Talk:Tai chi chuan/Archive 3

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Contents 1 List of Wikipedians by martial art add yourself! 2 New Messages at Bottom of Page, Please 3 Article needs a lot more emphasis on Chi, Taoism and please remove the boring Lineage diagram. 4 Title of article 5 Double redirects 6 Chi and naming 7 Pinyin all over the place 8 T'ai Chi and Diabetes 9 Chi Kung 10 External links abuse 11 Zhaobao style 12 See Also 13 TaiChi Website 14 Merge from Taiji 15 Buddhist Meditation 16 ChineseText template 17 "Secrets" 18 GA 19 Requested move 19.1 Survey 19.2 Discussion

List of Wikipedians by martial art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

New Messages at Bottom of Page, Please

Article needs a lot more emphasis on Chi, Taoism and please remove the boring Lineage diagram.

Firestar - This article is weighted completely wrongly.

Taoism - As I said before there is hardly any mention at all of Taoism, in fact this should be right at the top of the page. Taoism is quite simply the basis of T'ai Chi, you have the yin-yang diagram so why isn't there more mention of it? Okay there is some discussion of yin and yang principles but you know that, I know it, the average person however will not make the connections with Taoism and the other related fields of Taoist study.

Chi - Secondly you have hardly mentioned the fact that T'ai Chi is not a physical form of exercise but is more closely related to Chi Gung. What about the micro-cosmic energy circulation and energy meridians and energy centres? T'ai Chi is not based upon physics or western science, I think you have confused it with aerobics! To talk about T'ai Chi without mentioning Chi is absurd. Just sticking a link in is not enough, this needs much more in depth discussion. Okay T'ai Chi is related to Martial Arts that much is obvious but you are giving completely the wrong impression here, westerners will think it's Karate.

Softness and Internal principles - T'ai Chi is a soft style and is not about fighting but about learning the skills to avoid fighting. Where are the discussions about internal style principles? Nothing! There is no mention of the principles of softness with regard to going with the flow of energy and yielding as opposed to the hard style principle of blocking force, this is the key to softness not how relaxed the muscles are altho of course this is also important from the standpoint of energy flow.

Lineage - This lineage diagram is absolute nonsense. Anyone with even a basic understanding of Taoist philosophy will know that lineage is not a Taoist concept but derives from Confucian ancestor worship. T'ai Chi masters are not ranked according to pieces of paper or even fighting skills but in their knowledge of Taoism and it's practical application as a teaching method of the way (Tao). In fact true Taoists would never dream of comparing themselves with others or ranking styles according to which is best. Why have this ridiculous lineage diagram which no one at all will be interested in? it is redundant. It is also extremely boring, please remove it at once.

Pre and Post Revolution - There needs to be some mention of the fact that many Taoists were exiled or forbidden to practise their T'ai Chi and related studies with the advent of Communism. Many Taoist masters had to go overseas and take their T'ai Chi to other countries. Have you seen 'Pushing Hands' by Ang Lee? Maybe you should. The point has to be made that Taoism and T'ai Chi practise was actively suppressed and that many documents and lineages not to mention people were destroyed so no accurate history of T'ai Chi can be compiled. Also T'ai Chi was often kept secret and not taught to the public so just looking at public records of those styles that have popularized themselves is not particularly relevant.

Do you do T'ai Chi Firestar? Let me guess, you do Yang style T'ai Chi. This article is far too heavily weighted towards Yang style and their attempts to promote their style through documentation and lineage. Get a life guys, no one is interested in this. Please can you stop censoring this article and find something better to do with your life? As for the rest of you let's hear something more interesting about Chi energy and Taoist philosophy and enough talk about redundant lineage documents. --Chuangzu 18:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Chuangzu, I am very glad you bring up these subjects and the criticism is very useful. May I suggest, since you have knowledge on these subjects, that you write an article on each one of these subjects? Wikipedia exists by the grace of the contributors that have knowledge and want to share it. It may mean that this present article "Tai Chi Chuan" will have to be re-edited in some (major) fashion. So be it. If you bring in your knowledge others will most likely find and make the connections with other subjects and the quality and scope of the whole will increase. However, I implore you to respect the work others have done already. Their work may be periferal to your contribution or may have connections to it, but please let's respect each others work. I am looking forward to you articles. --JohJak2 21:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Chuangzu, I'm sorry that you are disappointed with the article, although your comments make me wonder if you've even read it. Let's address them point by point, shall we?

• Taoism - As I said before there is hardly any mention at all of Taoism...

