Talk:Tagalog grammar
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[edit] Ergativity
I'm making a report comparing the verbal systems of some languages, one of which is Tagalog, and all the information that I have found talks mainly about focused and non focused elements, but only here I have found this classification in ergative and absolutive cases. Are you really sure that it is so? Could you give some examples combining ergativity with focus?
Does Tagalog qualify as an Ergative-absolutive language ?--Jondel 05:07, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it does. But ergativity is different in every language. Looking at the examples that were provided in that article that was written by the late Larry Trask, here's how I'd change it to reflect Tagalog.
Gizona etorri da. "The man has arrived."
Gizonak mutila ikusi du. "The man saw the boy."
Dumating ang lalaki. "The man has arrived."
Nakita ng lalaki ang bata. "The man saw the boy."
'In Basque, gizon is "man", mutil is "boy", and a suffixed -a shows the definite form ("the"). You will notice that gizon is different depending on whether it is the subject of a transitive or intransitive verb. The first form is in the absolutive case (marked by a null morpheme) and the second form is in the ergative case (marked by a suffixed -k).
In Tagalog, lalaki is "man", "bata" is "boy" and an article preceding it which could mean either "the" or "a". You will notice that the word preceding lalaki is different depending on whether it is the subject of a transitive or intransitive verb. The first form is in the absolutive case (marked by the article ang) and the second form is in the ergative case (marked by the article ng).
There is a tendancy to say that Tagalog is usually spoken in the passive, but that analogy really isn't accurate.
--Chris 04:40, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks --Jondel 04:43, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Please see this note. Analyzing ergative features as passive voice was a common mistake in linguistics of old times, but it seems Tagalog is not ergative or accusative and there really isn't need to postulate a passive voice -- it's just a different type of language. --Pablo D. Flores 28 June 2005 11:22 (UTC)
"Ergative or genitive markers mark the object (usually indefinite) of an intransitive verb ..." Can anyone explain this sentence? I don't know anything about Tagalog (that's why I'm reading!) but for me an intransitive verb doesn't have an object. I'm also interested to know if indefinite and definite objects are treated differently, which is what happens in Hungarian. Gailtb 11:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I would appreciate if the philippine languages were described paying more attention to what you can really find in these languages. There may be philippine languages (Kapampangan) which show an Ergative-System, but as I see it, Tagalog is not among them. My opinion is, that it is better to describe what you can see - even if at the moment it doesn't make a lot of sense - than trying to match an already known grammatical system upon a languages which doesn't fit. Some of you might remember the mistakes we made trying to describe the Basque language as a Nominative-Accusative-language based on what we knew from Indo-European languages. Finally I agree with Pablo D. Flores. It's just a different type of language. 84.119.42.143 (talk) 19:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Future aspect?
My understanding was the aspect referred to in this article as future aspect should be more properly described as the contemplated aspect, which can translate into English using either the particles will or would. The difference between Tagalog contemplated and English future would then be that the speaker understands that there is a somewhat higher degree of uncertainty that the action will occur; or even that the action will not occur but is expressed to signify past intention. Consider the following sentence as an example of a non-future contemplated aspect using the particle sana:
Matutulog na sana ako, pero dumating ka. (I would have already gone to sleep, but you arrived.)
I'm a native English speaker, and am currently studying the language, so perhaps I've missed something. But if my impression is correct, should we change the article? - Ken A. 11/13/04 20:53
- I'm not comfortable with the word contemplated maybe unrealized would be better. In Waray-Waray this a contemplated or intentional aspect that refers to things that'll happen in the near future in addition to future/contemplated/unrealized aspect that Tagalog has. For now, I'd settle with future for the sake of simplicity unless you could propose something better.
