Talk:Tailed beasts/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Orochimaru a Jinchuriki?

I understand that this is already a heated topic among fans, so I wont go over aspects of the debate that are already worn out. All I have to say is in refrence to the theories displayed on this page. The article uses Orochimaru having chakra in an amount comaprable to Naruto as a bases for the theory...however I cannot find any anime episode or manga chapter where this is stated, the only person who's chakra capacity has been compared to Naruto thus far is Kisame. Futher it is of note that Gaara's Chakra has never been compared to Naruto's which would suggest at the very least the possibility that extreme charkra reserves arnt an side-effect of containing Biju as a whole, but rather and side-effect of containing the kyubi specifically. Much like Naruto has never displayed any automatic defense measures similar to gaara's sand defense.

Another thing is the whole 8 tailed Orochi thing....as far as I can tell the Orich is ann eight-headed snake, not an 8 tailed one. So how would it fit in as one of the great tailed demons? This however could simply be a lack of information on my end on Japanese lore.--Master Shan 23:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yamata no Orochi has eight tails and heads, in all legends in which he is the "bad guy". (see [1]) In the Legend of the war of the god-demons, he is the Habachi. The theory is, if you follow the original tale, that inside of Orochimaru resides only the soul of the Habachi, but the power of it within a true ninja genius - like Sasuke. So the two must unfortunately be unified one day in order to prevent a catastrophe. Mary C. 01:30 21 July 2006

The Habachi does. Not sure about Orochi. Personally, I just want to delete it, as it's mostly fancruft anyway; however, I don't because I feel it's a bit too large to snap off instantly. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 23:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Orochi has eight heads and eight tails, so it could still be a contender. On the Automatic defence, Naruto has accelerated healing - not exactly a defence, but still a measure of protection. Phoenix1985 19:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The explanation for the fictional word Jinchuriki is very interesting, reading from here: [2]. I ask that anyone confident in their understanding of the word to include a detailed definition (etymology et al), and if possible a wikilink or reference to the "human pillar" practice. --Lionelster 04:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Yikes, bad link! It's corrected now. --Lionelster 08:58, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I was searching for information about these monsters when I came across that: [3]. I don't know where it comes from. Apparently it was released at first on a chinese board, then translated in English. It sounds odd to me, sounds more like a fanfic than an actual legend. Maybe it comes from a recent novel, but I have no real idea of where to search. It may be old news or a known hoax, but I couldn't pass by without notifying it.--Bloodstained Agar 11:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

For the animals that these biju represent, is it too much for their names to be in English? Seriously, who is going to know what a Mujina or a Hachimata is right off the bat? --Detective X 08:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Translating between english and japanese doesnt really work that way. For example, a "Kitsune" is literaly a Fox, and a "Tanuki" literaly is a Raccoon Dog, but the others are more strictly fantasy creatures of japan, with no "real world" counterparts.

I (not signed in!) stuck some brief (2/3 word) descriptions of what they are next to them, hope nobody minds- it's just easier this way for readers who aren't familiar with Japan. To prove just how hard it is for us, I couldn't even figure out what some of the creatures were meant to be even with the name! Could someone please fill in the gaps? --Oppolo 10:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

You know, I was wondering about the whole Orochimaru-being-the-8-tails-container thing. In honesty, Orochimaru seems just as good a candidate for the Nekomata. Consider:

He has the ability to manipulate corpses (It's practically his signature), which the Nekomata is renowned for.
According to the Nekomata legend, it took the form of a female, so in keeping with that, many speculate that a Nekomata Jinchuriki would be female. Orochimaru USED to be male, it's true. But he's currently in a female body, as revealed in the fight against the third.
His eyes seem snakelike - but they might also be considered catlike.
Orochimaru uses snake-type powers, but that doesn't necessarily make him a snake container. Naruto has the Kyuubi, but his tactics don't have much of a foxy ring to them. Orochimaru's snake abilities could just be an 'outer veneer' so to speak.

Also, as for having to re-seal his Biju with each transfer to a new body; sealing a Biju requires the power of a human sacrifice (Gaara's mother; Yondaime Hokage). The life of the person whose body Orochimaru steals could be used for this purpose, perhaps. Phoenix1985 14:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason people presume that Orochimaru contains the 8-tails or IS the 8-tails is that Orochi was a legendary 8-headed, 8-TAILED snake in Japanese mythology, which had the sword Kusanagi in it's body. It should also be noted that in the mythology, Orochi was killed by Susanoo, brother of Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, which are the names of two of Itachi's attacks.

Incidentally, Naruto DOES display traits of foxes, or more specifically, the kitsune. Kitsune were well known for shapeshifting and playing pranks on people, both traits which Naruto displays, with his Henge no Jutsu and other variations of the technique. In the original pilot for the manga, his Henge no Jutsu specfically related to the kitsune's penchant for shapeshifting. WtW-Suzaku 05:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Heh, fair enough. My bad :) Phoenix1985 19:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

i love the discussion about how u guys think Orochimaru is a Jinchurri.. i had actually not thoguth about this before. But under further investigation i would have to disagree sadly... because if he was one they would have mentioned it in before? dont you guys remember in the begening where there said only 1 bijuu terrorized konoha? or maybe that was another manga.... hmm more research =D -Gekko Hayate

They might not have mentioned it simply because it isn't the right point in the story yet. They didn't mention Gaara's demon until a fair while after his introduction. Also, Orochi wouldn't necessarily have had to attack Konoha to get sealed. Maybe Orochimaru came from a different village or something. Phoenix1985 19:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The Nibi no Nekomata has been revealed to be sealed in Yugito so the Orochimaru possibilty should be dumped.

i didnt read all of the posts but in my opinion, akatsuki members have monstrous chakra as well right? and orochimaru did happen to be in akatsuki at one point right? take this into consideration... KKIPPES 05:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Reijuu, a Bijuu?

This is purely speculation, of course, but Naruto RPG 3 for the Nintendo DS will be centered around an original, completely new story set between Naruto Parts I and II. The plot involves a young woman named Nazura who has come to Konoha to make a request, and a mysterious organization of shinobi mercenaries known as "Mu". Featured in some promotional art is Reijuu (lit. "Sacred Beast), which appears as a massive catfish with mutiple mouths and red markings on it's body; it's tail obscurred by Itachi.

I bring this up because Reijuu bears some similarity to Yuugyo, a mythological fish in Japanese mythology with multiple heads, red fur, and THREE TAILS. It is also interesting that Akatsuki will be playing some role in the game, and Itachi has already been seen in screenshots and artwork. We all know that he and Itachi don't stray far apart.

I know that the game features a plot not from the manga, but the anime filler has featured one of the seven swordsmen of the mist, and the games have also been known to premier jutsu which would later be used in the manga, so I'd say it's entirely possible that the game could be about one of the two bijuu which Akatsuki has already captured as of Part II.

Well, it's just speculation, but so is a large portion of this article, so hey, maybe it should be added just for the heck of it? XD

GRR DARNIT!! I WAS GUNA SAY THAT!! very nice... i just bought the game and thoguht the same thing -DalazShinobi

The three-tailed biju has been revealed as well and is known as the Sanbi, a three-tailed turle-like monster.

