Talk:Tahrif

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Did You Know An entry from Tahrif appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 7 March 2006.
Wikipedia

Contents

[edit] May we call this a tentative to "change the past"?

From a completely skeptic point of view, it seems pretty obvious that the first Muslim writers in fact borrowed texts from the holy books and "religious mythology" of the Jews and Christians (simply because these religions are older, not necessarily wiser or "closer to the truth"). Then, after, copying and editing other people's texts, they go and accuse them of being adultered, just because they do not agree with your version of the fairy tale (and how could they, anyway?). Just like Virgil writing the Aeneid and accusing Homer's Iliad of being wrong. Fernando K


This is not a blog, religious people are not accusing Skeptics of being ill-guided (I say this as an example, I'm not trying to accuse you in a roundabout way.)If they are, they should not be. Wikipedia is a place for Nuetral Point of View, and positive energy. Calling peoples religion "mythology" causes offense and leads to non-productive argument. Please avoid trolling on talk pages, whether or not you do so intentionally. I'm not accusing you, but I am trying to avoid people arguing pointlessly over a matter that has no place on Wikipedia. Please sign your comments with four tildes. Angrynight 03:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Angrynight, you yourself are close to trolling by your accusation of others. Religious mythology is an established vice of the religious in all religions - the very fact of their religious motives shows they are for the most part acting out of piety and in the very best of faith. But faith and fact are two very different costumes, one made of a concomitantly lesser length of objective truth than the other.
Nuttyskin 08:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Refutation Section needs fixin'

Don't worry, I'm not trying to incite a POV war, but the section alleges an early refutation. How early? I want to hear more, I think whoever wrote the section, while with good intentions of enriching the article, has shortchanged us. This really interests me. I'm genuinly intrigued and want to hear more, please expand it and give more details.Angrynight 03:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

added more information under the "Early refutation" section plus reference to the book on which the information is based. This book is accessible via books.google.com
When searching for more information on this topic, I found out that the argument of tahrif, or forgery, is also used within Islam, between the Sunites and Shi'ites, so I added a new section Blubberbrein2 08:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I completed this part by adding some information from the article of a Sunni Scholar about Shi'a viewpoint.Is the Qur’an Corrupted? Shi’ites’ View --Sa.vakilian 12:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We make a new article entitled "Criticism of Tahrif"

There are simply too many criticisms scattered about. (71.188.101.57 (talk) 06:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] The article POV

The article is POV since

1. It does not reflect what all Muslims think. Many Muslims do not believe in tahrif as it is presented here. For example, According to the Gary Miller [1], Qur'an doesn't say the people of the book changed their books. Qur'an only makes three accusations:

(I) The Quran says some of the Jews and Christians pass over much of what is in their scriptures.
(II) Some of them have changed the words, and this is the one that is misused by Muslims very often giving the impression that once there was a true bible and then somebody hid that one away, then they published a false one. The Quran doesn’t say that. What it criticizes is that people who have the proper words in front of them, but they don’t deliver that up to people. They mistranslate it, or misrepresent it, or they add to the meaning of it. They put a different slant on it.
(III) And the third accusation is that some people falsely attribute to God what is really written by men.


2. In the article Similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an we read "Particular Muslims such as the Mu'tazili and Ismaili sects (accounting for a fairly small percentage of total Muslim population), as well as various liberal movements within Islam, believe that different revelations are created by God for the needs of particular times and places."

THEREFORE The article is not neural. I am not sure about factuality but that shia-sunni thing was clearly wrong. (This was not the belief of mainstream shia at least. As a shia, I was angry at that.)--Aminz 09:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

---

Comment: what I say is that the foundation of the doctrine of tahrif is laid by Qur'an. Indeed, when closely looking and analyzing those verses it does not say that the text of the Holy Books of the Jews and the Christians were distorted. That's why is said in the section "Tahrif in the first centuries of Islam":

In the first centuries of Islam, tahrif was not a central theme, though well-known. Early commentaries filled out the gaps left by the relevant Qu'ranic verses. Muslim scholars were making a distinction in the corruption of the text itself and the wrong interpretation of the text.
In the sense of originality or authenticity of the text itself, the majority of Muslim polemicists in the 8th and 9th century believed that the text of the previous scriptures, at least in the case of the Hebrew Bible, were not corupted. Among them are Ibn al-Layth, Ibn Rabban, Ibn Qutayba, Al-Ya'qubi, Al-Tabari, Al-Baqillani, Al-Ma'sudi