- --Chris 16:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Bata
bata in tagalog is NOT boy. It is kid in English
- Tama ka nga riyan - alam ko na iyan. Pero sa tingin ko, it's pretty much the same thing. --Chris 16:17, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It cannot be the same thing - Batang babae (a child who is a girl) and Batang lalaki(a child who is a boy)
- I have the option of specifying the gender of the child. I chose not to in the Tagalog version but did in the English. It depended on the context and sure enough, context refered to a boy. It's like "kapatid" which means sibling but people frequently translate it as brother or sister depending on the context. It's really no big deal. --Chris 03:35, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Mistake in example?
Nakita ni Juan si Maria.
"John saw Maria."
Shouldn't this be "Maria saw John"?
Since "Nakita" is actor focus and "Maria" has the absolutive marker, doesn't that make her the person that saw? (I'm just learning) --Person1
- Hi there. No, it's definitely "John saw Maria."
- Nakita is not actor focus, it's object focus and it's in the potential mode. If it were just in the regular or indicative mode, it'd be kinita but it's not used in Tagalog anymore(?). A related language, Tausug, uses the indicative mode; in which case it'd be kīta' ( kīta' < *kiyita') .
- In any case, the actor focus equivalent of the above sentence would be: Nakakita si Juan kay Maria. Remember that in the actor focus, the personal objects take kay rather than ni.
- Hope this helps... --Chris 18:28, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- Thanks, but there's still something amiss. None of the object focuses, according to the focuses table in the article, give a "na" prefix. The only focus that does is the actor focus (type 3) in the "completed" sense. Is the table wrong or incomplete? --Person1
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- The conjugation chart includes only the most basic prefixes. I didn't include affixes from the potential mode like maka-, makapag-, na-, ma-CV-, etc. Maybe that's something I can put in when I have time. --Chris 06:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- OK, I've got it now, thanks. A particularly useful thing, if/when you have time, would be to add to the focus table any focuses used in the examples of the article. Currently the examples appear, to the non-tagalog speaker, to contradict the article. Thanks for writing the article. --Person1
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[edit] Correlation between markers and interrogatives
It might be useful to demonstrate somewhere on the page the correlation between markers and interrogatives. The markers in Tagalog have correlating interrogatives which make it easier for a student to remember which to use.
| Marker | Interrogative | |
|---|---|---|
| Locative | sa | saan |
| Subjective | ang | ano |
| Personal Subjective | si | sino |
| Personal Posessive | kay | kanino |
| Personal Posessive - object focus | ni | nino |
| - | nasa | nasaan |
| - | ba | bakit |
[edit] Verb conjugations
Just how many forms of verbs do we have?
And there are some modes not discussed. These verb forms have the same focus (object) but different meanings:
Pínatay/pinatáy ko siyá.
"I (intentionally) killed him."
Nápatay/napatáy ko siyá.
"I (accidentally) killed him."
I think there should be an "intent" mode?
And how to explain these cases? All have the same focus (akó) but the meanings are almost all different.
Akó ang pumatáy sa kaniyá.
"I am the one who killed him."
Akó ang nagpatáy sa kaniyá.
"I am the one who killed him."
Akó ang nakápatay sa kaniyá.
"I am the one who (unintentionally) killed him."
Akó ang nagpapátay sa kaniyá.
"I am the one who ordered him killed."
- Last example is different from [note the stress]:
Akó ang nagpapatáy sa kaniyá.
"I am the one who is killing him." (conjugate nagCV-, not conjugate nagpa-)
And taking the root word lúto which means to cook, we have the following dizzying array of conjugations. Is there any encyclopedic way of explaining all of these? And include the grammatical umlaut of changing /o/ to /u/, or /p/ and /b/ to /m/ when morphing.