I think considering it's name is sacred beast, it is based off a multi-tailed mythological creature, itachi is standing in front of it, and it is from an already announced ORIGINAL story, we could mention it as possibly the biju of that game. I say it should be added.

You don't know it's a demon, since the game hasn't been released. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 23:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Kabuto - A Jinchūriki?

The entry for the Nibi states that Kabuto could possibly be the Jinchūriki for the two-tailed demon. However, I can't help but find this to be a bit unlikely. Beyond all the stuff about how him not being a true Akatsuki member and all that, there's something else worth pointing out...back in the Tsunade arc, when Kabuto fought Tsunade and Naruto, he took a Solider Pill before he did. If he truly had the power of a biju inside him, why the heck would he need to take a Soldier Pill to focus his chakra?

I think this part can be ruled out now... because we know which one is the 2nd bijuu welcome thanks -Gekko Hayate

Living Ghost

i added "The Living Ghost" to Nibi's profile because of what i believe is to be page 13 of chapter 313 when Hidan says "so this is the two-talied deom cat they call 'The Living Ghost'". --Ancientanubis 20:20, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Deidara: Possible Shichibi Jinchūriki?

Hey, I've noticed: Under the Shichibi ("Seven Tails"), it says that the creature is possibly a "Kaku - a seven-tailed badger, considered the elemental of earth, which had the power to transform himself using clay". This might account for his powers, or at least could be a reference to it. This is speculation, but could this be added? 2/3 of the article is speculatory anyway... The Wretched 21:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Good idea to move here. Most of the article isn't speculation, since it's hardly an article. It's 6 empty sections and an introduction. Speculating on who they may be in is pointless, because I can practically guarantee you that not one of the unknowns is in a currently-introduced character. Also, Deidara's a weakling (comparatively speaking). There's no way he has the Shichibi. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

That's an opinion. Deidara was still able to capture Gaara. And Akatsuki requires strong individuals, at least, that's what the article said. And it is speculatory because it keeps saying possible creature types (i.e.: Shichibi, possibly a Kaku...). If seculation is bad, then why do we have this article in the first place? The Wretched 22:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

But isn't Akatsuki trying to capture and seal all the bijuu? Wouldn't Deidara have to give up his Shichibi at some point if he wanted to stay in the gang? 75.72.230.72 04:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah, but then he'd be dead. he wouldnt be in akatsuki anyway. KKIPPES 05:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Akatsuki, Bijū, and Jinchūriki

Okay, continuing this arguement I keep having with SomeGuy(numbers here) in the history section.

1. It never said when they captured the Bijū. They could've captured Hachibi when Orochimaru was in service.

2. That's why it's speculatory. These are the (speculated) possibilities:

Sanbi: Kisame
Shichibi: Deidara (didn't add this, 'cause I wasn't sure if this was widely speculated or if this was just something that only I noticed. See the above section)
Hachibi: Orochimaru

Though they have the Shukaku, any of these are possible since the other two have not been confirmed. The Wretched 22:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

i would just like to put in here that the akatsuki is puting the jinchuriki into the unknow "thing" that they put the shukaku in and it was stated that that would kill the host so i dout the ppl mentioned abuv have the demons bacause akatsuki would not want to kill a member so would not deside to do that i nthe first place. gaaras sister

Again, if they had Habachi, then Orochimaru wouldn't be a host. They had two at one point, and the evidence suggests that they aquired them recently (remember their three-year wait?). Do you really think they'd only collect two during a three-year gap? Speculation isn't helpful unless it's well-founded. All the biju being sealed is well-founded. The names are based on mythology and well-founded. Your assertions are not well-founded. They're just guesses based on random tibits. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Lol, Habachi. Anyway, it doesn't say anywhere that Akatsuki is the only organization and/or people with Bijū. They still could've captured a Hachibi during Orochimaru's membership. But now, they don't have it, 'cause Orochimaru left. And (not that this has anything to do with this) where does it say that all Bijū are currently sealed? That's not well-founded. Just because all of them that are displayed so far are sealed, it doesn't mean that the others aren't running loose somewhere. And what evidence suggests them being captured recently? The Wretched 22:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Habachi, Hachibi, whatever. I'm not bothering to spell it correctly here. Besides, sounds better as Habachi. Anyway, I didn't say all were captured recently, I said the ones Akatsuki had were recent. Were they collecting for three years, then they'd have 7 or more, not 2 (excluding Gaara). Also, we're not talking about other organizations. We don't care about other organizations. We care about the one. Akatsuki had two when they went to capture Gaara. This was likely done recently, since they probably have 8 now. Second, we know that the biju haven't been attacking, since that'd be some inportant news, so they must be sealed. Obviously, since it's Jinchūriki that Akatsuki is searching for, they obviously know that, too. Conversely, what logical proof can you give to make us believe that either Orochimaru or Kisame has a biju? – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine, call it whatever you want, I don't give a damn. I do it too (I pronouce Goombas from Mario games as "Goumbas"). Anyways, what proof can you give anyone that says that Akatsuki capture them that quickly? If what you say is true, then they absolutely would have to have all of them since Akatsuki has been around longer than the time-skip. Evidence: Orochimaru joining them and then leaving. I doubt that would take 2 seconds. He wasn't in Akatsuki when he was first introduced in the series, but he had been a member before. Also, if they took them that quickly, then why wouldn't they have Naruto's? Of course he's the titular main character, and as such should never die, or could but later be revived, or given a very sad ending to the series (which would kinda suck since all of his goals are based off of him being able to live), but if Naruto was the last Jinchūriki, then I doubt they would resist sending everyone in Akatsuki to capture him. Their skill or whatever you're basing this off of means nothing in terms of quickness. And who cares about not caring? Akatsuki is the main organization with the goals for Bijū, but that doesn't mean anything in regards to who else has them (note the word has instead of wants). And I didn't say that any Bijū were currently attacking. In fact, being a Bijū doesn't necessarily mean being the same as Hidan (getting all like "Destroy Everything"). They're depicted as and are normally vicious, but still, anything's possible. Some could have yet to attack. That's speculatory, but so is your statement on how much time it takes for Akatsuki to capture a Bijū. The Wretched 23:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is, but I'm not mentioning it in the article. Let me make a further point. They specifically say that they're going to wait three years shortly after their failure to capture Naruto. Given this, they likely expanded their goals to include the other biju. What you're talking about is ignoring what is known to further your point. We know they have two in Part II. We know they waited three years to start. This means they're obviously pretty damn good at their jobs. Furthermore, we know that two are heading to the Land of Fire. We do not know if others are doing the same. They could be. On top of that, what organization besides Akatsuki could possibly control the biju? Only shinobi possess that kind of skill. Any organizations that might or might not exist are irrelevant, as they would not be as powerful. As for Orochimaru, if he had a biju, then they'd be attacking him, not spying on him. He knows he'd lose head on. There's no logical way to explain him having one. He'd be far more powerful were that the case. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 23:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

When did it say that they waited three years to start? When did it ever say that they weren't already trying to capture Bijū before Naruto? And by Organization(s), I mean Orochimaru and Otogakure no Sato (to which they'd only have one Bijū, and as I said, they're not hunting them, they just have one 'cause of Orochimaru). And duh, Orochimaru is already powerful. He was able to kill Sandaime Hokage. It also states somewhere around here that they're not attacking him yet because he's too powerful (ironically, it's also the other way around). The Wretched 00:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Spammer putting penis on the article

How do you remove it? I didn't need to see that when I was looking for information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.189.67.134 (talk • contribs) .

