Talk:Talysh people

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Contents 1 Talysh Numbers 2 Religion 2.1 Third opinion 3 Protected

[edit] Talysh Numbers

I noted some people try to change the estimate of the Talysh numbers. The fact is that the statistics of the republic of Azarbaijan is not reliable and until correct numbers are given, one can not be sure about the number of Talysh speakers. If someone wants to provide such a government statistic, it must be mentioned that the estimate is biased. --Ali doostzadeh 22:25, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

How do you know that it is biased? Such statements need to be well sourced, otherwise they cannot be included to the article. The figures from ethnologue and others are not that reliable, because it’s not known how they obtained them. Grandmaster 12:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

It is a well known fact that the republic of Azerbaijan plays ethnic politics and has ethnic problems. One of them being Karabagh problem. Plus at one time they use to say there did not exist any Talysh in the republic and they have been assimilated into Azaris. Furthermore there is a strong assimilation policy against Talysh. I think all statistics should be mentioned. The two sources I brought are unbiased relative to a pan-turkist government source. --Ali doostzadeh 18:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Since when Azerbaijani government is pan-Turkist? I hope you know the meaning of the word pan-Turkist, because it is not appropriate in this context. And what Karabakh has to do with it? At least Azerbaijani government does not make a secret of the number of various ethnicities in the country, while the number of Azerbaijani people in Iran is a top secret and is not published by Iranian government. It is a fact that Iranian people are quick to assimilate with Azerbaijanis, while for example Dagestani people are not. The figures of Ethnologue are not realistic, for example, according to them the speakers of Persian and Azerbaijani languages in Iran are estimated as 36% and 37%. I don’t know whether that true or not, since Iranian government prefers not to disclose the figures, but even if we assume that the whole population of the Talysh region are Talysh speakers, which is not true, you still don’t have 800 000 Talyshi speakers. So I suggest to include all the available figures, but without any unsourced comments, and let the reader judge. Grandmaster 19:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually the Iranian government has published two sources. One in 1335 (now is 1385) and one in 1370 (15 years ago). Amongst others which i am not aware of. In the 1335 every village was counted and its language was given. My point is that the various estimates should be mentioned and the judgment about its accuracy should be up to the reader. 80,000 is actually ridicolous from my point of view considering that there at least 1000+ Talysh villages (assuming 80 person each lives in one of them) and there is a lot of Talysh in Massali, Jalil-Abad, Lenkoran, Lerik, and Astara. Also the Azarbaijan government is pan-turkist in my opinion and has close ties with Turkey (which is also pan-turkist) and one of its founders was a Pan-turkist Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh who was also a pan-turkist. As well as pan-turkist trends in the government, for example that of AbulFazl Elcibey and the Musavat party. Also Talysh nationalistic figure is 1.5 million. The thesis I brought was not biased. Also I doubt Talysh are happy to lose 2000-3000 years of history and become "Turks" whose culture was made by the USSR. But that is another story which there is no need to delve into. I think the multiple sources should be mentioned. For example I found one in this site: http://www.joshuaproject.net/countries.php. I find the Azerbaijani government as well as Talysh nationalist sources are biased. They are both political organiztions. Ethnologue could also be semi-political since it is a Christian missionary site and I did not say it has no deficiencies. They even do not know that Nuristani is a third branch of Indo-Iranian. But it should be quoted as so should be: http://www.joshuaproject.net/countries.php If you have a source that says there is one talysh in the republic, just quote it also. --Ali doostzadeh 21:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Rasulzade and Elchibey may have been adherents of pan-Turkist ideology, but the current government is not. And not all the villages in Talysh region speak Talyshi. But anyway, we can mention figures from any authoritative sources whatever they are, but this of course applies not only to this article. Grandmaster 07:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Most articles quote various sources from ethnologue to CIA factbook to Britannica and etc. As per Pan-turkism in the Azarbaijani republic, I believe it is ingrained in the educational system: http://www.muslimsonline.com/babri/azerbaijan1.htm Anyways thats another discussion. --Ali doostzadeh 07:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

The district of Lerik includes the town of Lerik and 159 villages, with a total population of 63,300. Of these population centers, 145 are 99% Talysh, ethnically and linguistically. ....The residents of all three villages are Sunni Muslims. Mosques have been built in each of the villages and these are supported locally.