maluto maluluto naluluto naluto lumuto luluto lumuluto lumuto magluto magluluto nagluluto nagluto mangluto mangluluto nangluluto nanluto lutuin lulutuin linuluto linuto iluto iluluto ilinuluto /iniluluto ilinuto/iniluto lutuan lulutuan linulutuan/nilulutuan linutuan/nilutuan ipaluto ipaluluto/ipapaluto ipinaluluto/ipinapaluto ipinaluto ipan[g]luto ipan[g]luluto/ipapan[g]luto ipinan[g]luluto/ipinapan[g]luto ipinan[g]luto ikaluto ikaluluto/ikakaluto ikinaluluto/ikinakaluto ikinaluto mapaluto mapaluluto/mapapaluto napaluluto/napapaluto napaluto magpaluto magpaluluto/magpapaluto nagpaluluto/nagpapaluto nagpaluto nakiluto nakiluluto/nakikiluto nakikipagluto nakipagluto makiluto makiluluto/makikiluto makikipagluto makipagluto ? pakiluto pikikiluto ? nakaluto nakaluluto/nakakaluto nakapagluluto/nakakapagluto nakapagluto makaluto makaluluto/makakaluto makapagluluto/makakapagluto makapagluto ? ? pakikipagluto ?
I'm not even sure if all of the forms above are even valid. =P
It's a wonder non-native speakers get to learn Tagalog at all. =) --seav 16:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
To the person who brought up the other mode... You are correct. For each Indicative/Intentional mode/mood verb form there is a Potentive/Circumstantial form most of which start with m-' or n-, e.g., maka-, naka- for actor focused forms, ma-/na- for the other foci. Joemaza 16:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] various comments about article
Came across the article on Tagalog grammar (and talk page) a few days ago, during another online “hunting session” for information on Tagalog grammar. First time that I read about Tagalog as an “absolutive-ergative” language. I think, however, that such a designation is not entirely appropriate. Hope these comments can be of help. [**Would also like to know comments of others regarding my own questions.]
Comment on "mag-ahit" and "umahit" - As a native-born Tagalog speaker, I haven't used or heard "umahit" to mean "to shave someone". There is a proper prefix for that: "mang-", therefore, to shave someone is "mang-ahit"! Mag-ahit ka ng balbas mong pagkahaba-haba na! = Shave your beard "that is so very long already"! I would say not all "um-" verbs have a "mag-" counterpart and vice versa. There is "umulan" but no "mag-ulan"; there is "magluto" but no "lumuto". There are the prefixes "i-" & suffix "-in" to fill the gaps. So, "to shave [the beard}" = "ahitin" and "to rain [on someone, something]" = "ulanin". Ahitin mo na nga iyang balbas mong pagkahaba-haba! = Will you shave that beard of yours that is so very long!Forming verbs from affixes and root words alone does not serve the purpose of giving factual examples. It can be tricky. [I am another commentator.]
I. References
Before anything else – the following article by Schachter explains the Tagalog focus system (which he terms “trigger” system) concisely:
Schachter, Paul. “Tagalog.” In International Encyclopedia of Linguistics, Vol. 4, pp. 123-126. Ed-in-chief: William Bright. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992.
I still recall the feeling of “eureka” I had when I first came across the article.
The following article:
Nikolaus P. Himmelmann. “Tagalog.” Artikel 135 in: Morphology: An International Handbook on Inflection and Word Formation, pp. 1473-1490. Edited by Geert Booij, Christian Lehmann, Joachim Mugdan & Stavros Skopeteas. Berlin: de Gruyter, 2005. [Manuscript turned in 9/1991!]