What are you talking about?Nemu 20:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Just good old-fashioned vandalism. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 21:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

HAHAHA!--Kenshin -Himura 22:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Uh, why is this here again? KKIPPES 05:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

sanbi

It is noted that all the biju are derived from myths. Whhich myth is the sanbi from. Can someone who is an expert in Japenese myth find out? -ScotchMB 13:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a three-tailed turtle in Korean mythology, supposedly a disguise of the Dragon King. That's all I could find right now. --125.212.126.238 15:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The Kyuubi (or Nine-Tailed Fox) is deprived from a myth that a fox gains a tail every 100 years and gains magical powers on the thousandth year. It's still quite confusing since we're talking about a ten-tailed fox and the Kyuubi only has nine.Benpercent 00:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Kyūbi

can anyone tell me where i can find lots of pics of Kyūbi?--Geterdone 13:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a Naruto discussion forum.--24.149.204.116 22:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Where???

Where the heck can I get more facts on Kyuubi? Tell me! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Conker:Live&reloaded (talk • contribs) .

What you see is what you get. There's no more facts. If you want the myth behind it, try kitsune. Also, don't make stupid "Tell me!" comments. It's annoying. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 23:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

1000 years, 9 tails?

If the Kyubi gets it's first tail at age 100, and it's 9th at age 1000, then why does the page say it gets one every 100 years? There would need to be a gap somewhere. TransNique 06:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I fixed it. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 17:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't sure how to best handle it (I've only recently started keeping up with the Naruto storyline. TransNique 06:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Kyubi said to be the strongest Biju? Citations?

Obviously there's a certain clichéd metalogic to Naruto having the strongest Biju sealed in him (and possibly Orochimaru, the nemesis, having the second strongest), but I can't see it said anywhere that this is the case in the manga or the anime (although I have missed some of the anime). The Kyubi transformation that Naruto underwent certainly shows a link between number of tails and strength but I'm not convinced that means the same logic holds for the other Biju. For example, Gaara's Shukaku transformation also grows slowly stronger, but his version manifests in progressively more sand covering his body.

Regarding the Shukaku, the only reference I can see to it's chakra reserve is where Gaara is being evacuated from the Country of Fire by Temari and Kankuro after being clobbered by Naruto. There, Kankuro comments that he has never seen Gaara completely exhausted before. (Can't find a quote, and in any case it'd be in Japanese.) This sort of surprise could easily be applied to Naruto's stamina.

Obviously, since Gaara has been defeated it's easy to think that his Biju was weaker than Naruto's, especially after seeing it fight Gamabunta and hearing about the apparently greater devastation caused by the Kyubi. However, it is also said that the Shukaku was growing stronger the longer Gaara remained unconscious, possibly to the point of rivalling the Kyubi.

Anyway, all of this speculation is pointless if there is an official source that says the Kyubi is the strongest Biju, but I can't find one in the manga or anime. If there isn't one, I'd quite like to reword or delete the ranking system reference in the first paragraph. It doesn't make sense to me but I wanted to discuss the point before I edited the article, hence, here are my thoughts on the matter. -- AvatarZero 23:34, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

It has the "ultimate chakra", as described by Jiraiya. It's on the top of Akatsuki's list of biju to collect. There's probably more, but there's your initial proof. It is the strongest of the nine, thus why it has the most tails. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 22:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. Where does does Jiraiya say that? I have both the manga and the anime so either an episode number or a chapter number would be helpful. I'd also like to know where the Akatsuki reference comes from, if you can help me. -- AvatarZero 09:42, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Jiraiya says so in a flashback during Kakashi's first fight with Itachi (episode 82 or 83). The leader of Akatsuki mentions the latter point in Part II, I'd assume after Gaara's capture. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 14:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, now I've had a chance to check those references and I haven't found anything relating to the "ranking system" referred to in the first paragraph in the article, nor any evidence at all so suggest there is a serious variation in power between the biju. First of all, the Akatsuki leader never mentions anything regarding Naruto being a primary target for Akatsuki, aside from their desire to collect all nine. Secondly, I found the flashback where Jiraiya tells Kakashi about Akatsuki and the Kyubi. (Anime episode 82, starts about 15 minutes into the episode depending on how you're watching it.) However, Jiraiya describes the Kyubi as only one of the monsters possessing the ultimate chakra.

That first paragraph seems to have no verifiable source. Is it just speculation? If so, I don't think it should be here. -- AvatarZero 23:38, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

While I'm sure it's noted somewhere to be the strongest, it would seem prudent to have some sort of source to back that up. I'll rephrase it. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 23:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, take this as reference as well: The 4th Hokage paid with his life to take out the Kyubi while it only took Deidara a couple of those goofy clay bombs to take out the Sanbi. --Beef noodles 02:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

On the episode where Jiraiya fought Itachi and Kisame, Itachi said that obtaining the Kyubi is Akatsuki's top priority.

It's common knowledge that the nine tails is the most powerful creature in japanese lore. Which is why there isn't many reference to it being the strongest because the author was writing to a Japanese audience and in Japan the fox itself is a very respected animal. So he assumed the fans would be familar with the ledgend much like any anime based on Chinese ledgends would have the audience assume the character with abilites simalar to the monkey to be the strongest charcter. Such as the Dragon Ball series is based on the ledgend of Son Goku the monkey king whick the Third Hokage's summond is based on.

True. The whole series is based off a Japanese legend of nine tailed beasts. And true again, the nine-tails is the strongest of the nine. But don't use the Japanese legend as a guide to Naruto because many of the myths are mixed up in the show. Such as Orchamaru being a container.--Benpercent 16:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The whole series is based off a Japanese legend of nine tailed beasts. Again, no. No it isn't. This "legend" was made up by fans and has no basis in mythology or folklore. Please see the thread I started at the bottom of the talk page. Kotengu 18:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Jinchuriki

I've noticed that Yugito falls into the "Unsorted Characters" category in the character article, and I can only imagine that other Jinchuriki would end up the same when they are seen further down the line. Would it be wise to turn this into an article concerning Biju and Jinchuriki? That is, a brief description of the Jinchuriki is added to the section concerning his or her Biju. For those Jinchuriki that greatly impact the series, such as Gaara and Naruto, the description can be substituted with a link to their main page. So far, we have two major Jinchuriki (the containers of the Ichibi and the Kyubi), one minor Jinchuriki who can be described on this page (the container of the Nibi), and one Biju without a Jinchuriki (the Sanbi). The rest are unknown, and two of them probably won't have mentioned Jinchuriki as they have been captured by Akatsuki already. So in reality, the article won't change too much. Thoughts? 75.24.92.170 05:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Orochi

The Orochi is a eight headed snake and not eight tailed so it can not be possibly be the eight tailed Biju.