Well, we have: T'ai Chi Ch'uan is seen by many of its schools as a variety of Taoism, and it does seemingly incorporate many Taoist principles into its practice (see below). and: "Various people have offered different explanations for the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Some have said: 'In terms of self-cultivation, one must train from a state of movement towards a state of stillness. T'ai Chi comes about through the balance of yin and yang. In terms of the art of attack and defense then, in the context of the changes of full and empty, one is constantly internally latent, not outwardly expressive, as if the yin and yang of T'ai Chi have not yet divided apart.' Others say: 'Every movement of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is based on circles, just like the shape of a T'ai Chi symbol. Therefore, it is called T'ai Chi Ch'uan.' Both explanations are quite reasonable, especially the second, which is more complete." and: As the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan is held to be derived from the T'ai Chi symbol, the taijitu or t'ai chi t'u (太極圖, pinyin tàijítú), commonly known in the West as the "yin-yang" diagram, T'ai Chi Ch'uan techniques are said therefore to physically and energetically balance yin (receptive) and yang (active) principles: "From ultimate softness comes ultimate hardness." and: Lao Tzu provided the archetype for this in the Tao Te Ching when he wrote, "The soft and the pliable will defeat the hard and strong." and: When tracing T'ai Chi Ch'uan's formative influences to Taoist and Buddhist monasteries, one has little more to go on than legendary tales from a modern historical perspective, but T'ai Chi Ch'uan's practical connection to and dependence upon the theories of Sung dynasty Neo-Confucianism (a conscious synthesis of Taoist, Buddhist and Confucian traditions, esp. the teachings of Mencius) is readily apparent to its practitioners., so you see we have quite a few mentions of and links to Taoism. Not everyone agrees that T'ai Chi is exclusively Taoist, however, the way it is taught by the Chinese T'ai Chi families also incorporates other traditions, such as Confucian didacticism and Buddhist pacific values, "kind-heartedness". Also, this is an article about T'ai Chi, not Taoism (even though we talk in several places how T'ai Chi depends on Taoist principles). If people want more about Taoism, they can always go to our Taoism article.

• Chi - Secondly you have hardly mentioned the fact that T'ai Chi is not a physical form of exercise but is more closely related to Chi Gung...

There is: The slow, repetitive work involved in that process is said to gently increase and open the internal circulation (breath, body heat, blood, lymph, peristalsis, etc.). Over time, proponents say, this enhancement becomes a lasting effect, a direct reversal of the constricting physical effects of stress on the human body and: Breathing exercises; nei kung (內功 nèigōng) or, more commonly, qigong or ch'i kung (氣功 qìgōng) to develop qi or ch'i (氣 qì) or "breath energy" in coordination with physical movement and post standing or combinations of the two. These were formerly taught only to disciples as a separate, complementary training system. In the last 50 years they have become more well known to the general public. That seems pretty clear to me. Not every T'ai Chi school has its own qigong, some add outside systems, others don't do qigong at all. Again, if people want more about qigong, they are directed to qigong.

• Softness and Internal principles - T'ai Chi is a soft style and is not about fighting but about learning the skills to avoid fighting. Where are the discussions about internal style principles? Nothing!...

Again, I'm wondering if you've even read the article, as there is: T'ai Chi Ch'uan is considered a soft style martial art, an art applied with as complete a relaxation or "softness" in the musculature as possible, to distinguish its theory and application from that of the hard martial art styles which use a degree of tension in the muscles. and: T'ai Chi Ch'uan as physical training is characterized by its requirement for the use of leverage through the joints based on coordination in relaxation rather than muscular tension in order to neutralize or initiate physical attacks. and the focus meditation and subsequent calmness cultivated by the meditative aspect of T'ai Chi is seen as necessary to maintain optimum health (in the sense of effectively maintaining stress relief or homeostasis) and in order to use it as a soft style martial art. and: a slow sequence of movements which emphasise a straight spine, relaxed breathing and a natural range of motion; the second being different styles of pushing hands or t'ui shou (推手) for training "stickiness" and sensitivity in the reflexes through various motions from the forms in concert with a training partner in order to learn leverage, timing, coordination and positioning when interacting with another. Pushing hands is seen as necessary not only for training the self-defense skills of a soft style such as T'ai Chi by demonstrating the forms' movement principles experientially, but also it is said to improve upon the level of conditioning provided by practice of the solo forms by increasing the workload on students while they practise those movement principles. and: In a fight, if one uses hardness to resist violent force then both sides are certain to be injured, at least to some degree. Such injury, according to T'ai Chi theory, is a natural consequence of meeting brute force with brute force. The collision of two like forces, yang with yang, is known as "double-weighted" in T'ai Chi terminology. Instead, students are taught not to fight or resist an incoming force, but to meet it in softness and "stick" to it, following its motion while remaining in physical contact until the incoming force of attack exhausts itself or can be safely redirected, the result of meeting yang with yin. Done correctly, achieving this yin/yang or yang/yin balance in combat (and, by extension, other areas of one's life) is known as being "single-weighted" and is a primary goal of T'ai Chi Ch'uan training. and: T'ai Chi's martial aspect relies on sensitivity to the opponent's movements and centre of gravity dictating appropriate responses. Effectively affecting or "capturing" the opponent's centre of gravity immediately upon contact is trained as the primary goal of the martial T'ai Chi student, and from there all other technique can follow with seeming effortlessness. The alert calmness required to achieve the necessary sensitivity is acquired over thousands of hours of first yin (slow, repetitive, meditative, low impact) and then later adding yang ("realistic," active, fast, high impact) martial training; forms, pushing hands and sparring. So you see that not only do we mention soft style principles many times, in this and in the pushing hands article, we explain them.