gives a detailed explanation of the Tagalog grammar, including the focus system, the use of specific markers and verb affixes (and semantic difference between “maN-” and “-um-”) and the relationship of focus to aspect and mood. Himmelmann’s analysis of Tagalog verb aspects is also different from the more common division into perfective, continuous, and contemplated. I downloaded the online version of this article in 2004 from http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/~himmelmann/HSKM135_hp.pdf. Unfortunately, I again tried to access the article online today, but failed. Apparently the article is no longer on the site, but is still listed in http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/~himmelmann/publications.html
II. Comments on absolutive-ergative classification of Tagalog
In the article, the noun markers are called “case markers” and are classified as common and personal markers. However, it seems inappropriate to call these “case markers” because the use of these markers is dependent on the focus of the sentence
First we consider the common markers. In the article they are listed as:
Absolutive Ergative Oblique
Common singular ang ng sa
Common plural ang mga ng mga sa mga
As mentioned in the article: “Absolutive (or nominative) markers mark the actor of an intransitive verb and the object of a transitive verb. Ergative (or genitive) markers mark the object (usually indefinite) of an intransitive verb and the actor of a transitive one. They also mark possession. Oblique markers are similar to prepositions in English. They mark things such as location and direction.”
However, some sample sentences will show that such is not the case:
(1) Bumunot ng baril ang magnanakaw.
The thief pulled (out) a gun.
(2) Nakita ng pulis ang magnanakaw.
A/The policeman/police officer saw the thief.
or: The thief was seen by a/the policeman.
(3) Binigyan ang magnanakaw ng babala.
The thief was given a warning.
(4) Hinanapan ang magnanakaw ng papeles.
(Identification) Papers were asked/demanded of the thief.
(5) Tumakbo ang magnanakaw.
The thief ran.
(6) Tinago ng magnanakaw ang baril.
The thief hid the gun.
(7) Naghanap ang mga pulis ng magnanakaw.
The police [plural] searched for a thief.
[“magnanakaw” indefinite in this sentence]
(8) Walang tumulong sa magnanakaw.
No one helped the thief.
(9) Hindi nagbigay ng tulong ang mga tao sa magnanakaw.
The people did not give aid to the thief.
(10) Nainis ang mga tao sa magnanakaw.
The people were annoyed at [or: disgusted with] the thief.
Consider the word “magnanakaw” (thief). Its situations in the above sentences are as follows:
Marker Focus or Not Semantic Role Verb
1 ang focus agent transitive
2 ang focus patient transitive
3 ang focus benefactive/dative transitive
4 ang focus oblique? locative? transitive
5 ang focus agent/experiencer intransitive
6 ng not focus agent transitive
7 ng not focus patient transitive
8 sa not focus patient transitive
9 sa not focus benefactive/dative transitive
10 sa not focus oblique
“Ang” can be the marker of the agent/actor of a transitive verb. It can also be the marker of arguments with other semantic roles. It appears then that neither the semantic role nor the transitivity of the verb predicts the marker for the noun argument (in this case, “magnanakaw”), but rather whether or not the argument is the focus. The use of “ng” and “sa” as genitive marker also conforms to this rule:
(11) Nahanap ang baril ng magnanakaw. [“baril” (gun) is focus]
The gun of the thief (or: thief’s gun) was found.
(12) Ang baril na nahanap ay sa magnanakaw. [“baril” is focus]
The gun that was found was the thief’s.
“Sa” is also used to mark location and direction.
Substituting “ang magnanakaw” with “ang mga magnanakaw” (thieves) in sentences (1)-(5), “ng magnanakaw” with “ng mga magnanakaw” in sentences (6)-(7), and “sa magnanakaw” with “sa mga magnanakaw” in sentences (8)-(10) leads to the same conclusion. Thus, it is better to regard “ang” and “ang mga” as “focus markers” and the rest as “non-focus markers”.
Now we analyze the personal markers. In the article, the personal markers are categorized as follows:
Absolutive Ergative Oblique
Personal singular si ni kay
Personal plural sina nina kina
Let us assume that the “thief” in the previous examples is named Pedro. We can substitute “si Pedro” for “ang magnanakaw” in sentences (1)-(5), “ni Pedro” for “ng magnanakaw” in sentences (6)-(7), and “kay Pedro” for “sa magnanakaw” in sentences (8)-(10).
(13) Bumunot ng baril si Pedro.
Pedro pulled (out) a gun.
(14) Nakita ng pulis si Pedro.