Read several of the topics above. And several of the archived topics. The Orochi is a snake with eight heads and eight tails. It's referred to as "eight-headed" so that it does not get confused with the Hachimata, which has one head and eight tails. 75.24.92.170 06:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Renaming

Should the Biju be renamed to their English counterparts (like Kyubi to Nine-tails)? Neither the manga nor the anime use "Kyubi". The Splendiferous Gegiford 18:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

A good idea, but then again, we only know the one name. Going by "X-tails" seems good for the moment. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 18:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

We could do what was done for all the jutsu pages; rather than having each section titled as "Romanji (Translation)", we could just have each section titled with the translation. So, changes would be:

Ichibi no Shukaku ("One-tailed Shukaku") → One-tailed Shukaku
Nibi no Nekomata ("Two-Tailed Demon Cat") → Two-Tailed Demon Cat
Sanbi ("Three Tails") → Three Tails
Yonbi ("Four Tails") → Four Tails
Gobi ("Five Tails") → Five Tails
Rokubi ("Six Tails") → Six Tails
Shichibi ("Seven Tails") → Seven Tails
Hachibi ("Eight Tails") → Eight Tails
Kyubi no Yoko ("Nine-tailed Demon Fox") → Nine-tailed Demon Fox

It's just a thought. And it would make linking to each biju slightly easier. ~SnapperT o 19:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. At least we'll get the English name for Shukaku soon. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 19:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

So I guess I'll change that then, and then go through all of the articles and fix the links. But what should the frequent usage of the word "Kyubi" be replaced with, if anything? ~SnapperT o 20:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"Demon fox" or just "fox" where appropriate. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 20:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

For example, the tailed states could go by "x-tailed fox form" and regular references could go by "the demon fox left" etc, etc. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 20:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Okey doke then. I'll do something similar for Shukaku and the other two biju. Which brings up a couple more questions: should "biju" and "jinchuriki" be left as they are, or should they be replaced with something that's actually English? ~SnapperT o 20:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot about that. I suppose "tailed beasts" would be a better term to use. As for jinchuriki, make that "host" and you're done. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 20:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

How extremely irritating that they chose today to lock the database for over an hour. In any event, I've moved this page and have fixed the articles that are most likely to need the above changes, and I'll start going through the other pages in a moment (assuming, of course, that the database isn't locked again). Someone may want to go over my changes to make sure I haven't changed something I shouldn't, that I didn't miss something, or to see if I changed something to the wrong tense/capitalization. ~SnapperT o 22:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but Host is a poor name. Container or Harbourer would suit better. Grrblt 12:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Host is easier, though, and carries the same meaning. Shouldn't be capitalized, as well.

Host is used for a variety of things, such as Oro's possessed bodies. We need to differentiate the two, and changing the jinchuuriki name from host to harbourer would signify that it is not just any host but a Host. Grrblt 15:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

For now, shouldn't we assume that Shukaku, Nekomata, and Yoko would stay the same in the English versions? While jutsu names are translated, besides that most (if not all) of the character names remained the same in the dubs (re-ordering doesn't count). The only one I can think of is the "Konohamaru Corps" being changed to the "Konohamaru Ninja Squad" or something like that, which isn't really a personal name, anyways. You Can't See Me! 20:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

First off, the Kyubi is called the nine-tailed (demon) fox in the dub, so part of your statement is wrong already. Second, WP:Use English is a guideline/policy that we should be following. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 20:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

THE INTERNET: Serious Business - Malomeat 08:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I forgot about this during the whole deletion of the attack section of One Piece. The anime and manga naming policy backs "Biju".

Google search made a while ago:
Biju Naruto: 15,100 hits
"Tailed Beasts" Naruto: 1,360 hits

Google search made today:
Biju Naruto: 11,700
"Tailed Beasts" Naruto: 663

I have no clue why the results went down in both of them, well, as I've said: The intarweb is weird! (Justyn 00:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC))

Edits to Nine-Tails Article

The Nine Tails article has good content, but IMO could be written better. Here are the list of changes I'm making and why, so someone doesn't go back and reset the page.

dut -> due (spelling), excise -> exercise (spelling), it's -> its (word misuse),
"Naruto typically accesses this prodigious supply of chakra from the demon fox when in an extreme emotional state or in life-threatening situations" -> Replace "an extreme emotional state" with "extreme emotional states" so that the nouns are in agreement (both plural)
"Upon first accessing it, the demon fox's innate rage took over Naruto's mind, causing him to strike out at whatever was near him at the time" -> "When Naruto accesses it at the beginning of the series, the demon fox's innate rage takes... at whatever is near him at the time" (noun agreement - present tense)
In the following sentence, "Afterward" was changed to "Later," and "learned" to "learns" (tense agreement again)
"In the one-tailed to three-tailed states, Naruto's personality remains dominant, but acquires some of the" -> I added an "Naruto" after "but" because it is Naruto who aquires some of the Kyubbi's personality, not his personality. His expressed personality changes, but Naruto's personality does not inherently change.
Suggestions: "The demon fox's chakra is not without drawbacks, however" seems awkward. It should be rephrased. I like the sentence insofar that it emphasises the 'however' though...

And where was the Kyubbi's "one in a million chance" of breaking free given? The chances of the Kyuubi breaking free are low, but I have never seen heard of the actual number being given. Unless it can be confirmed, it should be removed. --AstoVidatu 18:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Two things - I changed another instance of "Naruto's personality" to "Naruto." However, I'm not sure that is the right thing to do. If Naruto's personality is truly 'supplanted' or is it 'affected' by the Kyubbi? If it is supplanted, it should be "Naruto." However, if the truth is that Naruto's personality does truly change, and that it is affected by the Kyubbi, it should be "Naruto's personality." I'll let you guys sort this one out. --AstoVidatu 18:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I tried to make an edit myself but it got deleted as well.

Here's what I tried to add:

The Kyuubi has instant healing and is able to physically mold, shape, and control its own chakra (as showed by the "tailed" forms that Naruto assumes, in which Naruto fights while the Kyuubi controls a shield of chakra around him).
In the article, it states that Naruto can seemingly do his shadow clone jutsu without limit. I added that it also overrides its special consequence which is dividing up the orginal user's chakra supply. Instead, Naruto gradually wears down his chakra supply instead of dividing it up. I know some might say this is due to his huge supply of chakra, but math is math. One clone means he gives up half his chakra, four means 3/4 and so on and so forth.Benpercent 00:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Naruto can do that, not the creature itself. The power Naruto controls is not something the beast can do on its own. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Is he really able to? Or is it just something Naruto can call at will? Because when you look back at episode 133 (or whatever manga chapter the fight was), you'll notice that Naruto is an inch away from dying when the Kyuubi put the shell around him. I doubt he was even consious when it started happening, and while the chakra was engulfing him, he seems to be trying to resist it. So wouldn't it be safe to assume that Naruto can call up the chakra and the Kyuubi controls it?Benpercent 01:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No. The fox's mind is stuck behind the seal. Only its chakra can escape. That chakra is controlled by Naruto, regardless of how much it corrupts his personality. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification.Benpercent 01:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yo, i hear that the demon fox knows madara uchiha. Im thinking that madara uchiha looked for help from the fox so that he could kill his demon father Tenghu (since tenghu married a hyuuga and created a son called madara uchiha and therefore created the sharinghan so the tenghu could obtain the sharinghan power and take over madara's power). The fox was amazed by madara Uchiha so lent him his chakra. Then madara killed tenghu and sealed him away by using ameterasu, tsukiyomi and the other mangekyou jutsu, and therefore only being able to be unsealed by these jutsu. This is the history of Uchiha, being originated from the demon tenghu. This secret is only known to uchiha, Itachi finds out. Weilds the mangekyou sharinghan and tells his brother how to obtain it so there will be 3 mangekyou sharinghan holders. Therefore Itachi needs the kyuubis power and joins akatsuki to obtain it, then all together bing able to free tenghu and achieves world domination. That is my theory!

