User talk:Tactik

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Welcome!

Hello Tactik, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!  Themindset 16:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

  • I could not find any information about your dnb/jungle releases on the net, can you give me some links on my talk page? Themindset 16:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] thanks for the adhom

gimme a break. i'm about to post a clip with MC conrad talking about drum and bass from new years day 1994.. jungle is part of drum and bass history, not the other way around, not need to call me a twit because i reverted your inaccurated edit. i didn't call you names for reverting my edits of the jungle page

--Frantik 06:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

so we have dialogue at last... i'm sure mc conrad (with his almost purely 'intelligent d&b' viewpoints) will shed amazing light on the subject of jungle and what it means. If LTJ made comment on the subject I'd be actually interested.
just explain one thing to me...'Neurofunk' (some undoubtedly americanised half-a-sub-genre of d&b) get's it's own page... with two lines in it, wtf?
the 'twit' remark is because you fucked with a whole page (nowhere near a stub) of information and dumped it into the drum&bass article whilst discussion is still ongoing. You up-ed the ante.
tactik 07:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
PS: i dare you to get up at your next gig and ask the punters what they think. Or ask Greg (get him to send me an email with his response). I think perhaps a chorus of boo's will settle this.
the truth isn't based on a majority vote.. most people out in the club today have no idea of the origins of dnb and bass. music from 1993, 1994, 1995 is my favorite genre. i listen to it extensively. "jungle" is not the precursor to drum and bass, darkcore is. intelligent and jungle existed side by side at this time.. as time went on more styles formed that incorporated the same breaks and bass. at this time the all encompasing genre became known as drum and bass. Ragga continued on the same path as the rest of drum and bass, getting faster and more simplified. 1997 ragga sounds a lot like 1997 hardstep with jamacians. Ragga then saw a counter movement around the turn of the century with a lot more emphasis on drums, but it is still drum and bass as much as drumfunk is drum and bass. neither one sounds like the shitty twostep sound, but they're still dnb Frantik 07:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
oh and you can see on the talk page i said to merge neurofunk with techstep so i dunno why you're mentioning it to me Frantik 07:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

what? ahh.. my mistake.. i meant that Darkstep has it's own stub of a page (not neurofunk.. which also has it's own page).

anyway, So you admit that jungle + intelligent were separate... BEFORE the umbrella term of d&b got smothered into place. they're different styles.. therefore needing separate pages right? and wtf is this about darkcore.. load of bollocks if you ask me. early jungle was not overly dark? in fact it was sometimes stupidly happy! anyway, hit me up on MSN to chat about this, i like Australians viewpoints. donationbased at hotmail dot com OR 200663115 (ICQ)tactik 07:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
and wtf is this about darkcore.. load of bollocks if you ask me.
no offense, but if you don't know about darkcore, then you don't have any business talking about the history of jungle and drum and bass. the stupidly happy stuff is what prompted darkcore (this is mentioned in the dnb page). darkcore really emphasized atmospherics and deep vibes as opposed to retarded kids shit. Weird Energy (Hells Bells Mix) by DJ Hype from 1993 is a good example of this sound.
ragga jungle and intelligent drum evolved around the same time (1994-95), but all of the elements of both ragga and intelligent can fit under the bigger heading of what is today known as drum and bass. there is no ragga jungle track that doesn't fit the description of drum and bass, so it is dnb. I think the jungle music page should either be a redirect to dnb or a disambiguation page to either ragga or dnb. Frantik 08:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
ps:i encourage you to check out this mix i put together which has the hype tune i mentioned and other darkcore tracks. The mix incorporates mostly darkcore and intelligent, though there is a bit of ragga in there too. I think it really shows how it is all just one genre. the link has a tracklist which includes the year the track was released as well

so let me get this straight... you say that this is a mix of 'intelligent d&b and darkcore'... but in the first tune the vocals say OVER AND OVER "You can't stop Jungle...Jungle will never die" etc..etc... this isn't darkcore or intelligent d&b it's JUNGLE. That's a fuckin classic mate. whats yr ICQ/MSN. this is gonna be jokes bruv.. jokes. AND... on my History of Jungle... whilst you were undoubtedly sitting in Perth listening to nirvana or the black crowes in the early 90's I was in South London (Peckham - right next to Brixton), LISTENING TO JUNGLE. I never once heard the term darkcore. Not once. tactik 08:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC) btw... nice jungle mix... 90% of the tunes so far are pure jungle. A couple are old jungle-tech, one tune has a darker more minimal edge (is this darkcore?) DO you people mean darkside??? This was a term, referred to (normally) as 'Darkside Jungle' back then, which referred to darker, more minimal jungle.