The Qu'ran says the Holy Books of the Jews are the Word of God. The Injil is also the Word of God. But one cannot say "Qu'ran is authentic AND the other Holy Books are authentic". So the claim laid by most Muslims NOW (instead of the early Muslim scholars) is that the text itself is wrong (instead of misinterpreting/misreading). In the first centuries of Islam, most muslim scholars didn't believe so. Ibn Hazm can be looked upon as a turning point
Blubberbrein2 12:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for explanation. I tagged the article to be POV since it does not reflect what all the modern Muslims think. I think this is the very definition of POV. I stress "Not ALL modern Muslims believe in tahrif in the sense that the book has been changed." As you said, they think tahrif refers to the wrong interpretation of the text. So, still there are Muslims who believe in the same way as people thought in the first centuries of Islam. But they are in minority of course.
I don't agree with your statement that "But one cannot say "Qu'ran is authentic AND the other Holy Books are authentic". This is the logic of Qu'ran: It says that Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible. So, now that Muhammad has come, people should listen to him, because Qu'ran claims that the scripture says so. Moreover, “Different narrations” is not foreign to the Bible. I know there may seem a cyclic reasoning here but Qur'an's whole point, to my mind, is that one should not denounce Qur'an only because of its “Different narrations” with Bible. A further investigation is required. Of course, had Qur'an asked people to go after other gods that people didn't know, they would have sufficient evidence not to hear to Muhammad. Thanks --Aminz 22:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


I changed the last section. It now reads:

"Although adherents of Sunni Islam and Shi'a Islam are most of the time using the same Qu'ran, some adherents of Shi'a Islam accuse the adherents of Sunni Islam to have a Quran that are removed from the Qur'an, namely (surat al-wilaya and surat al–nurayn), that supposedly were forged in order to justify Ali’s right to succession.
In doing so, the Shiites distort the Quran (tahrif) according to these Sunites. It is also claimed that the Shiites have forged hadiths in order to justify their doctrines.
Shiites believe that Imams are the infallible interpreters of the Qur'an. According to this belief, they alone have the divinely-revealed hermeneutic and commentary on the text, as well as the proper order of the text.

Please provide reliable references. At least show me one Shia scholar who believes in those two Sura's. Thanks. --Aminz 23:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to more about this, follow the links which already have been provided before (and read it before commenting)
Debate Topics: The Compilation of the Text of the Qur'an and the Sunni-Shia Dispute Blubberbrein2 23:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Blubberbrein2, thanks for the link. I'll go through it but what I want to prove here is that those two sura's are forgery. I think they are forgeries made by Sunnis to accuse Shias. --Aminz 00:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Blubberbrein2, in the article:"Misconceptions about the Shi'a" we read: It is a misconception that "The Shi'a believe in the distortion of the Qur'an. (In reality, Shias have the exact same Qur'an as the Sunnis)." I didn't have time to go through the links but ask an editor of the article(:"Misconceptions about the Shi'a") to help us here. Thanks--Aminz 20:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they have the same text, but some people who call themselves Shi'ites are claming that the Qu'ran they have misses some verses/chapters. It all his to do with the murder of Ali by some other people, the time of the first 4 caliphes. But I think you know more on this topic. It is not really relevant for the article on Tahrif except that this argument is also used within several branches within Islam. (I mean, for example, I know some Sufi's who fled from regimes where they were not allowed). 'Islam' is like 'christianity' or 'judaism' or other '-isms' not coherent, despite all arguments. That's why I focus myselves on the texts on which ideas and conceptions are based.
Blubberbrein2 20:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Blubberbrein2, I browsed the link you sent for me. I need to go over it more carefully later, but found nothing supporting your sentence:"Although adherents of Sunni Islam and Shi'a Islam are most of the time using the same Qu'ran, some adherents of Shi'a Islam accuse the adherents of Sunni Islam to have a Quran that are removed from the Qur'an, namely (surat al-wilaya and surat al–nurayn), that supposedly were forged in order to justify Ali’s right to succession."

