaughter Georgians and not to defend Russians living in Georgia.
- Yeah, that's what I call double standards. Alæxis¿question? 20:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Absolutely irrelevant comparison. Georgian troops in Abkhazia were confronted by a more or less organized military force, while Russian soldiers in Tbilisi were faced by teenage girls. Georgia had its reason to deploy troops in Abkhazia, while Russia's only purpose in April 1989 was to kill and slaughter Georgians and not to defend Russians living in Georgia.
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- Also, Russia did attack Chechnya when Russian citizens were put in danger and placed the Chechen people on the verge of extinction in a relentless revenge campaign.
- That'd be really funny if it wasn't so sad. What extinction do you talk about if there are more Chechens now in Chechnya and elsewhere than before the war and the non-Chechens virtually disappeared from the republic.
- Also, Russia did attack Chechnya when Russian citizens were put in danger and placed the Chechen people on the verge of extinction in a relentless revenge campaign.
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- Anyway, what about attacking Latvia, Estonia or Turkmenistan then? Alæxis¿question? 20:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
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- As for your heart-moving sympathies to "a weaker side" I don't remember that any Russian have ever expressed any sympathy, so "natural for a human being", towards the victims of the 1989 April 9 tragedy.--KoberTalk 20:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know who did you talk about it with. I think that most of the people here (including myself) (those who know about it, that is) feel very sorry about those events... Alæxis¿question? 20:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- As for your heart-moving sympathies to "a weaker side" I don't remember that any Russian have ever expressed any sympathy, so "natural for a human being", towards the victims of the 1989 April 9 tragedy.--KoberTalk 20:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
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I realise perfectly well that not everyone agrees with me about this... )) Alæxis¿question? 23:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
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- I regularly visit Russian web-forums whose members are supposed to be more exposed to different opinions and information widely available on the internet. I mostly meet there anti-Georgian ethnic slurs, offending neologisms, hate, cynicism, Westernophobia and associate (mildly to say) criticism of Georgia's independent and pro-western policy. Being a true fan of Russian culture (from medieval Pskov and Novgorod art schools to modern-day hard rock), I've recently read a post by one of Russian user with vast knowledge of Georgian literature and theatre ridiculing Shota Rustaveli, Sandro Akhmeteli, and offering to put an end once and for all to Georgia as a source of Russia's troubles. Anti-Georgian sentiments in Russia are rampant and you know this perfectly well.--KoberTalk 20:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Mapatie Dimitri, magram es provokaciaa da araseriozulobaa. Is this nonsense supposed to be a retaliation to Siberian nationalism? I redirected the page to Mingrelian Affair since you principally referred to the usage of this term under Stalin. --KoberTalk 16:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding your new question the most important thing is that in any case reintegration must be supported by the people that are being reintegrated. For this reason the rejoining of Russia and Suomi remains a rather abstract idea in a foreseeable future ))) Baltic states seem to live well enough (yes, ethnic Russians are more or less oppressed in 2 of 3 Baltic states but they should fight for their rights inside these independent states, if they are interested in my opinion) by themselves so they aren't interested in returning also, I presume. The same goes for Western Ukraine...
There are territories, however, that, I think, wouldn't be opposed to some kind of co-existing with Russia. Some of them have the culture same or very close to ours and I'd be very happy if they (Eastern and Southern Ukraine, Belarus, Transnistria, Northern Kazakhstan (?)) end up in a same union, (con)federation or whatever with us. On the other hand the countries of Central Asia are rather different from Russia - in the structure of society, wealth, culture, etc. I've enjoyed my visit to Uzbekistan very much but I think we should live as separate countries in future. Alæxis¿question? 23:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Thanks ))
Finally I've got my first award - in less than a year since I joined Wikipedia ))) Do you really want to leave this project? These are not good news... Could you explain why (here or by e-mail)? Alæxis¿question? 14:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