Isonade

I keep trying to Edit the Sanbi's information. it is NOT a turtle. Any search through japanese legend shows this pretty clearly. Masashi Kishimoto's depiction of the 9-tailed beasts is not 100% true to the legends but nonetheless draws on them. His Nekomata is depicted as a being of fire, but the Nekomata of Legend is a being of darkness with wings and a third eye, but it is nonetheless a cat demon. isonade is a shark demon despite its odd appearance. Orochi is a snake, not a dragon, and Raiju is a weasel. I admit I'm new to editing articles, but I can't stand by with these innaccurate assumptions.

It does not matter what the real legend is. This is about the show. In the show, the thing is a giant turtle. Kishimoto is not obligated to perfectly conform to the legends. You're adding misinformation by misstating what the creatures are. Stop. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because it looks like a turtle does not mean it is one, the only FACTUAL information is what is stated in legend. It has never been stated that the sanbi is a turtle. You can believe in something that's not fact all you want. I've also commented on the differences between the legend and what kishimoto has done. It's fine if you don't like it, but the current information is incorrect. I can back up my additions with fact and outside articles. And I'd like to note, naruto is not a SHOW. it is a manga that was adapted into an anime. Sanbi has appeared in the MANGA. not the SHOW. yeah, it's petty to point that out but so is deleting facts.

Wrong, the only factual information is what appears in Kishimoto's work. In Kishimoto's work, it is quite obviously a giant turtle. It does not matter if the legend is different. He does not need to follow the legend. Your "facts" are nothing of the sort. They're your opinion based on legends on which the tailed beasts are based. Learn the difference. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

the Nekomata of Legend is a being of darkness with wings and a third eye WHAT?! Seriously where do you kids GET this stuff? Kotengu 10:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

He's right, It looks like a turtle, the majority of people who've seen it call it a turtle, and Kishimoto has never contradicted that. Not many of us spend time reading Japanese legends. We'd rather have the Sanbi called a turtle, and the Nibi a demon cat, not a three-eyed Nekomata whatever it is.... Pstanton 04:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The sanbi in Naruto is a turtle. Sharks don't have shells, nor do they have armored underbellies. Sure the demons up untill Sanbi were playing close to legend, but it's still Kishimoto's work. It look likes a turtle, therfore it is. User:Tenshou

Isonade and Nekomata

I believe you mean THEY'RE instead of Their. Once again I must point out that no one has called it a turtle in the manga. Kishimoto has followed the legend more than you know. If you actually bother to do the research, look at Kisame. He himself is inspired by the Isonade, and Orochimaru, who was also a legendary character, was inspired in part by the Orochi of legend. Shukaku was known to be a god of sand. Kishimoto is using the legends to write his manga, and I have no doubts that they will be further involved in Naruto.

I've added information on Nekomata reffering to its legendary origins. This shouldn't conflict with big-headedness as it doesn't detract from the information depicted in the show.

When it's out of place it does, and don't insult my spelling mistake (which I corrected) just because you're wrong. Like you've said, Kishimoto is using the legends to write the characters. This does not mean he's copying them verbatum. Also, you can make comparisons in the Nekomata article. That's what it's for. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe you mean MEAN instead of Bean. There, you seem to have deserved that. Additionally, Tobi says in chapter 317 that the Sanbi looks like a turtle. Is that not good enough? ~SnapperT o 05:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

There's NO reason to outright delete information that contributes to the overall information about the character or the creature, and I don't know if it's some kind of error or if someone is deleting my posts in the talk section, but if it is someone then it's rude and has to stop. Despite the dissagreement I haven't deleted anyone's posts or information. You're free to believe that you know everything on the topic, which you must if you're so adamant about your "facts"; but the fact is, it IS important information as the legends are what inspired the entire manga. From Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru to the Bijuu. People who want to find out more about the origins of the manga are better off if the information is more readily available.

See? You've corrected your mistake, too. As a final note, you need to remember that this is not an article about the legends on which these characters are based. This is an article about the characters. It does not matter if a legend happens to differ, because that difference does not pertain to the characters. Naruto takes place in its own universe. Facts don't have to match up with ours. You want to talk about the legends, do so on their pages. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm TRYING to give information on what it's based on. It does pertain to the manga, it's very important. That's like taking information on Journey to the west out of a Saiyuki or Dragonball article. No, it doesn't follow the legend precicely, but it is completely based off of it. It's important to know where the information comes from. I'm not saying that the information from the legends is the ONLY information, and yes, the pages of those legendary characters is the place to put ALL of the information, but it's equally important to note that these legends are where the inspiration comes from. The information I corrected or added was helpful, and I'll stand by that. If someone is doing research on Naruto and have decided to come to Wiki for it, I think they should get more than just one side of the story.

It's not part of the story. Do you have some sort of source comfirming that the writer is doing anything more than losely basing his characters on the legends? No is the answer to that. The information you added wasn't helpful because you keep contradicting the source material. A small trivia section noting the differences would be fine, but this is not what you've been doing. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to know where I contradicted the source material. If you've been paying attention, I started out my Nekomata post several lines down with *In Japanese legend, the nekomata* etc. etc. I noted where Kishimoto got his inspiration for the characters. You can't contradict this.

You contradicted for the Isonade, which clearly isn't the least bit related to this three-tailed beast. I added a properly formatted comparison. Your comparison is barely that, because you merely describe the legendary cat. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, just because Kishimoto takes INSPIRATION for the bijuu from Japanese legends doesn't mean he's inserting japanese legends into Naruto, the comparison between Bijuu and the japanese legendary figures seems to belong in a trivia section. In the series the Bijuu are simply what they appear to be, not some esoteric mythic figures understood by only a handful. Pstanton 04:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

"Host"?