• Lineage - This lineage diagram is absolute nonsense...

Actually, I didn't put it in the article originally (so it is interesting to at least one other editor), but I have added some names to it over the last year or so. Its content is very well documented from different sources and covers successive generations of the primary families that have been recognised as representative of T'ai Chi by 3 successive Chinese govts. and the overwhelming majority of the Chinese martial arts community. The only change to it I would make now would be to expand it, as we are missing too many Chen family members. The teacher-disciple relationship has been normative in traditional Chinese education for thousands of years. Your assertion that no one will be interested in it is unjustified. I'm sorry that your school isn't on there, but there seems to be no independent documentation of your style's lineage in the public domain.

• Pre and Post Revolution - There needs to be some mention of the fact that many Taoists were exiled or forbidden to practise their T'ai Chi and related studies with the advent of Communism...

And again, we plainly comment on that with: ...because many of the family T'ai Chi Ch'uan teachers had either moved out of China or had been forced to stop teaching after the Communist regime was established in 1949.... Also, members of the Wu family, the Yang family and the martial arts documentation of the Kuomintang and Jing Wu Men whom they worked with moved to Hong Kong and Taiwan in 1949. As well, documents of Wu Yu-hsiang's lineage and the Qing dynasty military records in the Forbidden City (written in Manchu) and the 19th century gazeteers of Yongnian county survived the cultural revolution. So there is enough documentation to write a fairly reliable history of the principle players back to 1800 or so. Before that, there are many stories, but it becomes less verifiable.

• Do you do T'ai Chi Firestar? Let me guess, you do Yang style T'ai Chi. This article is far too heavily weighted towards Yang style and their attempts to promote their style through documentation and lineage. Get a life guys, no one is interested in this. Please can you stop censoring this article and find something better to do with your life? As for the rest of you let's hear something more interesting about Chi energy and Taoist philosophy and enough talk about redundant lineage documents.

Well, you are wrong in your guess, I don't do the Yang style (I respect them notwithstanding), but I have studied T'ai Chi for 21 years (two of those years in China) and taught it now for 15, 13 of those teaching years as a disciple of another of the T'ai Chi families. I've fought lei tai and san shou using T'ai Chi exclusively and I've also been fortunate enough to learn tui na and nei gong as used by the traditional T'ai Chi teachers I stayed with in Hong Kong. If by "interesting" you mean speculation or original research, that isn't what an encyclopaedia is for. See Wikipedia:what Wikipedia is not. While I'm not averse to adding new info about Taoism, etc., it has to done well, and I see no reason to remove anything. I have answered every one of your criticisms, and after considering them I again can only conclude that you haven't read any of the article beyond the lineage chart. Your comments about "get a life" put you on the edge of our no personal attacks policy, which I suggest you read thoroughly along with the rest of the T'ai Chi article before we continue our discussions. --Fire Star 21:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star, it looks like you put in a lot of effort to answer just one critical person. Well done. I hope Chuangzu will appreciate it and if he has something substantial to add we will hear from him. --JohJak2 09:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the consideration. Looking it over, The only thing I see missing from my response is that I should have emphasised more that I am quite willing to work with people on any article. It is good that Chuangzu made a list of his concerns and published it here, because that is the way to go forward. My response (perhaps a bit overwhelming) to the list's wording and overall tone was in aid of demonstrating, with citations, that I for one believe these issues had indeed been addressed in the article. Is the article perfect? Absolutely not. I'm not perfect, either. My response was probably triggered by my martial arts teachers' knee-jerk reaction to being condescended to by another stylist. ;-) Without being personally offensive, I wanted to convey my complete rejection of the use of that negotiating tool by anyone who assumes (based on a simple disagreement) that they know more about a subject, and ourselves (the little pat on the head about being a "Yang stylist"), than we do. Assume good faith is a forgiving policy, and if Chuangzu still wants to work with us, I'll be happy to address his concerns in a constructive, and as you've mentioned, respectful, manner. Regards, --Fire Star 14:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Title of article

The titling this article seems weird. I'm not trying to rehash the old Wade-Giles/pinyin debate. However, even in Wade-Giles, 太極拳 is T'ai Chi Ch'üan not Tai Chi Chuan (which looks like it might mean 帶雞傳 or something). Not only that, but we begin the article T'ai Chi Ch'uan, which is confusing because it differs from the title. Can we come up with something a little more consistent?