The site of UNPO.org , in which the Talysh nationalisats are reprseneted writes:" Culture and religion The Talysh are Shi’a Muslims, are well educated and have their own language. ....Statistics: Population: 800.000 Language: Talysh Religion: Shi’a Muslim".

As you see only in the mountaineous district of Lerik (other districts are not mountaineous), three villages are Sunni. The overwhelming majority of talysh are therefore Shiites.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Please have a closer look at your source. You quote from a section with a more specific descriptions of the villages visited during the course of our research (p. 10). It certainly does not say that these three Sunni villages are the only ones. And it certainly does not say that - as you claim - 'other districts are not mountaineous'. Quite on the contrary: 80% of the district [Astara] is mountainous (p. 11), there are mountain villages in Lənkəran (p. 10) and so forth. Yet another source even says that the Talish are mostly Sunni. We just don't know. --Ankimai (talk) 06:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

who is we? people with scarse knowledge had not heard about Talysh before, but ethnologists and area experts know it quite well. UNPO.org which represents Talysh nationalist movement says that they are shiites. Moreover your souyrce does not say that All mountaineous villages are sunni. As you could see in that mountaineous district only a tiny number were sunni, apply the same formula to other districts that you think they are mountaineous, and you wont get a large number either. Good luck--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

'Moreover your source does not say that All mountaineous villages are sunni.' - You are wrong. This is exactly what it says. [T]he population of the mountain areas is Sunni Muslim. (p. 5) I beg you once more to read the study more thoroughly. There is no way to conclude from pp. 10-11 that 'in that mountaineous district only a tiny number were sunni'.

- UNPO says the Talysh are Shiites, the Hoover Digest, reprinting a report from the Contemporary Caucasus Newsletter, says they are mostly Sunni, and SIL says some are Shiites, some are Sunni. No one gives percentages, therefore we don't have any. --Ankimai (talk) 12:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Hoover is close to n.eocon circle and is not reliable totally. There might be more uninformed sources though. Your SIL source is a good one and I did not remove it. You should not remove my siourced edits. I have pout your source also there. Is it not good enough? It would be ridiculous to make me cite some dozen sources that Talysh are predominantly Shiites.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

As I have said already: the Hoover Digest article is a reprint from the Contempory Caucasus Newsletter, which is published by the University of California, Berkeley. You could have checked that yourself. Once more I ask you to be more diligent. For the second time you now have reverted to a version that says that only 18% of the Talysh speak Talysh.

Clifton et al. would be a source for the assertion that the Talysh are Shia and Sunni; they can not be used as a source for asserting that the Sunni Talysh are only a 'very small minority'. This would amount to synthesis and misrepresenting a reliable source. --Ankimai (talk) 09:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think Clifton document is very valuable for its pupose (socilinguistic), but it has many internal contaradictions with regard to the localisation of Sunni-Shia populace. Anyway I agree with you about the percentages of Talysh who speak Talysh and who speak Azeri. I do not have the numbers and I guess noone has the exact numbers. What is logical is that they all speak Azerbaijani too (in rep. of Azerbaijan) and Persian in Iran. In addition in Iran many Talysh speak Azerbaijani and Gilaki. Maybe we should do this in the lack of more reliable numbers.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