Why exactly are we using "host" in place of Jinchuriki again? There's no real good translation of it, so it's probably best to keep it in Japanese until we get some kind of official thing. The Splendiferous Gegiford 19:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It was one of the last (if not the last) romanized words left throughout the articles, so it seemed like a good idea to just replace it and get rid of romanizations entirely. I personally prefer using an English word instead of "jinchuriki", though I'm not really sure that "host" is the best substitute for it. ~SnapperT o 20:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Really, I think using "Jinchūriki" is the only good way to go. It has no real English translation, so using "host" isn't really correct. The Splendiferous Gegiford 20:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

They had to have used some sort of loan term in the dub by now. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The word "Jinchūriki" doesn't appear in the series until Part 2. The Splendiferous Gegiford 00:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

That I'm aware of, but since we've seen two in the dub thus far, they had to ahve used a single term to describe them, however informal. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Use "power of human sacrifice". =-) --70.72.50.20 02:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Removal of names

Who removed the names of the other demons. Someone please put them back, even if they are only speculative.

They were deleted because they're speculative, so they're not going back. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because they are speculative doesn't mean that they should be deleted does it? I mean, the only one that we know of that doesn't follow the myths is the 3-tail. I will admit that they might be different, but it is still information to people who might be new to the series. Give them something to think about.

The "myths" are fake. Read the section below. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

RE: Japanese "Legends": Read This First

Before you attempt to add things to this page about supposed Japanese myths you read about on an anime messageboard, please read this: http://community.livejournal.com/yokaimonsters/57605.html I am a Japanese folklore enthusiast who can read the language, and I can tell you there is no "Legend of the Tailed Beasts" anywhere outside of Naruto fan-lore. Isonade does not have three tails, Ho(u)ko(u) has no tail at all, Raiju(u) has two or three tails at most, and "So(u)ko(u)" doesn't even exist. The nekomata does not have three eyes, wings, or any of that nonsense, and the Orochi can be described as both a snake and a dragon. Kotengu 19:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Demons?

Do demons even exist in Japanese folklore? Demon usually inquires something evil while some of these creature like the nine tailed fox are seen as elegant and beautiful creatures in japanese mythology. Besides demon has more to do with christianity and depictions of fallen angels than it does with japanese mythology. Yamato no orochi can be considered evil but to match the culture this stuff is coming from I think "demon" needs to be removed from where ever its used in the article. Tailed Beast (biju) is what we should stick with. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.56.182 (talk • contribs).

That's interesting, every classical image I've seen of a nine-tailed fox looks much more grotesque and scary than "elegant and beautiful". Like this nice creature here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Prince_Hanzoku_terrorised_by_a_nine-_tailed_fox.jpg

Even Japanese dragons (which were usually much nicer to humans than wicked beasts like Tamamo-no-Mae) aren't traditionally portrayed as "beautiful" when in their true form - I think your Western bias is showing in your assumptian that "good" creatures are always "elegant and beautiful" and evil creatures are always ugly.

"Demon" is also frequently used to refer to creatures from non-Christian religions; read the nice long well-referenced article on it if you like. It's true though that it's too often used in anime to translate yōkai when "monster" is probably a better choice. Kotengu 19:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Possible Subconscious Trait

I noticed that Naruto's orange clothe is the same as The Nine-tail Demon Fox's skin and Gaara's clothes are kind of monkish like the One-Tailed Shukaku before it became the well you know the One-Tailed Shukaku, so does that mean that the Tailed Beasts could have some subconscious along with physical traits. Tell me if you think we should add this. – Strike Chaos 04:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, we do already note personality traits. That's a bit too much of a guess, though. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It has physical characteristics not personality traits. Get it straight besides I'm conviced that they have subsubconscious traits too. – Strike Chaos 20:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It does on their character pages. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Kyubi Shield

It seems that when Kyubi forms his Chakra shield around Naruto, it is much higher then the Boiling point of Water. It actully caused the water he was standing on to evaporate at the first contact, that should be mentioned due to it showing that the Chakra shield is just as hot on the outside as it is on the inside, where it burns Naruto.

It's not hot in and of itself in that state, it only becomes so when initially forming. You'll notice the water doesn't boil afterwards. Also, it's significantly less strenuous on Naruto than it is on The things outside the shield. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Where'd the info go!?

Suddenly there's nothing on 'supposed' tailed beasts, only on the known ones! Shouldn't there be a small theory section that might list a few possbilities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.169.2 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 1 January 2007

The "theories" are completely groundless as they are based on made-up folklore which comes neither from Naruto canon nor from real Japanese mythology. If you want to add details about them, I started a small article on the Legend of the Tailed Beasts fakelore for exactly that purpose. Kotengu 小天狗 01:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

So every single theory was unfounded? I could understand if you had eliminated those which contradicted Japanese mythology, but to go and delete all of them? Were the theories about Orochi and Suzaku completely unfounded too? And also, "waging war?" I wouldn't call it that. I'd call it vindictive rudeness. Plus, is it really necessary to create an article on people making mistakes too?

Yes, they were. That was simply a well-done fanfic. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose that's alright then. Except for the fact that Orochi could be the eighth beast, given Orochiamaru's connection with serpents. And I am aware that they were purely speculative, but surely that is allowed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.65.13.75 (talk) 21:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

Only if it has merit and even then only to a small degree. The legends are too different to guess. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

i'm kinda split between weither or not i agree with the decision, i mean on one part i think its good to keep only the known facts..

but on the other hand, i feel like it was fun to read what other people were speculating

ya'll the boss's thoAncientanubis 02:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Sanbi

If the sanbi is a genbu than 3 others should be seiryuu suzaku and byakko?

Nekomata

Ok this Someguy is getting on my nerves right now.

The Nekomata section contains three pieces of speculation:

Fire-breathing Nibi was breathing something, but it does not look like any other fire depicted in the manga and it was never referred to as fire in the manga. Hence, to call it fire is completely unfounded.

Flaming Same deal here.

"What else can it be" proves absolutely nothing. You can't say "it doesn't look like wind, nor water, nor earth, nor lightning, so it must be fire". It isn't any more valid than "it doesn't look like wind, nor fire, nor earth, nor lightning, so it must be water". I got a private message that said how Hidan sait it was hot; lightning is pretty hot as well and so can water be. The thing that Nekomata is made of could be soda pop for all we know.

Doesn't seem to exhibit the same abilities as the legendary creature "doesn't seem" is speculation in its own right. Plus, it does seem to exhibit the same abilities (Necromancy). Here's how:

http://devilbox.dead.org/n/311-320/312/Naruto_v35_ch312_p15.png "you are the only one left" This page shows that there were more people at the place, and Akatsuki had met them.

http://devilbox.dead.org/n/311-320/313/Naruto_v35_ch313_p03.png "I lured you here" This page shows that Yugito was in some way controlling those people that Akatsuki had to go through.

http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/262/v29_ch262_11.png "The treatment that a jinchuuriki recieved is pretty much the same in all villages" http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/266/v30_ch266_14.png "Not one person in [two other jinchuurikis] respective villages, actually, raised even a finger to help them" These two pages show that nobody would willingly step up to Akatsuki to help Yugito.

So: Someone was helping Yugito. They were not doing it of their free will. Yugito could control their actions to some extent. Either Yugito has a way of puppeteering live people, or she can control dead people who can't say no. Given that Nekomata of legend is said to be able to "make the dead dance like puppets", the former would seem a lot more likely. So don't say it seems like she doesn't have any of Nekomata's abilities in legend.