A/The policeman/police officer saw Pedro.
or: Pedro was seen by a/the policeman.
(15) Binigyan si Pedro ng babala.
Pedro was given a warning.
(16) Hinanapan si Pedro ng papeles.
(Identification) Papers were asked/demanded of Pedro.
(17) Tumakbo si Pedro.
Pedro ran.
(18) Tinago ni Pedro ang baril.
Pedro hid the gun.
(19) *Naghanap ang mga pulis ni Pedro.
(The police searched for Pedro.)
(20) Walang tumulong kay Pedro.
No one helped Pedro.
(21) Hindi nagbigay ng tulong ang mga tao kay Pedro.
The people did not give aid to Pedro.
(22) Nainis ang mga tao kay Pedro.
The people were annoyed at [or: disgusted with] Pedro.
The sentences are all fine, except (19), which is the supposed equivalent of sentence (7). Sentence (19) in itself is grammatically correct, but it is “incorrect” in the sense that it is not the intended statement. “Naghanap ang mga pulis ni Pedro” means “Pedro’s policemen searched (for someone/something)”. The “ni” in this sentence is understood as a genitive marker. Consider sentence (7) again:
(7) Naghanap ang mga pulis ng magnanakaw.
The police searched for a thief
In reality, “ng” in this sentence can be a genitive marker, so another interpretation of (7) could be “The thief’s policemen searched (for …)”. There is nothing against this interpretation on grounds of grammar. It is just that the situation is “less plausible” (policemen working under the thief) – which means the reason is not grammar but semantics. So the interpretation of “ng” as a patient marker is preferred, and “The police searched for a thief” would also be the “natural” or “automatic” translation most people would give for the sentence. (Consider “Naghanap ang mga pulis ng sarhento” which could be “The police looked for a sergeant” or “The sergeant’s policemen looked for…”)
We see that “magnanakaw” preceded by “ng” becomes an indefinite argument – a thief, and not the thief in our “storyline”. By analogy, “ni Pedro” has to be interpreted as “a” Pedro, but this is impossible, because Pedro is a definite person. The alternative is to consider “ni” a genitive marker, so “ni Pedro” is understood to mean “of Pedro”, which makes the sentence sensible. To express the sense of “The police searched for Pedro” the marker used is “kay”:
(23) Naghanap ang mga pulis kay Pedro. [with “pulis” as agent focus]
This can also be restated as:
(24) Hinanap ng mga pulis si Pedro. [with “Pedro” as patient focus]
To express “The police searched for a Pedro [i.e., someone named Pedro], the common marker “ng” is used:
(25) Naghanap ang mga pulis ng Pedro.
In this case, “Pedro” functions like an indefinite common noun.
“Ni” can only mark the agent of a transitive verb, as in (18). Although “ni” could properly be considered an ergative marker, “si” could not be considered an absolutive marker (because it can also mark the agent of a transitive verb: sentence (13)), and “kay” is not simply an oblique marker (because it can also mark the patient: sentence (23)). Therefore the categories of “absolutive”, “ergative”, and “oblique” are also not appropriate for the personal markers. Since “si” can mark the agent of a transitive verb and the patient of a transitive verb, the pronouns also do not conform to a tripartite system. [See wikipedia article on tripartite language.] They also do not seem to fit any language type of Milewski’s typology. [wikipedia article on morphosyntactic alignment]
Now, the personal pronouns. In the article, the personal pronouns are classified as follows:
Absolutive Ergative Oblique
1st person singular ako ko akin
1st person dual kata/kita kita kanita
2nd person singular ikaw (ka) mo iyo
3rd person singular siya niya kaniya
1st per plur inclusive tayo natin atin
1st per plur exclusive kami namin amin
2nd person plural kayo ninyo inyo
3rd person plural sila nila kanila
As in the case of the markers, the use of personal pronouns is also tied to the system of focus. To avoid confusion, we consider sentences with only one personal pronoun. For illustration, we use the 3rd person singular pronouns:
(26) Nagturo siya ng matematika sa mga mag-aaral.