Since the disagreement is between Shia and Sunni, how about listing their religion as Islam, and have a footnote specifying that sources disagree as to the specific makeup of Shia vs. Sunni. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 13:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I hope Babakexorramdin (talk) can come to terms with that. I am not happy to keep the Korea Computer Mission as a source, but I leave it up to him.--Ankimai (talk) 18:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I have done some research, and there is academic consensus that Talysh people are mainly Shia[1][2][3][4][5], so saying "Shia and Sunni" without specifying that most are Shia, is unencyclopedic and giving undo weight to one source . --CreazySuit (talk) 08:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Now that is what I call sources. --Ankimai (talk) 09:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok thank you. Now you see that Talysh are predominantly Shias. Most sources and in general all informed experts on the region confirm this.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I was wrong. I have looked over those sources now. They certainly do not show that "there is academic consensus that Talysh people are mainly Shia", and I’d really like to know what makes CreazySuit believe that they do. None of them can be called academic.

Source 2 makes no mention of the Talysh people at all, but only one of the Talysh Ridge (page 767). Source 4, the Leadership Council for Human Rights, is an NGO, drawing their information mainly (look at the footnotes) from the UNPO, another NGO which is already contained in this article’s references and which in turn is advancing the views of the Talysh National Movement. Source 5, a draft report for the World Bank, only quotes an article published by jamestown.org: a journalistic, not an academic source. Source 3 is a consulting company. Source 1 a popular science book, rather coffee table than academic (and if you want to count that in, then you have to count in a popular science book stating the opposite, too: "Most Talysh are Sunni Muslim but there is a Shi'a minority" - Edward Evans-Pritchard (ed) (1972), Peoples of the Earth, v.15: Western and Central Asia, page 142)

So CreazySuit is wrong. The sources do disagree. Of course there are academic sources saying that the Talysh are Shiites (Svante Cornell of Cornell Caspian Consulting is doing scientific work as well). But then again there are others like Bernhard Geiger (1959). Peoples and Languages of the Caucasus: A Synopsis ("The Talysh in the USSR are all bilingual and speak also Azeri, which is used as the literary language. TRADITIONAL ECONOMY: Agriculture; horticulture; stock-raising; home industry. RELIGION: Islam (Sunni; Shii minority)" - page 48) or Michael Rywkin, Ronald Wixman (1984). The Peoples of the USSR: An Ethnographic Handbook ("The Talysh are, primarily, Sunni Moslem in religion (with a sizeable Shiite minority)" - page 184).

Shall we take this to WP:RFC now? --Ankimai (talk) 15:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

NGO's are good sources, because they have contact with the grassroots. Also Cornell is an expert on azerbaijan, while you cannot say the same about those generalists you mentioned. Also you yourself said that Talysh national movement is shhite. Doesnt it mean that Talysh are predominantly Shia? A National movement which claims to be of all talysh people needs to count on a borad basis (majority of population). Mistakes are made in many books about many issues. In this case it is very obvious that most sources say that the majority of talysh are Shia--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

- Little do we know. According to Cornell "the idea of independence" (promoted by the Talysh National Movement) "did not gain popularity even among the majority of Talysh people" - so perhaps the Talysh National Movement did and does not know their people that well after all.

No one seems to do. According to Cornell the Talysh people (in Azerbaijan) are "numbering some 300,000", according to the Talysh National Movement (via UNPO) they are numbering either "half a million" or 1.5 million.

The sources disagree, as they do on the question of whether the Talysh are primarily Sunni or Shia. Geiger (1959), Evans-Pritchard (1972), Rykwin/Wixman (1984) and Dunlop (1999) say that they are predominantly Sunni. Geiger, Evans-Pritchard, Rykwin/Wixman and Dunlop are - as far as I understand the rules - reliable sources. Cornell (2002) and other reliable sources say they are predominantly Shia. It is therefore correct to say that sources disagree (and incorrect to deny it). --Ankimai (talk) 22:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

I have protected article for a week so to help you find a consensus rather than edit war. Please drop me a note if you want me to unprotect it early Alex Bakharev (talk) 09:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)