As this is the main sentence in the Shia-Sunni part, I'll remove the section. Please show me relevant links. I don't like to go through a link and find it unrelevant to what I am looking for there. I found no support for the sentence "some adherents of Shi'a Islam accuse the adherents of Sunni Islam to have a Quran that are removed from the Qur'an, namely (surat al-wilaya and surat al–nurayn), that supposedly were forged in order to justify Ali’s right to succession." Thanks. --Aminz 07:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

This links http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/dispute.htm says in paragraph 5.3:

The fact is is that, according to Shi'ites (and you don't take the words of the common Shi'ite, but rather of their major scholars such as Ayatollahs), the Qur'an is correct when both sects read it. They don't have 2 different Qur'ans. The only people who say this are Shi'ite-haters. Armyrifle 21:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

5.3 Sunni Polemics Since the Sunni-Shia divide was primarily political in origin, the contribution of Khomeini and Siddiqi might indicate that a major bone of contention has been healed, and we can only pray that the peaceful relations the two Islamic sects have enjoyed in Britain and the West will continue. However, the divide encompasses more than political considerations. A relatively minor problem is that Shi'is do not believe the Qur'an is uncreated. The Shia, because they hold that the active attributes of God, such as speaking, are not eternal, believe that the Qur'an, as the 'speech' of God, is created. To Shia, the Sunni view borders on polytheism. '
A major difficulty is that Sunni and Shi'i polemicists accuse each other of corrupting the Qur'an'. Saudi Arabia has printed a number of anti-Shia booklets in English in recent years which allege that the Shi'is make this claim about the Sunnis - that the latter have tampered with the text by excising verses. For example, the Jamaican-Canadian Muslim convert, Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, one of the most respected Islamic scholars in the West, has translated anti-Shia works which make this assertion, especially about the 'missing' Surah concerning Ali, Surah Wilaya, that the Shi'is are supposed to allege was excised from the Qur'an. A further claim is that Shi'is believe that yet another chapter Surah Nurain (forty-one verses), the 'Chapter of the Two Lights' (i.e. Muhammad and Ali) was removed. Sunnis allege that Shi'is believe that the authentic copy of the Qur'an, compiled by Ali, is in the hands of the Twelfth Imam and will be presented by him when he returns as Mahdi. In the meantime, Shi'is use the 'Uthmanic Qur'an, but they interpret it in the light of their Hadith collections, which reinterpret texts in the Sunni edition of the Qur'an after a Shia fashion. According to Sunni polemicists, a Shi'i hadith purportedly states:

Jabir says, 'I heard Imam Baqar... saying: One who says that he has collected the whole Quran is a big liar'.

It goes on to state:

'Only Ali and the Imams collected it all and preserved it.'

It is noteworthy that even a respected Orientalist scholar such as Montgomery Watt echoes this belief.

The Shi'a, it is true, has always held that the Qur'an was mutilated by the suppression of much which referred to 'Ali and the Prophet's family. This charge... is not specially directed against 'Uthman, but just as much against the first two caliphs, under whose auspices the first collection is assumed to have been made.

Shi'is deny these accusations, and state that they uphold the veracity of the present edition. The great Shi'i scholar Shaykh Saduq, (919-991 A. D.), stated (and with this agree the Shi'i scholars Allama Ridha Mudhaffar and Sayyid al-Murtadha)

Our belief is that the Qur'an, which God revealed to His Prophet Muhammad (is the same as) the one between the boards (daffatayn).

Jafri comments:

... the text of the Qur'an as it is to be found in the textus receptus,... is accepted wholly by the Shi'is, just as it is by the Sunnis. Thus the assertion that the Shi'is believe that a part of the Qur'an is not included in the textus receptus is erroneous.

I completed this part by adding some information from the article of a Sunni Scholar about Shi'a viewpoint.Is the Qur’an Corrupted? Shi’ites’ View --Sa.vakilian 12:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Get ridd of this

some adherents of Shi'a Islam accuse the adherents of Sunni Islam to have a Quran that are removed from the Qur'an, namely (surat al-wilaya and surat al–nurayn), that supposedly were forged in order to justify Ali’s right to succession.

--Striver 23:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

YES, Get rid of this!!!!!!!!! Shia Muslims don't believe in surat al-wilaya and surat al–nurayn at all. --Aminz 02:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The main point of the section is that the argument of tahrif is used within different Islamic groups.

I have no objection with the existence of this part. It would be better to use the Shia's own sources . Thanks.--Aminz 01:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

That's fine with me, but please don't remove it, before you provided sources that say the something more about their position.