yes there are a few ragga jungle tracks from kemet. it doesn't make the entire mix ragga though. the entire mix falls under dnb imo.
re: darkside, yes thats another name for it, though darkcore is the more popular term.
Frantik 10:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I repeat, spending my youth in London listening to jungle in the early 90's, making my first jungle AND drum&bass tracks in 1996 and having been putting on Jungle and drum&bass raves here in Melbourne since I was 19. I have NEVER heard the term Darkcore. I do know and remember the term Darkside Jungle... however... from a little bit of research I have found out that Darkcore may not be the same at all. There is apparently supposed to be a LOT of distortion, sampled Screams and other horror movie samples. Your mix may only contain one Darkcore track (somewhere near the start). The rest is Jungle (which is Ragga-Jungle without the ragga bits), Ragga-Jungle, a few tunes of Darkside Jungle and ends with Intelligent jungle/d&b. (nice mix btw... is it vinyl or mp3?)tactik 11:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your vandalism

Advice: Please stop targeting one or more users pages or talk pages for abuse or insults, unwarranted doctoring or blanking. It can be seen as vandalism and may get you blocked from editing Wikipedia. [1] Themindset 05:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Get a grip, vandalism has nothing to do with talk pages, it refers to outlandish encyclopaedic editing (like what you and Frantik do). You guys have been deleting and editing a page other people have spent time writing. If anyone is up for vandalism threats, it's you guys.
I guess I'm sorry... it IS my fault... I just can't handle ignorant morons.
What's your excuse for being an up-tight, control freak?
You guys started this edit-war (Frantik removing the whole article and You deleting/re-directing pages when there is clearly NO consensus).
Look... you may well have put on some gigs... that's cool. But the reality is that I was THERE , in South London (one suburb over from Brixton) listening to Jungle and then later, drum&bass. Where the hell were you? How old are you? If you weren't such a chump you'd accept my offer of a chat on MSN or ICQ instead of hiding.
if you agree with Frantiks deletion and that kind of tactic, then I guess it shows Your Wikipedia-morals as the farce that they are.
I'm all for creating a useful, informative base for d&b and jungle, (i MUST re-iterate the huge problems and out-right mistakes in yr d&b article - appalling), but I will NOT accept some random Canadians INCORRECT viewpoint on something I personally experienced. Would you accept my incorrect views on Ice Hockey if you'd been a devoted player and fan since yr childhood in Canada?
If someones acts like an ass... I will call them an ass.
You, are an ass.