Now, I'm not even saying you should put this up in the article. I'm saying you should stop adding the speculation back. Now, as I said in the edit message before, refute first and then revert. Right now Someguy is just being childish and looks like he doesn't want anyone to touch his precious article. I am merely removing speculation. If you can find any support for the stuff you keep adding in, then please share. Otherwise, do nothing.

For the record, most of what you are talking about is barely confirmable at all. One manga panel with a few shadows in the background does not prove these accusations you are making. Hidan clearly states "Cat didn't catch my tongue, but it nearly roasted my ass!" in the manga, which is more than enough evidence that the thing has fire abilities. Have you looked at the thing? That isn't "death element" or whatever you keep saying it is. That is quite obviously fire. Also, Someguy pulls far more weight in discussion than some punk trolling anon removing information, so I am siding against you and will revert the living daylights out of your edits. Treima 01:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

When you actually pull some proof that the cat is breathing anything other than fire, your point will have meaning. As it stands, I'm reverting you because your point of view is OR. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Aah! The comment above mine that I was responding to was unsigned and made by an anon. I am not arguing with myself over here, I'm siding with the article's current form, so I am changing your indentation from two colons to one, so it is more apparent that you aren't responding to me. Treima 01:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Easily corrected. To be clear, I was responding to the anon. Habit makes me indent a level ahead. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I have looked at the thing, it doesn't resemble any other fire in the manga and there are many things that are capable of roasting. Besides, that particular translation was being very liberal, the word "roasting" does not appear in the Japanese text. The original text said Nekomata "had a cat-tongue", which is used in Japanese for someone who has had hot food. I don't know what shadows you are talking about but the pages I linked are pretty straight forward. Someone helped her, but they wouldn't do so of their free will. Yugito controlled them. Simple as that. I am not "some punk trolling anon removing information", I am Grrblt and a moderator at the largest Naruto forums in existance (a job I was given for extensive knowledge about the manga), I have done heavy wiki editing in the past, and I am removing misinformation. I do not need to prove that it isn't fire, you need to prove that it is. You can't just say it's fire and then expect it to stay that way until someone disproves you. Grrblt 01:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I can prove it. It burns. Do you not listen? You're the one going off on some tangent about her controlling non-existent dead people and breating some sort of necro fire. It is quite obviously flame. You're merely being stubborn about it to make your own original research seem more valid. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Big titles prove nothing here, because anyone can lie about their status, so that's irrelevant. If it looks like fire, burns like fire and the general consensus is that it is fire, then it is fire. Treima 01:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ice burns. Acid burns. KN4 burns. You have proved nothing. It doesn't look like fire. Show me one piece of fire that looks like Nekomata. Grrblt 01:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Show us why this fire is so different that it can't possibly be considered such. Don't go off on some rant about unrelated liquids and solids burning (which is entirely different burning, by the way), show us why this fire is supposedly not fire. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Burden of proof is not on us. It has been listed as fire since forever, Mr. Moderator Man, so why now do you bring up what you believe to be an inconsistency? Treima 01:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hidan never specified what kind of burning it was, did he? I told you already, I do not need to show you why it isn't fire. You need to show me why it is, something you have not. Burden of proof is not on me, because I am not the one making the claim here. You are. I don't care how long it has been listed, that doesn't make it any more true. Here is a pic of fire http://devilbox.dead.org/n/251-260/260/v29_ch260_pg03.png Notice that it looks nothing like Nekomata. Absolutely nothing at all. Grrblt 01:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Obviously the distinction between "ball of fire" and simple fire is lost on you. The burden of proof doesn't lie on us, because we have our proof. Fire = hot. Hidan notes this. You can see the smoke on the following page. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

We're the ones making the claim? Thousands of people have seen this page. None have brought up that it might not be fire, save you. Tell us, what exactly does your clairvoyant perception see that the others that put their time into making this wiki better have missed since then? Keeping in mind that Kishimoto-sensei has taken great liberties with the mythological beasts of Japan as they are presented in his manga, exactly what the heck do you believe it to be, oh swami? Treima 01:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you. Perhaps not only you two, but still you. Someguy, your proof is worth absolutely nothing. Hidan does not say it is hot, he makes a pun that Nekomata has eaten hot food. Acid burns and gives off smoke as well. Wow I just proved it breathed acid! Not. Just like you haven't proven it's fire. Like I've said before, Nekomata is associated with death. It was made of some form of manifestation of death. And you still haven't explained why those guys were helping Yugito, that alone is a very strong hint that Naruto-Nekomata is in fact similar to Legend-Nekomata. Grrblt 01:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe she's like Naruto and has friends. That ever occur to you? – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Reindent to make a point. I suppose you won't stop unless someone pushes the obvious in your face.

Amaterasu fire — While I realize this is special fire, bear with me. Look at the fire. Notice how it concentrates at the location of the fire but spits up small pieces of flame? Should I be more condescending and assume you've never seen a fire? Of course not. You've seen fire. You know what it looks like.
Now look at the Nekomata. *gasp* It's doing the same thing. As I understand it, this is because it is on fire, and thus those small whiffs of flame coming off it it are just that: flame. Maybe you'd care to give a substance that exactly mimcs that?
Wait, there's more. See the Nekomata breathing fire? See itachi doing the same? My god, they look the same.

Get it yet? You're proposing ridiculous notions to make your theory more valid. That simply won't fly. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, you know what? I was wrong on the breathing fire. But that only solidifies that I was right about the other stuff. Shukaku was made of sand and shot balls of wind. Nekomata breathes fire but clearly is made from something else. Check your own pictures, it does not resemble Amaterasu in any way except that it has some stuff flying out of it. Look at the actual Nekomata and find any fire that looks like that. You can't, because fire doesn't look like that. The only thing that looks anything like that is Sai's ink.

No, Yugito is not like Naruto and she did not have friends. She is not the main hero, she is not the one changing destiny etc. She is a regular jinchuuriki that, according to what we've been told, was despised and feared by her whole village. If you want to know what a regular jinchuuriki is like, look at Gaara in the chuunin exams. And no one would have raised a finger to save him. Grrblt 07:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll cover your comments in order, since you clearly didn't get the jist of mine. I note specifically that Amaterasu's fire is special fire. It is, after all, as hot as the sun. However, it is still fire and acts as such. Nekomata's fire is also still fire and acts as such. The underlying principals are the same, you just refuse to see this. Do you deny that it doesn't act like fire? Do you insist that merely because of the liberties taken by the artist to portray a fire-elemental type monster that it simply can't be that?

Now, for Yugito. I'll put this bluntly. Show us some fucking proof. Not hearsay and conjecture based on Deidara's comments, because they only went to two villages before hand and likely know nothing about the rest. Yugito, like Naruto, can easily be an exception. You have no way of disproving this possibility, and therefore your argument is void. Gaara is the standard for how they are treated, not the model.