Also, I'm kind of thinking "Tai Chi Chuan" should not be capitalised. - Nat Krause 08:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I agree its a big mess. It was Tai Chi Chuan before I started editing Wikipedia. In my experience over the years, the most common form I've seen is "T'ai Chi Ch'uan" (and every conceivable variant following). The largest selling periodical published in English devoted to the art, Marvin Smallheiser's T'ai Chi Magazine tends to favour the T'ai Chi Ch'uan form. Douglas Wile, another well known author, tends to prefer t'ai-chi ch'üan or T'ai-chi Ch'üan. Taijiquan is gaining ground, but mostly with the wushu bunch. So, my vote, I suppose, would be T'ai Chi Ch'uan for the primary form and all the others redirects. --Fire Star 21:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I would definitely support a move to T'ai Chi Ch'uan, although, now that umlauts are an option, I would prefer T'ai Chi Ch'üan—Wikipedia style seems to heavily favor diacritics in titles, even in cases where I think it goes too far. - Nat Krause 17:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I could live with the umlaut. With the right redirects, it won't be an impediment to first time searchers finding the article, and the prominent infobox does a good job of explaining things. --Fire Star 18:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Try the Google test:

(Deceiving: all these tests are from Canada-google JohJak2 15:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

"T'ai Chi Ch'uan": 129,000 hits (1x)

Taijiquan: 672,000 hits (5x)

"Tai Chi Chuan": 2,370,000 hits (18x)

Also,

"T'ai Chi Ch'uan" "martial art": 21,600 hits (1x)

"Tai Chi Chuan" "martial art": 86,700 hits (4x)

I personally find the title to be fine. Shawnc 11:01, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Are all the alternates redirects to the current article? That should take care of anyone having trouble finding the article. RJFJR 18:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes they all redirect here. Shawnc 05:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

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Moved contribution from User:Wintran downward.

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So, I was thinking about the above for awhile and it kept seeming that there was something odd about it. Eventually, I realised that we seem to be assuming that one of these various spellings is the common name for taijiquan in English. But, of course, it's not ... the common name for taijiquan is "tai chi". I've never really heard anyone call it "tai chi chuan". How does one even pronounce "tai chi chuan"? (I know how to say "tai chi", and it's not the same as 太极). Why don't we move this article to tai chi? Bear in mind that we are normally stuck using the form of the name used in the title throughout the article (i.e., referring to it as "tai chi" or "taijiquan" repeatedly in the article), but, if we get around that, then we have to decide what we are going to call it instead. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 22:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Romanising into English is a seemingly intractable problem, but the pronunciation, as we mention in the article, is T'ai4 Chi2 Ch'üan2 or Tàijíquán. "Tai Chi" redirects here, but the name of the art is 太極拳 which is what the Chinese call it, as well as those who study in a traditional school. "T'ai4 Chi2" or "Tàijí" by itself in Chinese refers to the principle of yin yang described in the taijitu, even if it is shorthand for the art with westerners. In the literature, most publications capitalise the term (although some don't), perhaps a Google test will show that conclusively. --Fire Star 05:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you think it should be capitalised, that's fine with me. I'm more concerned with what the spelling should be. I still think "Tai Chi Chuan" is objectionable, because it is neither the most common name for 太極拳 nor is it a correct spelling. My preference would be to move the article to Tai Chi, which is the common name and will be easier to type, link to, and search for, but then to perform a switcheroo right at the start of the article and refer to it as T'ai Chi Ch'üan throughout. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 19:01, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I originally learned "Tai Chi Chuan" 5 years ago. I finally found a class in the form locally where I live. I am very excited about that. I am also pleased to find so much information online about "Tai Chi Chuan" It is a disctinct form. I do not understand why someone would even say they have never heard it referred to with that name so just call it "Tai Chi"? It is what it is. (20:55, 3 May 2006 192.127.94.7)

I'm not sure I follow you. You say that "Tai Chi Chuan" is a distinct form. Do you mean that it is distinct from "Tai Chi"? That is not correct. They are the same thing. I certainly have heard 太極拳 referred to as taijiquan, but I still think it is generally called Tai Chi in English. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

(Please don't hit me, Wintran, but I could not find your valuable contribution at first. Therefore I moved it downward to fit in timeline. --JohJak2 15:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

No problem, you're totally right :) I was a bit confused by the horizontal line and the sub-section below, that's why it ended up where it did, but now that you mention it this seems like a better place. Wintran 15:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused over the latest move from Tai Chi Chuan to T'ai Chi Ch'üan. According to the Google test and my own experience, the most common spelling is "Tai Chi Chuan" followed by "Taijiquan". "T'ai Chi Ch'üan" is romanized using the dated Wade-Giles romanization system, and though "Tai Chi Chuan" is a simplified version of this romanization, the latter has been adopted by the English language as the most common spelling. If we do decide that we favor correct romanization over common usage, "Taijiquan" would seem like the correct main article, as it's both more frequently used than "T'ai Chi Ch'üan" and uses the more modern Pinyin romanization. However, to avoid going against Wikipedia:Naming conventions, my proposal is that we change the title back to "Tai Chi Chuan", as this is the most common English term among non-scholars. Wintran 14:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Wintran. I find this a silly move. I find no redeeming value in a name change whereby the new name can most likely not even be pronounced properly by the majority of people that look for information here. Adding accents to the name is already confusing, but adding an umlaut that does not have any (or extremely limited) use in the English language is ridiculous. The name Tai Chi Chuan is easy to recognize and to write for everybody. Leave the phonetics to the specialists, please. --JohJak2 15:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