[edit] Changing the structure of the article

I think we should add a part titled "Criticism of Tahrif". The criticial arguments can be then moved to there. For example, "According to some scholars on the field of Middle East studies, Muhammad's attachment to the Bible was doubtless born of a desire to give legitimacy to his own message, to stress the affinity of Islam to the two better established and more widely accepted monotheistic faiths, and most specifically to Judaism. The "religion of Abraham" motif served that end, as did the Qur'an extensive citation of biblical material and Muhammad's acceptance of Jews as "People of the Book". But if that was Muhammad's intent, the situation was quite different for later Muslims. Their problem was to separate and distinguish themselves from those other two groups, to disengage themselves, so to speak, from their prophetically bestowed biblical heritage." can be moved to that section.

How is that? --Aminz 06:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


The structure of the article is indeed now more becoming loose. How to resturcture it is a open question mark

To give you some background info about the strcuture:

The section "Qur'an lays basis" is to show which verses are basis for the doctrine of tahrif. If you look closely is does indeed not say that the text of the Hebrew Bible and the Gospel were altered (what some modern scholars say today, as you quote one), but that they were not followed (transgessed) or that their meaning was altered. The Qur'an even states that there were people of the Gospel in the time of Mohammed who had to follow what was revealed to them, so basically the Gospel had to be there in unaltered form at the time of Mohammed.

That why is stated in the section about Tahrif in the early days:
"Muslim scholars were making a distinction in the corruption of the text itself and the wrong interpretation of the text.
In the sense of originality or authenticity of the text itself, the majority of Muslim polemicists in the 8th and 9th century believed that the text of the previous scriptures, at least in the case of the Hebrew Bible, were not corupted."

The turning point for this belief is Ibn Hazm, who wrote an extensive work about the subject and said that the text itself was corrupted.

It is a fact that most issues raised by early Muslim polemists were drawn from earlier disputes. One example are the Arians, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arians. Especially ""Arian" as a polemical epithet" is a nice section for some historic background info

Greetings, and I value your remarks. Blubberbrein2 07:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Blubberbrein2, I also do believe that Qur'an does not make such an accusation. It seems that we both agree on a lot of points.
Regarding the structure of the article, I think we should have a part titled "criticism of the doctorine of Tahrif". There are already critical arguments in the distributed in the article. I think the reader will get a better idea if we could gather all the arguments together in one part. I'll think about a good structure. Good night, --Aminz 08:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV in first senteces.

At least. I haven't read over the article in its entirety I haven't the time. But the first few sentences seem quite accusatory. I do not remember it being that way the last time I viewed the article. Would someone look into it? Angrynight 02:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article POV

I am sorry that I didn't get to work on the article. The article is currently POV (which only says that not all views are represented there). As an example see: http://www.mostmerciful.com/quran-does-not-state-bible-is-true.htm

The problem is that I need to do research and find out other ideas. Thanks --Aminz 00:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, I don't saw any movement going, so please go ahead with your research!
Blubberbrein2 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Above mentioned article just verifies that the doctrine of tharif is established, because the author is saying that the biblical books are corrupted. From what I read from this URL is that there is a guy named Silas who says: "Many Muslims today say the Bible is corrupted. But there is nothing in the Quran that supports this. There is not one word in the Quran that teaches that the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians have been perverted by man. Instead, the opposite is true. The Quran supports the Bible."
This view is refuted by using quranic verses 5:12;13 en 11:110 and concludes that the Qur'an does indeed say the biblical accounts are corrupted (which I doubt in the case of 5:12;13 because 5:12;13 says that the Israelites just did not live according to their law)

In 6:63-6:86 it says (Hilali-Khan):

006:083 And that was Our Proof which We gave Ibrahim (Abraham) against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is AllWise, AllKnowing.
006:084 And We bestowed upon him Ishaque (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nuh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawud (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses), and Harun (Aaron). Thus do We reward the gooddoers.
006:085 And Zakariya (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and 'Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyas (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.
006:086 And Isma'il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas'a (Elisha), and Yunus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).

In 2:163 it syas:

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

In 4:163 it says (Hilali-Khan, quranbrowser.com):

Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW) as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and AlAsbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms).

