Talk:Takfiri

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Contents 1 Some more information 2 Takfir wal Hijra 3 Merge with Takfir wal Hijra 4 Takfiri Philosophy 5 Major rewrite 6 Takfiri Salafists 7 Please rewrite

[edit] Some more information

From de Volkskrant, "Vrouwen rond Hofstadgroep worstelen met verhoor" [Women surrounding Hofstad group wrestle with interrogation], by Volkskrant reporters Janny Groen and Annieke Kranenberg, published 3 Sept 2005:

"Takfiri verklaren andersdenkenden tot ongelovigen die bestreden, of zelfs gedood moeten worden. Zij mogen onder geen beding meewerken aan welk westers systeem dan ook. Westerse democratie en rechtsinstellingen zijn door mensen bedacht; takfiri zijn alleen verantwoording schuldig aan Allah.

Mohammed B. heeft zich als een voorbeeldige takfiri gedragen. Hij werkte niet mee aan verhoren, boycotte het psychiatrisch onderzoek en wilde zich niet door een advocaat laten vertegenwoordigen."

My rough translation:

"Takfiri consider people of a different opinion as unbelievers who have to be combatted or even killed. They must under no condition cooperate with any Western system whatsoever. Western democracy and institutions of justice are invented by humans; takfiri only answer to Allah.

Mohammed B. behaved as an examplar takfiri. He did not cooperate with interrogations, he boycotted the psychiatric investigation and he did not want to be represented by a lawyer."

Mohammed B. is the murderer of Theo van Gogh (film director), and the article is about the attitude of women who had been in contact with Mohammed B., particularly his former girl friend, during the police investigation. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this group identical with Takfir wal Hijra, or are they different? It's currently difficult to tell. —Charles P. (Mirv) 06:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Takfir wal Hijra

Seems fairly clear to me that someone intended this article to address the Takfir wal Hijra and didn't know much about that movement, so filled up the article with imprecations. This article should be turned into a redirect to Takfir wal Hijra. I don't think there's any real info here that needs to be saved. Zora 18:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Takfir wal Hijra

I'm going to merge any useful material with Takfir wal Hijra and redirect this article within a couple of days, unless I hear objections from other editors. Zora 01:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

No! Takfir wal-Hijra is one specific example of a takfiri organization. This article should be about takfiris in general, not just Takfir wal-Hijra. GCarty 12:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm ... takfiri is just one of the names Muslims call each other ... like munafiq, hypocrite. What movements other than Takfir wal Hijra do you consider takfiri? Zora 12:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I'd say Al-Qaeda in Iraq and the Groupe Islamique Armé are also examples of takfiri organizations. GCarty 16:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Takfiri Philosophy

Picking up from the above discussion, I think the term 'takfiri' as used between Muslims is more than a generic insult... it has become an important philosophical distinction for Muslims. There are some interesting parallels in Western philosophy. I don't know how appropriate it is to mix between civilizations, but I added links to Consequentialism and from "The ends justify the means" as related concepts. Comments? Spir 07:28, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major rewrite

I distinguished between two ways that the term is used today: in a neutral way, to refer to followers of Takfir wal-Hijra, and as an epithet, to be flung at Wahabis and Salafis. I tried to give a neutral account of its use as an epithet. However, the bits I wrote desperately need quotes and references. It's nearly 4 AM here and I have to get up and go to class in six hours, so I'll leave it here. I hope that those of you quarreling over this article will be willing to fill in the blanks in the sections for your own opinions, and will be able to refrain from removing the sections for those who don't share your opinions. Zora 13:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

For Admins, please take a look at the history of the article. Users such as User:Sun shinez forever, User:No problem 1254, User:Dreamz rosez, User:Heats of heaven, and possibly many others, were created as a revertign machine for this article. Not to mention his many random IPs. They are probably sockpuppets of a radical user with an obious agenda. As User:Zora said: The article is being used to attack religious groups with which the editor does not agree. --AraLink 06:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as the one who protected the article: This was a long-running content dispute with no attempts having been made to discuss it on the talk page. Some versions probably had WP:NPOV problems but the point of protecting the article is to force the feuding parties to come to some agreement on a version which represents all viewpoints. Once you feel that has been achieved, place a request for unprotection at WP:RFPP. —dgies^t_c 06:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Takfiri Salafists

That is the term I see most often as synonymous for Al-Qae?da or quasi AQ. here is a quote of its use from a random google search

• It is takfiri Salafist (Sunni) extremist ideology that menaces the world. Shi'ite extremism is a different animal entirely -- and much more amenable to control by religious hierarchies. Sunni Imams, conversely, are freelancers. That's why it can legitimate an apostate group like al Qaeda.[1]Godspeed John Glenn! Will 01:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please rewrite

I saw the word takfiris in an article and having never seen it before, wondered what it meant. So I came to Wikipedia and sad to say I still don't know what the word means. I hope that you will rewrite the article to make the word more comprehensible. Sbowers3 22:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)