Talk:Taiwan under Qing Dynasty rule

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[edit] First "Chinese" occupation of Taiwan

This article states that the Qing rule period (from 1683) is the first time in history that China occupied Taiwan. I'm a little iffy on this because back then the Manchus were not considered Chinese, but Koxinga (Ming) was. I'm inclined to think that when the Dutch surrendered in 1662, that was the first time that Taiwan was under ethnic (Han) Chinese occupation AND administration. I'm interested in everyone's opinion on this topic.

-- Adeptitus 18:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Koxinga's kingdom was not considered as "China", he didn't conquer or occupy both Taiwan and China at the same time. It's correct that his men were Han Chinese; however, at that time most of the people on Taiwan were the Taiwanese aborigines. It was during the Qing Dynasty that there were more people moved to Taiwan from China.--Jerrypp772000 18:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "an attempted uprising every three years and a revolt every five years."

"an attempted uprising every three years and a revolt every five years."

Can anyone find exact quote, carefully sourced? Thanks! --Ling.Nut 16:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "more than a hundred rebellions"

"more than a hundred rebellions when Qing ruled" Anyone can find a source to this statement? Redcloud822 05:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Header dispute

The start of this article has serious issues. First, the notion that China only ruled Taiwan for the first time during the Qing dynasty is questionable, with certain sources arguing for previous Ming rule, and/or connections with the Yuan. If multiple reliable sources are in conflict, the conflict should be described rather than glossed over. Second, the "only time China ruled Taiwan for more than five years" is really dubious; everything else aside, what about the regime there today? It ruled and rules there (fairly or not, rightly or wrongly) for 62+ years as of 2008. To imply that the present rule is somehow "not Chinese" is POV pushing.Ngchen (talk) 03:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The ROC until very recently was Chinese, but it was not China after 1949. However, given your legitimate concerns about claims that China first ruled Taiwan when the Qing took over, we can maintain NPOV by removing both statements. I hope you don't mind that I also removed the "disputed" tag. Readin (talk) 03:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Things look OK now.Ngchen (talk) 17:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Han and aborigines

Nice additions Pyl. The article needed more substance and you provided some.

However, I think this paragraph may give a false impression, or perhaps I have a false impression:

Despite the restrictions, the population of Han Chinese in Taiwan grew rapidly from 100,000 to 2,500,000, while the population of Indigenous Taiwanese peoples shrank. The Han Chinese also occupied most of the plains and developed good agricultural systems and prosperous commence, and consequently transformed Taiwan into a Han society.

Consider this paragraph from Taiwan aborigine

During the Qing Dynasty’s two-century rule over Taiwan, the population of Han on the island increased dramatically. However, it is not clear to what extent this was due to an influx of Han settlers, who were predominantly displaced young men from Zhangzhou and Quanzhou in Fujian province (Tsao 1999:331) or from a variety of other factors, including: frequent intermarriage between Han and Aborigines, the replacement of aboriginal marriage and abortion taboos, and the widespread adoption of the Han agricultural lifestyle due to the depletion of traditional game stocks, which may have led to increased birth rates and population growth. Moreover, the acculturation of Aborigines in increased numbers may have intensified the perception of a swell in the number of Han.

I know I've read that the marriage rate between aborigine women and Han men was so high that there was a saying that went something like "every maternal grandmother an aborigine, every paternal grandfather a Han" (if you know it please correct it because I'm sure I didn't get it exaclty right).

The paragraph in the article leaves the impression that the Han moved in and the aborgines moved out. Instead it may have been more of an assimilation, with many aborigines staying in place while adapting Han customs, and other aborigines assimilating through marriage. Readin (talk) 03:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment Readin. I appreciate it.

Yeah your quote is interesting because it seems to suggest a different picture from the information that I extracted from the government information office website. I just re-read the website, as well as the Chinese version of this article, neither of them said anything about the inter-marriage of the two groups of people being the main reason for the low indigenous population. However, a related extract from the Chinese version of the article says as follows:-

..., 而漢人也經常侵占其土地，或做黑心交易，因此常有漢番衝突產生。當時清廷委實不願多管，索性採「畫界封山」政策，劃定番界，並設石碑於界線，將漢人以及原住民隔離，同時也設「理番同知」一官調節其紛爭。但應政策不落實，且理番同知皆為漢人，原住民容易就吃虧。所以原住民土地常被明爭暗奪，有時漢人甚至以通婚之名佔據土地，多人仍越過番界來耕種、經商，衝突仍十分頻繁。

The Han people frequently occupied the indigenous land or conducted illegal business with the indigenous peoples, so conflicts often happened. During that time, the Qing government was not interested in managing this matter. It simply drew the borders and closed up the mountain area so they could segregate the two groups. It also implemented a policy which assumed that the indigenous peoples would understand the law as much as the Han Chinese, so when conflicts arose the indigenous peoples tended to be judged unfairly. Accordingly, indigenous land were often taken through both legal and illegal methods, sometimes the Han Chinese even used inter-marriage as an excuse to occupy land. Many people crossed the maintain borders to farm and to conduct business, and conflicts frequently arose.

What would you suggest? Should I put the above paragraph in the article so it gives a more complete picture?--Pyl (talk) 07:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed the Chinese version of the article also said the following relating to inter-marriage:-

又對大陸人民移民台灣嚴格限制，禁止攜帶家眷，故渡台者多半為單身男子，或是已有家眷，但受限制無法攜帶妻子來台的已婚男子。因此，早期渡台男子者多半選擇與平埔族女子通婚，因此而有所謂「有唐山公、無唐山媽」的說法。

There were severe restrictions on mainland residents migrating to Taiwan: no family members could accompany the migrant. Therefore, most migrants were mostly single men or married men with wives remaining on the mainland. Most early male migrants to Taiwan would choose to marry the women from the Ping Pu clan. Accordingly, there was a saying which stated that "there were mainland men, but no mainland women".--Pyl (talk) 07:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, you used the GIO for your source. That makes sense. When I had time to look for info I saw that site and it agreed with what you said. We need to get a reference in the article (a reference as apposed to a "see also"). I'm not sure exactly which stuff you took from that site so if you don't mind I'll let you put the references in.
Since you have a reliable source (if the KMT held the presidency I would suggest that they want to emphasize the "Han-ness" of the modern population, but with the DPP holding the presidency and presumably control over the GIO, I won't suggest that) we'll have to leave it pretty much as is until we can find another reliable source to clarify things. Readin (talk) 00:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)