[“siya” is focus, agent; transitive verb]
He/She taught students/the students mathematics.
(27) Pinuri siya ng mga mag-aaral.
[“siya” is focus, patient; transitive]
He/She was praised by students/the students.
[or: Students/The students praised him/her.]
(28) Binigyan siya ng mga mag-aaral ng regalo.
[“siya” is focus, benefactive (dative); transitive]
Students/The students gave him/her a gift.
[or: A gift was given to him/her by students/the students.
He/She was given a gift by students/the students.]
(29) Kinunan siya ng litrato. [“siya” is focus, oblique?; transitive]
A picture of him/her was taken.
(30) Umiyak siya. [“siya” is focus, agent/experiencer; intransitive]
He/She cried.
(31) Tinuruan niya ang mga mag-aaral ng matematika.
[“niya” is agent, not focus; transitive]
He/She taught students/the students mathematics.
(32) Nagpasalamat sa kaniya ang mga mag-aaral.
[“kaniya” is patient, not focus; transitive]
The students thanked him/her.
(33) Iniabot sa kaniya ang regalo.
[“kaniya” is benefactive, not focus; transitive]
The gift was handed to him/her.
(34) Mahalaga sa kaniya ang pagtuturo.
[“kaniya” is oblique argument, not focus]
Teaching is important to him/her.
The marker “sa” is obligatory before “kaniya” (and similarly, “akin”, “amin”, “iyo”, etc.) when it is not used as a genitive. “Sa” is optional in genitive constructions; for example “kaniya ito” and “sa kaniya ito” both mean “this is his/hers”.
Just like the markers, the personal pronouns are better classified as “focus” or “non-focus” rather than “absolutive”, “ergative”, and “oblique”. This also applies to the demonstrative pronouns.
III. Comments on shift of focus
Analyzing (7), (19), and (23), an interesting feature of common nouns can be discerned. Sentence (23) shows that for a proper noun (which is considered a definite argument), the noun can function as patient even with an agent focus. However, with a common noun, the noun cannot be definite and at the same time act as patient, in the presence of an agent focus. Consider:
(35) *Naghanap ang mga pulis sa magnanakaw.
In this sentence, “pulis” is the agent of the verb. The presence of “ang mga” indicates that “pulis” is the focus, while the presence of “sa” in this sentence indicates that “magnanakaw” refers to a definite thief. The sentence is incorrect, and has to be restated as:
(36) Hinanap ng mga pulis ang magnanakaw.
Police/The police searched for the thief.
Observation 1: If a common noun acts as patient, definiteness shifts the focus to the patient.
The nature of the verb also affects the focus of the sentence. Consider:
(37) Tumingin ako sa kaniya. [“ako” is agent focus; “kaniya” is patient] (38) Tiningnan ko siya. [“siya” is patient focus; “ko” is agent]
Both sentences mean “I looked at him/her.” In contrast:
(39) Nakita ko siya. [“siya” is patient focus; “ko” is agent]
I saw him/her.
Sentence (39) cannot be restated with the agent (“I”) as the focus. It can only be paraphrased in a roundabout way, like:
(40) Ako ang nakakita sa kaniya.
I was the one who saw him/her.
Similarly:
(41) Nakinig ako sa kaniya. (42) Pinakinggan ko siya.
Both mean “I listened to him/her.” In contrast:
(43) Narinig ko siya.
I heard him/her.
The verbs “look (at)” and “listen (to)” are volitional verbs, whereas “see” and “hear” are non-volitional verbs. Observation 2: In a sentence with an agent, patient, and non-volitional verb, focus shifts to the patient.
The two statements in bold are my personal observations. [**Can anyone confirm or negate them?]