tactik 07:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Dude, you are deleting people's comments in talk pages, and changing them to suit your needs. That is beyond not cool. Creating sockpuppets is even worse, (note: anyone with admin can see it) and it totally discredits you. If you can't behave with basic civility, even in disagreement, you may not find the wikipedia community to be very tolerant of such behaviour. Good night, and good luck. Themindset 07:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I edited out some ancient posts, some bollocks from the MERGE POLL bit (as it was extraneous) and formatted some text?
Basic Civility... man, yr one messed up mother. You fuck with my contributions, you delete others work and then you dare talk to me of civility.
What I wonder is if, when you find out that there are no sockpuppets, i get an apology? of course I won';t hold my breath for an arrogant, ignorant fool, that can never admit defeat.
I can't wait til admin see's what YOU'VE been up to. My conscience is clear.tactik 08:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, I'm trying to help you here, if you want people to take you seriously you can't insult other users like this. You also cannot remove people's comments on talk pages, that is a big no-no. I really wish you luck, but you are being abusive. Many of us have talked about the merge and settled it, you cannot be a "consensus-of-one". Themindset 09:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
tacktik; while i'm in total agreeance with you on the seperation of the jungle and dnb articles and that there isn't enough knowledge from the uk scene being imparted on both articles right now, you have to learn to stick with the rules of wikipedia else no-one will take you seriously. personal attacks and the like are a big nono, they will get you in shit big time with admins. also, you have to stick with formatting and npov guidelines when editing. the mess the jungle article was in before was one of the reasons people just said "ach, fuck it, lets redirect to dnb" in the first place, so we have to clean and beefen up the article to make it respectable enough for someone to casually come along and not think "wtf?". i'm not saying this to get at you, i'd just really like to help you get started on the right foot with wikipedia. --MilkMiruku 22:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Constructive suggestion alert: How about starting an article called Oldschool jungle? I think that is exactly what you guys are talking about, and you can go to town on that article. (ps - I consider DJ Hype to be an authority on Jungle Drum and Bass (and that's what he calls it), so lets just agree to disagree, and allow the naming contention to reside within the DnB article, while you guys can port all the info that you consider important into Oldschool jungle. Peace. Themindset 00:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
i don't think that's the best course of action, simply because that term isn't one that's activly been used to refer to the music. how about this suggestion? it's basically the same as the one you've just mentioned albeit using the jungle music article itself (as that would be the proper term). --MilkMiruku 22:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
but that's the proplem, it is not considered the "proper" term, jungle is considered (by authorities of the genre) to be synonymous with DnB. Oldschool jungle is definitely an actively used term. Themindset 07:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I am really at a loss to understand all this... I contribute to, write and then re-write an article (made up of contributions from at least half a dozen people)... then a self-proclaimed evangelical Wikipedian DELETES it because of their POINT OF VIEW... not because of any actual facts or reached consensus.
I thought THAT was the HUGE no-no on here?!
You say it was sorted, Mindset... post a link to it please.
Despite what you may believe, this is not merely a POV angle for me, I was there. Do I have to call up Blackmarket Records, or Mr Smalls from Formation to finally get some concessions from these Wiki-heads?
Why is it so hard for Mindset to accept the possibility that he/she might just be wrong?
I've placed numerous offers of a real-time discussion on this subject on multiple talk/discussion pages but neither Frantik nor Mindset have seen fit to get stuck in and actually discuss this with me, it has been bear-baiting and sneaky redirects from them on ALL these talk pages.
Which is worse (in your Wikipedia-minds), being slandered and accused of lying, cheating and 'sockpuppeteerism' without proof OR being called a Twit because you DID delete other peoples articles.
I still haven't got my apology for that, btw.
Milk, why do you talk to me of the rules... If the rules allow what Frantik and Themindset have done, yet reprimand me for standing up to them... then there's no point this continuing.
Mindset, I'm trying to create information here, why are you applying reductionist thinking to an encyclopaedia? (and DJ Hype got laughed at when he came out with the 'jungle drum & bass' thing, how do I know... I remember it actually happening).
A simple solution may be to have a note at the start of the drum&bass page stating that some people refer to drum&bass as jungle AND on the jungle page make a reference as well.
School's out.