I'll close now. I have proven to you that the Nekomata is both able to breathe fire and consists of a substance that acts like fire. All you have done is gone on some non-sequitor about how Shukaku uses wind attacks and how the fire looks like Sai's ink, which I shouldn't even have to tell you is stupid. Shukaku has lungs, of course it can use wind. Anyone with lungs can (with practice). as for the ink, it's a black and white manga. Of course they'll look similar. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Tell me, exactly what does a "manifestation of death" look like and do to people? Since when has any Japanese story had "manifestation of death" look like a big smoking fireball? Your claim is less valid than ours, because there are precedents to fireballs, but none to "manifestation of death". And the reason for the Land of Lightning opposing Akatsuki members trying to make off with their weapons of war is self-evident, the same if you had a gun in your house and I came trouncing in to steal it. Treima 02:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Did you even read the quotes by Deidara and Chiyo? Other villages don't care about saving their jinchuuriki. In fact, if you read on in Deidara's quote, he says on the next page that people even cheered Akatsuki on. If you really haven't understood what this manifestation of death looks like then there must be something wrong with your eyes because I have written it several times here. Here, look Grrblt 07:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I dont really care to weigh in on the "death versus fire" aspect of this argument, though after reading it all and examining the evidence I'll concur as you have, that the 2-tails is breathing fire. As for what it is made up of...im inclined to believe it's simply fire that kishi has taken some artistic liscense in portraying....however, this is'nt to say that it IS such, and I believe any evidence supporting the idea is as frail as the evidence given to the contrary. As things stand now it should be omitted from the article until we know more, readers can draw their own conclusions for now. As for Yugito, simply because most Jinchuuriki lead solitary lives does'nt mean they all do. That fact that this story revolves around naruto is not evidence that he is the only one who could break the "destiny" of jinchuuriki. I'd even argue that in her becoming a ninja at all, not to mention her calm attitude in battle and desire to battle in an isolated location, set her apart somewhat. Regardless, any conclusions you have come to regarding the 2-tail's other abilities based simply upon the "deathly" nature of her "flames" is OR and has no place in the article...we dont know what the thing is made up of, and even if we did thats not grounds for predicting any of its other abilities...because as its been stated already, kishi has a history of taking quite a bit of liberty in his interpretation of traditional folklore--Master Shan 01:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, um, a flame has been a symbol of death or ghosts in Japanese folklore almost forever. Fire is constantly in flux, and the ghost's nature is supposed to be flux. Just look at Inuyasha, or hell, look at actual Japanese folklore - the ghost's are CLOSELY associated with fire.

So yes, A manifestation of death would have a lot to do with fire, and yes, the Nekomata breathes fire. No matter how much of a Naruto-fan you are, you should actually look into Japanese folklore sometime.74.140.118.84 22:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

In other words, the Nekomata is composed of and/or covered in Will O' Wisps, right? In that case, it is covered in fire. That is significantly more specific and is a far more understandable concept than "Energy of the dead." Because fire is, quite frankly, fire, whereas paranormal energy can manifest itself in flames, gasses, lights, shadows, ectoplasm, illusions, and essentially any other way imaginable. That's like saying that Naruto's mass is composed of matter. If it's covered in flames, than there is no question: it is covered in flames. This was summarized a long time ago: If it looks like fire, it burns like fire, and it has flames coming out of it, it is fire unless directly stated not to be. You Can't See Me! 08:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me?

I don't think I see "slanted eyes" on Yugito. Can someone give me a pic that shows the eyes better than in the picure we have here. i would but my computer won't let me download anything or load anything up from saved files.Sam ov the blue sand 02:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What no answers? And this is why I stay on the talk pages, to help people with their problems unlike you guys.Sam ov the blue sand 22:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, there was a picture there. As for no one helping you - you DO know that you could just type "Yugito Naruto" into google images and you would get the picture almost immediately, right?74.140.118.84 23:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Smells like Original Research to me

Can someone please explain the basis for this obvious piece of conjecture:

...and that some of the Uchiha can forcefully suppress the demon fox's chakra, as was illustrated by Sasuke...

There is no evidence for this other then the manifestation disappearing and what we think the Kyuubi meant in his conversation with Sasuke. As we all know, fansub/scanlation translations are not really all that accurate, so I hope that whomever made this conjecture double checked with some other Japanese to be sure the translation was correct and no meaning/tone was lost in said translation. The real evidence which needs to be observed is whether the Kyuubi's chakra is no longer available for Naruto to draw upon. Since Naruto was not engaging in battle, the extent to which this is true is not known. Furthermore, if this ability really did exist, then why didn't the Uchiha clan use it to stop the Kyuubi from attacking the village? Why didn't Itachi use it when confronting Naruto in a form where Naruto was clearly drawing on the Kyuubi chakra? Lastly Yamato clearly states that the only person in Konoha who ever had the ability to suppress the Bijuu inside the sacrifice was Shodai Hokage (remember that the only reason Yamato can is because he is a partial clone of Shodai Hokage). I think a speculative statement like the one blockquoted should be removed as a violation of WP:OR and WP:NOT (not a crystal ball) until there is some demonstrable proof that Sasuke has actually crippled the Kyuubi and prevented Naruto from drawing upon the Kyuubi chakra. --130.127.121.188 00:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

That whole thing is OR. Just saying. One, "suppress" doesn't mean "seal." One's temporary, the other's not. This is the fundamental flaw in your speech. He does suppress it, because he prevents Naruto from accessing it at that point in time only. The statement is perfectly accurate. You've misunderstood the passage. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Dude if you're that good at Wikipedia, create an acount, it's free.Sam ov the blue sand 22:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering, does it go out and say that suppressing the chakra was an Uchiha ability, or just another sealing ability? Lascoden 05:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Probable source of fakelore "Legend of Tailed Beasts"

Inuyasha

I'm serious, the whole "3 eyed, winged Nekomata" is Kirara from Inuyasha.

In fact, they would probably have tried to say that the Kyuubi's main power was turning into a balloon if they thought they could get away from it.74.140.118.84 23:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Kyuubi

Sasuke says that this is the demon fox's name in the first scene in the 'part 2' naruto series. Should we note it? (MJW)

Speculations on Jinchurikii

Okay, first of all - there is no legend of the Tailed Beasts. This is something we need to put at the top of the page.

Second (and third) of all - it's Hachibi. HACHIBI! Not Habachi, and the Orochi is an 8-headed snake only - NOT an 8-tailed snake. At the very least, the most common representation is simply a hydra-like creature - I've found nothing that claims it has 8-tails, and many that claim it only has 1.

Fourth of all - AKATSUKI MEMBERS ARE NOT JINCHURIKII! They would have no reason to be working for a group that is going to kill them - all of them seem quite averse to death, actually, and if it was a group for Jinchurikii, then Naruto, Gaara, and Yugito would have been INVITED.

Fifth of all - MANY CHARACTERS IN THE ANIME HAVE ANIMAL CHARACTERISTICS. That doesn't mean they are Jinchurikii, it means they are ninjas. We've had a spider guy, but I don't see anyone trying to claim that there is a 4-tailed Demon Spider.

Lastly - We really should remove all the old headers in the discussion that are totally obsolete - especially the ones that aren't even discussion, merely "give me pictures!" or "I think Madara Uchiha is a furry that turns out to be Dumbledore's son!"74.140.118.84 05:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

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