So what is it saying? It says that God inspired many people, and most of them mentioned are from the Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his offspring. 'The tribes' are the 12 tribes of Israel (as maybe known their whoile history is recorded in Joshua, Book of Judges, Kings, Chronicles).
Other people include Noah (recorded in Genesis), Ishmael (recorded in Genesis), Jospeh (recorded in Genesis), Jona (recorded in the book of Jonah), Job (recorded in the book of Job), Lot (also mentioned in Genesis), Elias (recorded in the book of Kings), Zachariya (mentioned in some of the first chapters in the Gospels), Jesus (his life and teaching is recorded in the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles and the letters), David (mentioned in Chronicles, Kings, Psalms), Solomon (he wrote a lot of proverbs in Proverbs and has written Eccl.).
It does not really matter whether Moses has written whole of the 5 books. Apparently this is not possible, since his death is mentioned, so some later author had to add that, but it would be someone from 'the tribes', for example Joshua (recorded in the book of Joshua), the successor of Moses.
Furthermore it mentions other prophets "and that which the prophets received from their Lord.", so that could include some or all the prophetic books of the Old Testament (like Isaiah, Amos, Haggai and so on).

OK, having established that the Qur'an referres to many prophets that were inspired by God it continues and says that Mohammed was inspired by the same God! (4:163)
The problem with this statement is that the Qur'an and the several biblical books contradict one another, so one of the 2 (Qur'an vs. the many biblical books) has to be of another spirit then the Spirit of God.
And that is were the argument/doctrine of tahrif comes up: the books the Jews and Christians possess are corrupted because the Qur'an MUST be true because it is inspired by God (i.e. the word of Allah), so anything else is in error.
Blubberbrein2 08:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Blubberbrein2, Thanks for explanation. I didn't claim that what this website says is true. I just said that there are other views not covered in the article. I am not still sure about their ideas and to be honest have not done enough research. But as for now, since it is my fault of not doing research, I'll remove the POV tag. I am again sorry for being lazy. We should sometimes discuss about difference between Quran and Bible. Take care --Aminz 10:03, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing sections

I'm removing the section "Accusation of forgery polemical motif in pre-Islamic times" because 1 most of it refers to post-Islamic accusations and 2 the rest of it I do not think is factual at all. I've done some research on early Christian disputes and I've never encountered either side accusing the other of corrupting the text. I'm also removing from the section "Tahrif in the first centuries of Islam" mention of early Islamic concepts of textual corruption. I've never heard of this kind of tahrif in the first centuries, nor does this section mention a single Muslim who believed it. It's natural to think that because we currently believe something, the original founders of the faith believed it which is why the section was probably written in the first place. But, if someone can give a reference they may welcomingly rv my deletions. (BTW, I mention this so no one accuses me of a mass deletion.) --Ephilei 04:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Islam is 1400 years old at best. There is no such thing as 1st century tarif. The Greek Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls validate that Christ and the Apostles used these writings in the 1st century. The Catholic church still has the authoritative and complete model of the OT and NT in Greek. Since Jesus used them then tarif unintentially accused Jesus of using corrupt text. Tahrif is refuted on the bases that it contradicts Jesus and the Apostles and the Dea Sea Scrolls. Ultimately this means there is no need for the Quran. (Simonapro 22:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Is this even an article?

Both of these sections need to be deleted. Simply because they do not realte to the article. The article is about Tahrif Doctrine in Islam and those sections blatantly quote the bible and show the Christian/Jewish POV. Effectively turning the article into a comparative religion debate. These sections are:

Origin of tahrif

Qur'an and the claim of the corruption of the text itself'

I've edited the sections about the sunni islam shia islam. Whoever quoted Shmuel Bar on the sunni opinions on shiites tahriif, failed to mention that the author affirmed that the shiites believe that the Quran is missing some verses on the same page! So i added a sentence showing the author's opinion on this matter. Its from footnotes footnote #10. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.220.17.250 (talk) 22:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

It is important for NPOV that if the article states that Islam believes current Jewish and Christian beliefs are either distorted or based on falsification of Holy Texts then Jewish and Christian responses are given. That this includes relevant Old and New Testament passages as well as commentators would seem to be demonstrating key sources. Cosnahang 16:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Dates should be listed in the gregorian calender

Half the dates in this article are only given in the Islamic calendar. We are not an Islamic Encyclopedia, we should only be using the gregorian calendar.

[edit] Question on reference to Hebrew

"To translate a word that has two meanings in the meaning that is totally against the context. For example the Hebrew word ‘ابن’ was translated as ‘son’ whereas it also meant ‘servant’ and ‘slave’."

If the word in question is Hebrew, why is it written in Arabic script. Wouldn't it be more illustrative in the correct language? Then the pun would be more apparent . I would change it, but I don't know the word to which it refers. Off the top of my head, I don't know a word commonly used for both a son and a slave. 68.196.254.231 (talk) 01:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)