As I have argued above, "tai chi chuan" is not the most common English name, which would be, simply, "tai chi". To insist on including the "ch'üan" is pedantic. And so, the title "tai chi chuan" is probably the second most common spelling, but it strikes me as an odd mix of pedantry and anti-pedantry. I have stated my preference above to move the article to Tai Chi, but I prefer not to use "Tai Chi Chuan", which satisfies neither the criterion of common-ness nor that of pedantic accuracy. That said, I'll go along with what other editors decide (I wasn't the one who moved it a couple days ago). In any event, I worked a little bit to consolidate the redirected links to this article, which should make it slightly easier to sort the redirects out if we have to move the page again. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 17:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

PS - I'm still curious about how "tai chi chuan" is pronounced. I know how to pronounce "tai chi" (/tʰaɪ ʧʰi/, "tie chee"), and I know to pronounce "t'ai-chi ch'üan" (with a bit of an American accent, it would be /tʰaɪ ʤi ʧʰɥæn/ or /ʧʰjuæn/, "tie jee chyuan"). But how does one read "tai chi chuan"?

PPS - Y'all might like to know that there are way worse cases of squiggly-mark and foreign-character abuse on Wikipedia than this one. Check out Lech Wałęsa or Níðhöggr, off the top of my head. As I'm generally against that sort of thing, I'd appreciate input on pages like Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (thorn)

I agree with you that "Tai Chi" is an even more common term than "Tai Chi Chuan", and a very common abbreviation. However, as Fire Star mentioned above, the concept of Tai Chi (or Taiji in Pinyin) has a much deeper meaning in Chinese philosophy, explained in Taiji, and is used by the English language as well. If you look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) it states the following: "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." If we call this article "Tai Chi" I think there might be a conflict, so my belief is that "Tai Chi Chuan" is the best pick, even though I agree with you that "Tai Chi" is a more common term in English. One option could be to use Tai Chi Chuan as the main article, but use the term "Tai Chi" as an abbreviation inside the article, and explain that it's commonly used that way.

PS - I think you pronounce it something like "Tie Chee Chwan". However, if you want to pronounce it in correct Chinese you need to use the correct tones, and there is a bit difference in the pronounciation of the two "Ch":s.

Wintran 20:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

So, how about moving this article back to Tai Chi Chuan? This includes moving categories and such. Wintran 14:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

For me it is a toss up: either Taijiquan or Tai Chi Chuan. Rather than what it is now. JohJak2 14:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Since the usage Tai Chi Chuan gets the most Google hits, it is arguably the most common form in English. W-G has problems, pinyin has problems, there are even two different versions in Chinese characters, traditional and simplified. We shouldn't decide the merits of the romanisation schemes. Most T'ai Chi literature (largely thanks to Cheng Man-ch'ing's prolific group of students) is in W-G. We should list all the variants in the infobox like we do, with perhaps the most common usage (Tai Chi Chuan, apparently) as the main title and everything else as a redirect. In the T'ai Chi articles, I propose W-G followed by a parenthetical pinyin for each phrase. --Fire Star 火星 16:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Tai Chi Chuan is fine with me. I notice in de interwikilinks that it is about half-half Taijiquan or Tai Chi Chuan with a few stragglers. The google-most-used argument is good enough for me. JohJak2 17:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't object to moving back to Tai Chi Chuan at this point; I don't know if anyone does object. I still thinking there's a lot to be said for moving to Tai Chi instead. There isn't much to be said in favour of the current title.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 06:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

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There are some orthographic problems with this article, which is understandable considering Wade-Giles has been chosen as the method of transliteration. Chen (陳) and ch'uan (拳) have different initial consonant sounds, but the article referes to Chen style as ch'en throughout. I think the apostrophe should be dropped from Chen. I could very well be mistaken on this point, however, as I have pretty much abandoned Wade-Giles as a transliteration method long-ago. In fact, pretty much the whole world (outside the non-Chinese martial arts world) has done so too; even Taiwan now officially promulgates a new (and equally confusing) Tong Yong method. I think its time for the martial arts world to make a leap forward and begin using a more modern method.

The consonants at the beginning of 陳 and 拳 are not the same, but they are quite similar, and they are not distinguished in Wade-Giles romanisation. "Ch'en" and "ch'üan" are correct, respectively. Hanyu Pinyin does distinguish the difference, so they become "chen" and "quan", respectively.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 02:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

All the more reason to abandon Wade-Giles.--Baoluo 03:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

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I took the liberty of performing the move to Tai Chi Chuan. If someone still objects, continue discussions here. - Wintran ^(talk) 23:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I fall under still object, because I just came across this article. But the name of the activity is actually 太极拳. The current standard representation of these chinese characters uses the pinyin system, which, when written, it is Tàijíquán or often simplified as Taijiquan. ~ Feureau 23:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Double redirects

I noticed some double redirects and already fixed a couple before noticing that the recent move is within the last day. Hopefully the name can be quickly settled and then the double redirects also fixed.