IV. Comments on Interrogative Words
Two more interrogative words can be added to the list in the article. These are: tig-ilan – means “how many each”, pang-ilan – equivalent to Latin “quotus”
(44) Tig-ilan ang nakuha nila?
How many each did they get?
or: How many did each one of them get?
The answer is supposed to be a cardinal number with the first syllable reduplicated and also prefixed with “tig-”:
(45) Tig-ilan ang nakuha nila?
(46) Tig-lilima.
(They got) Five each.
The plural form “tig-iilan” is also used.
“Pang-ilan” is used when the expected answer is an ordinal number. It is used in the trick question:
(47) Pang-ilang presidente ng Pilipinas si ____________?
One is supposed to translate the question into English. The difficulty lies in the fact that “pang-ilan” has no exact English equivalent. The sentence could be translated in a roundabout way. For example:
(48) Pang-ilang presidente ng Pilipinas si Manuel Quezon?
What is the number of Manuel Quezon in the order of Philippine
presidents?
[** Perhaps someone could think of a better translation?]
(49) Pangalawa.
Second. [i.e., He was the second President of the Philippines.]
(50) Pang-ilan siya sa pila?
What is his/her place/position in line?
(51) Pang-apat.
(He/She is) Fourth (in line).
(52) Pang-ilan siya sa karera?
What is his/her place in the race?
or: What place did he/she win in the race?
(53) Pangatlo.
(He/She took/won) Third (place).
V. Comments about additional sections
1. Some description of other pronouns is also needed. These include “mismo” (intensive pronoun), “bawat” (each, every), “pareho” (both).
2. section on numerals: cardinal, ordinal, distributives (“tig-iisa”, etc.), multiplicatives (“doble”, etc.)
3. section on nouns (existing section on Nouns discusses only the markers)
202.81.182.139 18:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)dnong
- I wish I had the time to read all your comments and improve the article based on that. I do want to address the absolutive-ergative thing. The "trigger system" stuff is outdated terminology and the current usage among linguists like Reid and Rubino is the absolutive/ergative distinction. So I think I'll leave that part intact. I'll address your comments hopefully when school's done next month. --Chris S. 04:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I also tried searching the net for other discussions of the absolutive/ergative issue. The content of a number of sites/pages were just lifted from wikipedia articles. As for the others, they just left me more confused. (One site, for example, http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/afla/AbAldridge.htm, has a sample sentence "Ano ang bumabasa si Maria?" which apparently is not a typographical error.) Really looking forward to your comments (once you're free of course). 202.124.159.175 14:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)dnong
- Oh, no. That's definitely wrong. --Chris S. 19:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
I just want to share how some example Tagalog sentences in this article are actually pronounced in spoken Tagalog. (I'm a native Tagalog speaker, by the way.)
Written --> Spoken
Pupuntá sina Elena at Roberto sa bahay ni Miguél. --> Púpunta sina Elena at Roberto sa bahay ni Miguél.
"Elena and Roberto will go to Miguel's house."
Nasaán ang mga libró? --> Násaan ang mga libró?
"Where are the books?"
Ibibigáy ko [itó] sa kaniyá. --> Ibíbigáy ko [itó] sa kanyá
"I will give it [or this] to her."
Walâ táyong bigás. --> Walá tayong bigás.
"We (you and I) don't have rice."
Walâ kamíng bigás. --> Walá kamíng bigás.
"We (someone else and I, but not you) don't have rice."
Bibigyán kitá ng pera. --> Bíbigyan kitá ng pera.
"I will give you money."
Noóng batà pa akó, umiinóm akó ng kapé. --> Noóng bata pa akó, umiinóm [or umíinóm] akó ng kapé.
When I was a child, I used to drink coffee.