tactik 03:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

and just in case yr wondering about the 'ass=mindset' referrals, click on the link... it points to donkeys (that's offensive?).tactik 04:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Dude, I wish you'd go back and read the talk pages. You would see that we had a very long period of discussion and debate about this, and then we finally did it... and then you show up. We had a merge note at the top of each article for months, we had a straw poll, we had debate, and then debate died down; and then the merge was done. I was actually undecided for a while (in fact, I was quite torn by the decision), and I personally contributed quite a bit to the jungle article myself - why do you have to paint me as your opponent here, cause I'm not. There's no need for your hostility, relax. And to answer your question, I don't use IM and discussion pages are where discussion is meant to take place (it provides a record of the decision making process). I encourage you to go back and read all of Talk:Jungle music & Talk:Drum and bass - you will see that the merge decision was not done on a whim, we all spent a lot of time and effort to discuss it, and although there was a vocal minority opposed, we did it after several months. (PS - I have to consider DJ Hype, Bad Company, and Digital to be authorities on this subject.) Themindset 17:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I read the talk pages... I joined, I debated. I gave you desriptive reasons for differences in the genres, I can give you more. There was no consensus in December, there was no consensus in January and there is no consensus today. Obviously.
If you went back and read the talk/discussion pages yourself you can see EXACTLY where it all went pear-shaped (hi Frantik!) - he proposes an info-merge and then just goes ahead and deletes the page before comment is made. We've been trying to clean this up ever since.
Sorry to say bruv, and I mean no dis-respect to your contribution, but when I arrived the Jungle article was really bad (I can see the reason you may have wanted to merge it)... A lot of the info in it was incorrect, badly written and really shallow in terms of research and description. I have a wealth of info to add to the article as do others (more and more people are coming forward with research).
Let's just put this forward - You agree that there is warrant for an 'Old School Jungle' page but not a 'Jungle' page... right?
How about recognising that what YOU call 'old school jungle', to others (who were there) it was always Jungle.
the discussion pages don't work well... the dialogue is splintered, people hide behind random, baseless accusations and then expect to be treated politely.
tactik 12:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
How about recognising that what YOU call 'old school jungle', to others (who were there) it was always Jungle. I do recognize that some consider Jungle to mean Old School Jungle, how could I not? The fact remains, that not only those "who were there", but those who were making it consider Jungle & DnB to mean the same thing. Peace. Themindset 18:34, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I guess I just have to put your POV in perspective, you weren't there. You obviously came late to the game and are basing your POV on Hype ONCE calling his music jungle drum & bass, no-one else ever called their tunes that. It's like someone saying they play soul rnb, doesn't mean that their trying to say that they're the same music, in fact someone putting two genres together means that they recognise the TWO genres and are trying to fit into the crossover point.
BTW, I do not for one second believe your previous assertion that Bad Company and Aquasky told you that they thought Jungle and d&b to be the same thing... I'm going to fire off a few emails to verify this. What was your party name, that they played at in Canada (so I can refresh their memories). Easy.tactik 14:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The party was called What?! and was in January 2002 in Montreal, and it was Fresh & Vegas playing as Bad Company, and they played in Ottawa the Monday before. The other half of Bad Company was in Australia at the time. Themindset 17:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC) [2] [3] [4]
Sweet, will let you know when they get back to my UK sister-company. tactik 13:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR broken.

Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Themindset 08:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

doesn't break the 3RRR if it's to revert from simple vandalism. Which is what you've been doing to our work. tactik 15:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I AM ON YOUR SIDE

Tactik:

I agree with you that there should be a seperate heading for Jungle and Drum n Bass - I was very suprised when I typed in Jungle music that I got the Drum n Bass page. I have masses of information to prove that it should happen, as you will have. It seems you have been fighting the people with the opinion that the merge is a good idea, well, I have been commanded by fellow Junglists to stamp out the confusion. I actually did my final project on the history of Jungle and Drum n Bass, producing a 13,000 word analysis and got a 2:1 ;-) Maybe it's time I got out my first weapon?

Please tell me your email address so we can discuss further.

i'd urge you to register and use a wikipedia user account if you wish to have credability with other users. any contributions you can add to the jungle/dnb articles would be great, although it's probably not doing that atm while some still think it's better to merge the two. --MilkMiruku 22:30, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
You can all get in touch with me at tactik at acousticweaponry dot com OR icq:200663115 - I'd love to read yr work. There's still interesting areas in the history that I'm discovering to this day.
What we're up against here is apparently more a North American-based viewpoint than a European or Asia/Pacific one. I don't know how it evolved, there are some infrequent/random events that were highly publicised (Hype's genre mash-ups etc..) which may have led them to come to the conclusion that is being flouted here. We'll have to see ;P
tactik 11:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Munt

I've nominated this article for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Munt (alternate meaning) as it did not provide sources. - brenneman{T}{L} 13:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Getting there chief... only just started. check sites like muntersguide.co.uk or google it with a reference to rave, electronic music, drugs... tactik 13:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if it seems harsh, but seventeen times out of twenty no matter how long I wait, nothing happens to improve the article. I know that stinks or the last three guys, but AfD lasts five days at least, and articles with sources rarely get deleted. A tip: use footnotes instead of inline references, that always impresses the punters. - brenneman{T}{L} 13:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
No worries, mate! I will try and get on it (it's late here in Australia atm.. so nothing more tonight). I'll try and track down published mixmag articles that use the word and post/link it. Give me a week?tactik 13:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The most likely thing that can happen now is that a bunch of people jump in and improve the article. If it gets deleted for lack of sources I'll move it into your user space so that you can try to work on it there. That would just mean that it wan't visable for a while. Articles don't actually get "deleted" in the normal sense of the word, just hidden. There's no rush. - brenneman{T}{L} 14:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
10-4 tactik 14:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] jungle music

Great dancing pigs, that a messy debate! Just skimming it has given me a head-ache.