I would have thought Tai Chi (with or without capitals) was the most suitable name, as this is what it is commonly known as in English; however I'll leave it to others to work it out. --Singkong2005 04:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go through and fix the double redirects that have main namespace articles linking to them. I'll try to consolidate some of the links in the form [[T'ai Chi Ch'üan|Variant Form]], which will make it easier to update things in the future if the page moves around again. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 04:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Chi and naming

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

Apparently there is some relationship between tai chi and the chi/qi life-force concept, but it is not explained in this article. Is that relationship why "chi" appears in the in the name of this art, or is that a linguistic coincidence? (How did the art get its name, anyway?) -- Beland 20:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a coincidence. The "chi" in "tai chi" is actually pronounced something like "jee" in Chinese, whereas "chi", the life-force concept, is pronounced something like "chee". They are different words. Tai chi is named after the bizarrely confusing philosophical concept of taiji. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 20:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, Chineese is only a written language, so when we talk about pronounciation we should talk about Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. /Kamil (Ruok) 03.06.2006 (06=June)

What is the basis for your statement that "Chinese is only a written language"? From my experience, studying Mandarin Chinese, which is a spoken and written language like English, and the official language of China, Chinese is what the language is called. Cantonese is also frequently referred to as Chinese, as it is a Chinese dialect. "Chinese" encompasses many dialects, all of which are not only written languages.Eh Nonymous 14:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Chinese is a language incredibly rich in homophones, or words that have the same pronunciation but different meanings. In Chinese, these differences are represented by different characters, but in English these distinctions are lost. Additionally, the Wade Giles othographic system confuses things further with its use of apostrophes to distinguish certain consonant clusters. Tai chi (太極) is pronounced as 'tai4ji2 while ch'i (氣) is pronounced as 'qi4'. These words in fact, share neither pronunciation nor character, and are completed unrelated.

Secondly, 太極 is not a bizarrely confusing philosphy, but is actually elegantly simple and represented quite concisely by the 太極圖 (tai4ji2tu2) or yin yang. Tai ji means supreme ultimate, and is a fundamental principle underlying all existence. Simply put, everything has an opposite, and these pairs of opposites are in constant, perpetual flux, like the tides or phases of the moon. The confusing nature of taiji is due to the several thousand years of academic analysis that scholars have foisted upon it.

Thirdly, Kamil does have a point in distinguishing between written and spoken Chinese; until the early 20th century, Chinese was written in am archaic, classical form; scholars from any part of China could correspond quite easily with one another, regardless of the dialect spoken. Beginning with Hu Shi, scholars began to advocate modernizing the written form of the language, bringing it more line with spoken dialects. Before this process began however, it was senseless to speak of written Mandarin, or written Cantonese; these were spoken dialects only, and any writing that was done was done in the classical form. It is a recent inovation for a dialect to be linked with a writing system, and even today, many scholars and linguists are struggling to find ways to express dialects other than Mandarin in Chinese characters. To make a short point long, it is important to distinguish between pronunciation in different dialects, as a Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong will use the same characters to write 太極拳 as a northerner, but will pronounce them differently. If you're not going to use characters to talk about Chinese things, you're going to have to be more specific.--Baoluo 09:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Baoluo- Thanks for the historical information, which I was not aware of. I stand corrected - Kamil is right to point that out. Thanks for your response.Eh Nonymous 19:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Pinyin all over the place

The pinyin in this article is all over the place. Either use wade-giles or pinyin and stick to it everywhere.

Too much focus on references to certain commercial organisations in the west.

I have tried to remove some links that are too parochial.

Also removed some references to weapons that are not part of mainstream tai chi (i.e. wip/dart/3sectioned staff)

Recent history: Tai chi is being promoted within china recently to try and counter the cult of falun gong.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielpoon (talk • contribs)

T'ai Chi and Diabetes

I think that the reference given for this is lacking in that the entry suggests it might rise to the level of a pilot study in the generally understood conventional medicine/research sense, and the cite is simply an interview in which, in my understanding, there's a bit of anecdotal reportage and the possibility of a pilot study forthcoming. Am I missing something? 24.199.71.163 23:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Chi Kung

Shouldn't we say that the healing part of Tai Chi is acutally Chi Kung? People generally do not understand the difference between the two.