- Perryv 11:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Perry. The accents are correct as they are. With pupunta, ibibigay, and bibigyan you are marking the secondary stress. The accents mark only primary stress which can only occur on the penult or final syllable. As for walâ, it is correct although Manileños tend to pronounce it as walá in a sentence while walâ at the end of a sentence. The same with batà. I suggest reading the section on phonology at the Tagalog language article. Thanks. And yes, I'm a native speaker who wrote this article. --Chris S. 02:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I am another native-born Tagalog speaker. In the cases of pupunta and nasaan, it seems the secondary stress is stronger than the primary stress, if that ever happens. In earlier grammars, we learned this as the "mariin" stress. Other examples are: táhanan; líbingan.
- Without getting into metrical theory, many roots have primary stress on the penult (syllable before last) and the ultima (last syllable). As a consequence, when a root is suffixed, that stress will shift over one syllable to the right to maintain the same stress pattern, again to the right of the syllable. Secondary stresses, do occur; however, you may be noticing the higher pitch and not the actual vocal stress. Joemaza (talk) 01:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
-
- In regards to the other stresses that you mention, please, explain those terms as I am not familiar with that terminology.
[edit] An -in/-an example
The following example is quite easy to understand:
- Hanapan mo ako - find [one] for me!
- Hanapin mo ako - find me!
But I don't know exactly where to put it. A few more examples like this would help to explain the difference between the types of focus. Gronky 14:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] not ergative-absolutive
I came across this page while researching materials for a grammatical sketch of Tagalog. I'm already using Schachter's rather longer summary The World's Major Languages (ed. by Bernard Comrie, 1990, Oxford University Press; pp 936-958), Schachter & Otanes, Ramos and Bautista, and other sources. dnong (I think that's the ID) wrote: First time that I read about Tagalog as an “absolutive-ergative” language. I think, however, that such a designation is not entirely appropriate. I agree. Thnidu 20:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- My two cents: When doing a cross linguistic analysis, you will find that Maya grammar has a pronoun set similar to that of the Philippine languages. In addition, their use is similar: the "ko" set is used as the actor/subject marker AND as a possessive. And, Maya is designated as 'Ergative-Absolutive". Joemaza 17:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Karagdagang paglilinaw
Sa bahagi ng 'Locative', 'di ba ang "Binilhán ng lalaki ng saging ang tindahan" sa Ingles ay "The man bought bananas for the store" at hindi "...at the store"? Sa palagay ko'y may kailangang baguhin sa pangungusap na ginamit sa halimbawa. Sinomang nais magsagawa ng isang pagpuna sa nasabi ko ay maaaring magsulat sa ibaba. Salamat. Ü Zxyggrhyn 14:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- To open this discussion up to those who do not understand Tagalog, but would like to participate:
- In the 'Locative' section, isn't "Binilhán ng lalaki ng saging ang tindahan", "The man bought bananas for the store" in English and not "...at the store"? I think it necessary to update the sentence used as an example. Whoever wants to add a comment (or criticism) regarding what I've said, should write below. (This is a rather rough translation)
- Response: According to the markers, it is correct. Binilhan is in the 'Locative' focus; the 'location' must be marked with 'ang'. But, I do see where could be some confusion, maybe a simpler sentence where there is only one oblique argument would suffice: Pinuntahan ng lalaki ang tindahan, The man went to the store. If it were inflected for such a meaning (it's rather absurd in some sense, but plausible): Ibinili ng lakaki ng saging ang tindahan., The man bought bananas (the bananas) for the store.
- Joemaza 17:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Enclitic Particles
Tagalog particles are independent at least in writing. A good example, ba.
Pumunta ba kayo?
...BUT...
Pumunta ka ba?
If it were enclitic, then neither ka nor other monosyllabic pronouns could intervene, yet they do.
- Joemaza 17:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Conjugation Chart
I see superscript numerals, but I don't see where they refer. After a second look, I finally get what's going on. But, just to be sure, could they link to some reference or footnote?
- Joemaza 17:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Joe! It just means it's the first type, second type, third, etc. Should it be something different? --Chris S. 18:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
