Talk:Taiyi Shengshui
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[edit] Taiyi Shengshui
Hello, This article needs alot of work. I cannot write the article myself at this time, so here I shall put some things. The correct Chinese text for the beginning is:
太一生水，水反輔太一，是以成天。天反輔太一，是以成地。天地复相輔也，是以成神明。神明复相輔也，是以成陰陽。陰陽复相輔也，是以成四時。四時复相輔也，是以成滄熱。滄熱复相輔也，是以成濕燥。濕燥复相輔也，成歲而止。
I believe Shui 水 should be read as Liu 流 – Flow(ing), as in the modern Shuiliu 水流 – "flowing, current." It is likely this understanding of Daoism that prompted Alan Watts to entitle his book on Daoism “Tao: The Watercourse Way.” However, you want to translate Shui as Water, that's okay.
In the 33rd chapter of the Zhuangzi, we are told that Lao Dan regarded this same “Great One (Tai Yi 太一)” as supreme.
Reference to Taiyi in the Han text Huainanzi ch. 14: 洞同天地，渾沌為樸，未造而成物，謂之太一。 "When the Heavens and the Earth were undifferentiated, all was chaotic (Hundun) and simple, nothing had been made and yet it was complete in itself, this we call the Great One (Tai Yi)."
“Tai Yi” can be understood as one synonym of Dao. In the Lüshi Chunqiu, 5.2 – “The Dao is the supreme instance of the seminal essence, for it cannot be given shape or name. ‘Forced to give it a name, I would call it the Grand One’” (Knoblock & Riegel p. 138). According to Li Ling, who has written extensively on the “cult of Tai Yi” in the ancient state of Chu, Tai Yi “referred to a linked set of concepts: an ultimate, a supreme spirit, an astral body, and the Dao.” (p. 163 The Guodian Laozi: Proceedings of the International Conference, 1998.) Bao Pu 17:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Relationship to Shangshu
Hi Mamgeorge, I was just reading the Taiyi Shengshui page, and noticed the similarity to "天一生水" (Tianyi Shengshui) in Shangshu: "天一生水，地二生火，天三生木，地四生金。地六成水，天七成火，地八成木，天九成金，天五生土". I wonder if they are connected.
Hello, Sumple. I hope my "reorg" is not too confusing. I saw if I did not do that fast I would be paging through tons of stuff on my talk page!
- I wonder too. Do you have a specific reference (book chapter verse)? Also, a version may be necessary; I could not confirm the existence of those phrases in the Chinese version I have. Also, I can not recall a similar enumeration from my reading of the text.
- Assuming a different version, my first impression was that the translation rules were not applied the same. Let me know your source details!
- mamgeorge 16:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmm the Shangshu reference is apparently 《尚书大传·五行传》 - but I don't have a copy of the book so I can't verify that. The phrase is also apparently mentioned in 《易经》 and 《上纯阳真经·了三得一经》. The phrase is famous because the library Tianyi Pavilion (Private_library#Famous_private_libraries) is named after it.
- You know what my theory is? "Taiyi Shengshui" is a typo (either a mistake with the original source or a mistake in transcription), since 天一生水 is more well known, whereas 太一生水 is (apparently) known from a single specimen. --Sumple (Talk) 05:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Sumple. A couple of comments:
- 1) I could not find the Shangshu chapter reference you provided in the Shangshu article. Also, I can not find the phrase "天一生水" after I scanned for it in the chinese Shangshu or the chinese Yijing. If you do see this connection again, please add the source details (book chapter verse version). Such a connection (I feel) would represent an important understanding in the ancient perception of heaven.
- Incidentally, I asked you for the version you use without providing mine; sorry about that! My English version for Wujing materials is from Legges translation; primarily because the electronic versions are easily available and I can scan it easily. My Chinese copies I downloaded from many different sources and did not save the weblinks; I can try to identify them if it becomes an issue.
- 2) I do not know anything about the 上纯阳真经 (I read literally as: Above Pure Positive True Classic). I would appreciate any detail about this book, if you have it; ideally date, author, type, summary if you can.
- 3) I agree there are many explanations. There could be different versions, or your version may have included commentary with those phrases. When I first started to dig up the chinese characters for the book title, one compiler represented it as "大一生水" not "太一生水". I wrote the later because of the pinyin; but because "da" and "tai" have related meanings, I could not be sure if the other title was a legitimate variation or an error.
- Thanks for the dialog! mamgeorge 15:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
