Talk:Tallit

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164.83.229.20, why did you take out the qualification about some Ashkenazi groups wearing talitot from 13?MOE37x3 18:22, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

From what I know, the toga was a distinctively roman piece of clothing, so I changed the paragraph that said it was of Greek origin. If I'm wrong, please correct me. --222.13.236.80 12:40, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Hebrew 2 Historical Section 3 Some thoughts 4 Reform Judaism 5 Masculine or Feminine Word? 6 the diferance between wool and cotton 7 paragraph about women and circumcision

[edit] Hebrew

The two Hebrew words in parentheses, given with different transliterations, are in fact the same word, vowel points and all.Benami 08:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

fixz0r3d! Tomer^talk 05:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical Section

The material given here is interesting, but no sources are cited. The author who has contributed here writes a bit too informally and in too personal a style for an encyclopedia, with sentences like, "There is much confusion among the masses." Would someone care to rewrite? Could the author provide some sources, beyond biblical references. --Metzenberg 11:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some thoughts

I replaced the former photo of a rabbi with a tallit. I thought it was confusing, since it was a Sukkot photo with the four species as well, but explaining sukkot and what he has in his hands is really beyond the scope here. In it's place, I added the photo of men wearing tallitot at the wall.

I must say, all the discussion of pronunciation is a bit too technical. Is it really part of the scope of this article? In practice, I find that the Ashkenazi Hebrew (or Yiddish) still gets used a lot, sometimes in almost an ironic or funny way. People say "tallises" in the worst Yinglish even though they know better, the way they say "yontiff" or "shabbus". Would anybody have a problem with making this more informal?

[edit] Reform Judaism

Section doesn't seem to have anything to do with the status of the tallit (by either gender) in Reform Judaism. Section seems to be solely about the Women of the Wall (presented in a non-NPOV way) What does this specific group have to do with the general subject Tallit, or Tallit within Reform Judaism. If the section is relevant it's not current -- the Israeli Supreme Court issued a ruling.

[edit] Masculine or Feminine Word?

Tallitot appears feminine, and Tallaisim appears masculine. What is the noun's gender?

--Jndrline 18:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The word talléth was feminine with -oth in plural in Mediaeval Sephardi Hebrew and masculine with -im in plural in Mediaeval Ashkenazi Hebrew. In modern Israeli Hebrew, the word is generally considered feminine, but in the two expressions tallit gadol and tallit katan, the masculine endings of Mediaeval Ashkenaz are kept. In modern Sephardi Hebrew, usage varies between the traditional tallét gedolá and tallét ketanná and the standard Israeli tallít gadól and tallít katán. -- Olve 21:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Such a complete and well-rounded answer. I suspected that they retained their gender according to whichever pronunciation was being used, but I had never heard of such a thing, so I assumed it might have had something to do with a Yiddish-ism.

My question actually came up with the examples you gave of a tallis katan - someone said tallitot katanot, and it completely threw me. I had never heard any adjectives applied to the object, and so I had never thought to ask the question until this person put it in plural. I figured the answer might prove one of the ethnic pronounciations more "correct" over the other; I'm glad it doesn't. Good to know. Thanks again.

--Jndrline

[edit] the diferance between wool and cotton

is there a halachik diferance between wool and cotton? if someone can put it up (with all opinions) it would be great

1st, remember to sign all comments with 4~. 2nd, the difference is that, by halachoh, only wool and linen garments need to have Tzitzis. See The Alter Rebbe's siddur. Thats why, to be mehader the mitzvoh, you should wear wool or linen tzitzis and tallis. Shaul avrom 19:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Any other sources for this? (I don’t have that siddur and cannot access it from this part of Norway.) It is clearly not the general understanding of the miṣvá... -- Olve 15:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it is not so cut and dry. According to Sephardic custom as recorded by the Beis Yosef in SHulchan Aruch only wool and linen require titzis d'raisa, and others require them drabbanan. The rhema in his comments to this mentions that all garments require tzitizis draita. That's the normal Ashkenazi view, with acharonim coming down both ways. The Baal HaTanya, author of Shulchan Aruch HaRav and the Siddur mentioned above, rules leniently as mentioned. So does the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. General practice among most ashkenazim is to rule stringently. (The debate is whether it is draisa or d'rabbanan not whether there is a requirement.) Mishnah Berurah rules stringently. (Meaning he rules it a draisa, which is stringent because if you are in a market place wrapped in only a tallis that requires tzitzis draisa, and you see the tzitzis are torn, you have to immediately throw it off and run home naked. If it were a drabanan you could keap it on till you got home.)To put something up with ALL opinions would overpower the article. We are 600 years into the age of the Acharonim. Basejumper 19:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Holy cow! Isn't it good women don't wear a tallis. Otherwise they might have to undress in public and run naked through the marketplace yelling gevalddddd.--Gilabrand 19:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, a draisa commandment is pretty heavy in Judaism. WIth your example however, women also have a draisa commandment to cover themselves up in public, whereas for men most of it is drabbanan, so even if they had a commandment to wear tzitzis on a four cornered garment, it would work out that they should keap it on because running naked for them is violating several commandments "DOn't place a stumbling block," "You shall be holy," and "Let no unchaste thing be seen among you," not to mention others. I mentioned the running naked because that situation is discussed in Brachos; but truthfully, you'd also have the option of ripping the corner of your garment so it would be rounded, though a rounded rip would be difficult without a scissor or knife's help. Basejumper 17:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] paragraph about women and circumcision

The following paragraph was added by an anonymous editor:

The core of the issue is what the tallit and tzitzit symbolize. Tzitzit were commanded
to be tied to the corners of the four-cornered garment worn by men. The four-cornered
garment is the tallit. The tzitzit were to be a reminder of The Almighty's covenant with
His people (remember, the covenant is with the circumcised, and the circumcised extend it
to their wives and children). With the covenant comes protection. During the Birkat
HaKohanim (Blessing from the Priests of The Temple, or in modern times a rabbi), it is
customary for the husband/father to extend his tallit, and thus the covenant and protection
to his wife and children, symbolizing his accountability for how he teaches his family.
This accountability is because of the events in Bereishit (Genesis) chapter three. One
mitzvah (commandment) is for men and women to abstain from wearing what pertains to the
opposite gender. There is no scriptural reference of a woman wearing a four-cornered
garment, or a woman undergoing B'rit Milah.

I don't understand this paragraph: how can women undergo b'rit milah in the traditionally accepted sense of that term, for instance? Any clarification would be welcome. For now, though, I have removed this paragraph from the article so that we can work on it here, if we so desire. I believe this is the best way of keeping the article encyclopedic and relatively controversy-free. --Makaristos 22:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)