Kamil (Ruok) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruok (talk • contribs)

It isn't necessarily the case. There are many different styles of T'ai Chi, and some have qigong and some don't. Schools without dedicated qigong training can still have a health benefit. --Fire Star 火星 01:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

External links abuse

Who is this annoynmous joker who keeps repeatedly adding the "Free TV channel" link (see history)? Can we block him some how? Can we lock the page for a while until he gives up the spam? Triponi 10:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Reported IP address to WP:AIV - to temporarily protect the page see WP:PROT. --apers0n 11:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Now semi-protected. Leave it a while and then remove the protection status and also remove from WP:PROT when the vandal has given up. --apers0n 12:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

We need to protect the page agian, that anon spammer with the "free tv channel" is back. VanTucky 21:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I have sprotected it again as the "free TV" idiot is certainly presistant, so I think we need to keep the protection on for quiet a while. Please discuss removing it here, before doing it! Triponi 08:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The semiprotection is now activated per request here --apers0n 19:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Zhaobao style

We really could use a separate article on Zhaobao style. It is pretty well known and has serious practitioners, especially in China. Unfortunately, I don't know enough of its history to do it justice. Anyone else know anything about it? --Fire Star 火星 14:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Tai Chi Magazine has at least one issue with an interview with a Zhaobao master. I might have a hard copy somewhere I can reference. VanTucky 00:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

We have a stubby new article at Zhaobao style Taijiquan. --Fire Star 火星 04:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

See Also

I think there should be an internal link to Chin Na in the See Also category. I'd do it myself but I'm a new user and I am not even really sure how. maybe one of the admins can do it. VanTucky 19:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)VanTucky

It is already linked in the training section. Not all styles teach it, unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure 100 years ago they all did. Perhaps we can make the mention a little more prominent. --Fire Star 火星 16:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the internal link to Waterbender, its too obscure. Olaus M 13:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Good. As far as I can tell, the character's association with Taijiquan is mostly wishful thinking. It is apparently mentioned as part of their backstory, but they never (or hardly ever) do any Taijiquan in the show. --Fire Star 火星 13:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

TaiChi Website

About two years ago, I found this website on taichi which offered videos of various forms (24-form, 48-form, etc). I think it offered still photos as well. To put it simply, I cant find it anymore, do any of you guys know where it is? -Guest

So sorry, I found it myself within a few minutes. It is http://www.taiji.de/. Could any of you senior users please add it to the External Links section (semi-protection)? I think it is of great practical importance. -Same Guest

Tai Chi America's website also has several form demonstration videos in a different format than realplayer. VanTucky 23:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Taiji

The short article Taiji dates to September, 2003. It appears to cover the same ground as this one. Take a look and see if you agree that it should be merged here. --Blainster 17:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, they don't quite cover the same topic. Taiji is more of a concept commonly discussed in Taoism, while Tai Chi Chuan (or taijiquan) is a specific style of martial art based on this concept. - Wintran ^(talk) 21:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

However, colloqial usage of 'Tai Chi' refers to the exercise form, not to the Taoist concept. At least some kind of disambiguisation would be appropriate - 67.176.177.166 15:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is exactly what is confusing to the the English speaker who is not familiar with Chinese culture. Why does "Tai Chi" redirect here, while "Tai chi" redirects to the Taiji article? I believe that for non-expert westerners the quoted spellings refer to the slow, rhythmic exercise suitable for all ages. Anonymous User:200.148.45.70 in Montevideo, Uruguay silently removed the merge tag 24 hours after I placed it, but some clarification is still needed. How about this: first, the two variants just quoted should both point to the same article, and second, that article should mention the slow exercise in its first paragraph. (Note that the Wiki MOS recommends bolding redirect terms and placing them as close as possible to the beginning of the article.) --Blainster 20:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That is a good idea. I didn't know about the "Tai Chi" and "Tai chi" thing. I've been a little busy lately, only managing cursory visits to WP, so I haven't done any work on the problem. We have a nice dab sentence we could adapt at the top of the pushing hands article. --Fire Star 火星 22:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Buddhist Meditation

Although Tai Chi is largely based on the philosophy Taoism, isn't its meditation based on Zen Buddhist meditation except in a more moving form? Zachorious 08:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

What at least 4 of the 5 main styles teach is that the external forms themselves are from Buddhist martial arts, the meditation principles (neigong) are from Taoism and the teaching structure is from Confucianism. Nowadays, especially in the west, people mix it with whatever they want, but the way it was taught 200 years ago was in a coherent structure based on those three streams. --Fire Star 火星 12:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't the Shaolin Monks (whose Shallow Temple is a Zen Buddhist temple) practice Tai Chi as well, or is it a combination of many forms of kung fu and tai chi? Zachorious 15:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

People with shaved heads living in Songshan who say they are Shaolin monks do teach what they call T'ai Chi Ch'uan. They may indeed be real Shaolin monks, I don't know, but the T'ai Chi I've seen them do is the Chinese govt. wushu variety. --Fire Star 火星 22:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