  • I'm not qualified to make any judgement regarding the actual merits of any of the arguments. I love my Specials and The Beat but the nitty gritty of any genre is outside my zone. I'd think that a request for comment might be a good idea, or finding another adminstrator who knows more about the subject.
  • I'd note that if I had just stumbled upon the Jungle Music (capital M) article I'd have tried to move it to Jungle music (lowercase m). I'd have then seen that that article already existed and have given you a finger waving about making a second article rather than working out the issue on the existing article. I see that this has been hard-fought and all, but forking articles is bad. I'm a bit suprised that no one has noticed.
  • A merge "against someone's will" is always contentious. It's also very hard to determine what the consensus actually is on Talk:Drum and bass. Some options are making the article really good in your user space, or expanding the section (with impeccable referencing!) in the bodyof the D&B article until it's obvious that it should be split off.

What I'd suggest now is that you let me move the capital M article into your user space, you polish it until it bloody well shines there, and then propose unmerging again on the DB page. The keys are references that explicitly use the words "jungle music". How does that sound?
brenneman{T}{L} 04:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

HAHA.. yes it is an absolute mess... it was never a discussion.
CHeers for the pointers.. I guess I jsut don't want to spend all teh time writing it up only to have some guys from North America redirecting/deleting the article based on their own POV. It's a huge issues for me because I was there, in London, listening to jungle in the early 90's and I know what went on there. Unlike some of these guys...
Anyway, thanks again mate!
tactik 05:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Edisdon and "Hello"

Ahoy! Please do not just delete material in an article with which you disagree calling it "untrue" if it is sourced from a reliable source. There are numerous reliable sources which state that Thomas Edison originated "Hello" as a phone greeting. If you have one that says otherwise, then please add it. Please do not delete sourced information. Thanks. Edison 14:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Addressed on your Talk page.tactik 04:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I edited the article to clarify the claim was for use as a greeting on the telephone, not that his was the first voice box to utter the 2 syllables or that he was the first to set down the 5 letters on paper. "Hullo" and "Hello" were certainly exclamations of surprise before that, as in the Mark Twain story cited in the Hello article. It is not clear that they were the terms of greeting they became in the 1880's, as in "Hello! Who is this? Quit calling this number!" Regards. Edison 17:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
"On this occasion she switched it on to a patient who was awake and who merely said 'Hello Sister, what's the matter with you..." - now, I'm not a English/Literature teacher, but by the way this is written there is no surprise invoked (use of the term 'merely') and it is clearly being used as a greeting. I take the Edison accreditation of "hello" as an urban myth (like many other items and events attributed to him). I would possibly accept that he may have been the first person to say it on the telephone (not really notable, considering...), but it has to be understood that he; did not invent the word; was not the first to use it as a greeting; did not affect it's use or the spelling of the word. There is zero evidence supporting the claims, and plenty actually disproving them (as seen in the Helloarticle). In fact all those suppositions are refuted beautifully by the above quote, from 1826.
You are great at reading, so please read what I wrote above "There are numerous reliable sources which state that Thomas Edison originated "Hello" as a phone greeting." Note "as a phone greeting." The Mark Twain or other use of the word was not claimed to be on the telephone, was it? And the letter from the 1870's which is cited in the references is a pretty good claim for priority. By the way the article on "jungle music" should note that the term was widely used for music by Duke Ellington in the 1920's. For instance in track one of [5] he is called "The greatest living master of jungle music." Of course he died in the 1970's so that is obviously no longer true. Please add your early example of the use of "Hello" the the Hello article. For some reason Oxford English Dictionary dates it to the 1880's. You might drop them a note as well. Edison 13:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The example I mentioned was already in the article (have you even read through it?). Noted, you changed the wording to credit him with using the word specifically as a greeting on the telephone - you don't think it is ridiculous to credit such a thing considering it was already a standard greeting. Shall we now credit other people for using hello as a greeting in other situations? The first to use it as a greeting to mountaineers? The first to use it as a greeting on an internet chat?
And as for your sarcastic remarks - seeing as 'hello' is used in Mark Twain's novel "Roughing It", printed in 1872 (written between 1870-71) this would seem to be a great blow to the OED's claims of 1880's origination. Don't you think.tactik 09:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely. OED should change their date. How do you like Duke Ellington's 1920's jungle music, and what is a good sample example of 1980's jungle music on Amazon? Edison 14:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)