So what are the similarities and differences between Buddhist and Taoist meditation in that respect? Is it the moving in Tao or are they pretty much the same except for movement? Zachorious 03:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is complicated. There are many different sects of both Taoism and Buddhism. Some seem complementary, some seem drastically different. Some Taoist schools seem to have more in common with some Buddhist practises than with other groups who also identify as Taoist, and vice versa. For T'ai Chi purposes (and remember mine is just one opinion, no matter how much I flatter myself regarding my teachers) Buddhist groups that appear to be most relevant are the Chan and Pure Land doctrines. The Taoist schools were described to me as the "hygienic" or naturalist sects, which eschew seeking psychic power or immortality in this world, as opposed to "alchemical" or immortalist Taoists. And still, over the years there looks like there has been much language and other influence from groups seemingly outside those streams that I think I can detect. Generally, the softer elements seem to come from Taoism, and the harder from Buddhism, although that isn't a 100% correlation either. There are qigong exercises I was shown that my teachers have said are identical to Shaolin exercises, for example. It is the practical study of yin and yang, whether Buddhist or Taoist, that characterises usefulness for T'ai Chi purposes, I'd say. The physical and energetic states involved in the meditation I was shown, the movement or stilness requirements and where they are required are all expressions of changes of perception relating to yin and yang categories. --Fire Star 火星 05:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

From my perspective, FireStar is pretty much correct. For general purposes is can be summarized that many physical/ethical practices of TaiJi come from Buddhist and Confucian sources. The mental/meditative elements of TaiJi are more akin to Taoist practices (having participated in Taoist religous ceremony, chanting and meditation myself). But again, when describing China and the products of its culture (like Taiji) one must remember that the line between Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism is blurred. So for the article, its better just to discuss what the practices of TaiJi players are instead of discussing what may or may not be their origins. it also tends to start frivolous arguements VanTucky 19:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

ChineseText template

The {{ChineseText}} overlaps the text in my IE 6 browser. Yonidebest 22:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

"Secrets"

Tai Chi Chuan Secrets Most modern teachers teach the form alone, but this cannot lead to a mastery of Tai Chi Chuan. This is the legacy of teaching the art to the royal family of the Qing Dynasty.

In addition to form, one has to learn the verbal secrets, called kou juie. This is used to coordinate the psychosomatic aspects of the art. Another secret is the movement of the chi, and how to coordinate it with the form. This involves using "locks" to control its flow, as dissipated chi is of not much use. Finally, application of the form is rarely taught; the student has to figure that out, and this takes years.

The above was removed from the article until sources are provided so it can be established that the above statements aren't original research on the part of their contributor. --Fire Star 火星 04:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I just want to say bravo Firestar. Your recent work to make the Tai Chi family of articles gold-star quality has been greatly appreciated. I'd give you a barnstar, but I have absolutely no clue how. and as far as this balderdash about using verbal secrets as psychosomatic aids, I just have to say this person is the kind of New Age nutcase that makes skeptics discard taiji and qigong into the dungheap of superstitious nonsense. its an internal art, which means that chi moves through your body (either with or without intention) internally. the idea that saying a set of magic incantations is the heart of neigong is absurd. VanTucky 19:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, thanks. I've conversed with the above editor (who is from Singapore), and I'm convinced there is a slight language issue and that the main misunderstanding is that they are very new to the project more than anything else. --Fire Star 火星 20:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Fire Star is performing a great service. I do not disagree that the article modification is unsuitable, as pointed out by Fire Star. Nonetheless, regarding the nutcase comment, there could be some pertinent quotations from Arthur C. Clarke:

• There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum.
• Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
• The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible. Cottonball 01:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

We certainly don't want to imply that there are nutcases at Wikipedia. I think (I can't speak for him, so this is a guess) that VanTucky is reacting to the dozens if not hundreds of bad T'ai Chi teachers he has seen, too. I put it down to a case of misunderstanding and would ask that we all work to get these articles to A class rating. I have mentioned, if only obliquely, here and at the Chinese martial arts article that bad or incomplete teaching (same thing, really) does harm to the reputations of our arts. We can have stylistic differences here, but we can all agree that we want good articles, especially compared to some debates I've seen here over the years I think we have a very good chance. Regards, --Fire Star 火星 02:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Firestar is correct in his comment about why I reacted the way I did. it seems that simple misunderstanding is the culprit for any inappropriate content. to address whatever pertinence I can derive from your quotations Cottonball...

about advanced technology (or in this case, physical technique) seeming miraculous and the necessity for imagination in pushing the boundaries of a given field: there are many things about advanced taiji practice that can seem nearly magical to the untrained eye or that have little to no scientific proof but can be reproduced by anyone given time and effort. such as the ability of someone to push over the last person standing in a connected line while leaving all others before him standing. I'm not sure if what you mean to suggest by those quotes, but what I glean from them indirectly is that you are trying to say: dont be so sure of everything, what some have called impossible has been done. well, thats very true. but I think Arthur C. Clarke would agree with me in saying that just because some new and wonderful ability is professed doesnt stifle the requirment for the same simple empirical proof that we require of anything else. VanTucky 19:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

---

somewhat anonymous poster here, just wanted to point something out. Towards the bottom in the "Health benefits" section, it says that taijiquan burns more calories than surfing and almost as much as downhill skiing, when according to the supplied calorie burning chart link, neither is true.

GA

i have failed this for now. The article, for the exception of the medical benefits section, is not referenced well, and needs citations. A prose cleanup could defintely be of benefit, however. Clean it up, get some citations, then relist it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)