Talk:Tactical role-playing game

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Contents

[edit] Suggested Merger

I think that the "RPG" label is diluted enough as it is, and it is only spreading the confusion to spread the label across more and more game genres that, while containing some of the same elements as individual games in the RPG genre, nevertheless do not contain any actual role playing. It's fine to continue to use this term if that's what people know it as, but we should merge it under a more appropriate genre (i.e., turn-based tactics) that is a more accurate and less confusing classification. --The Yar 16:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Tactical RPG is the term that people that people who actually play these games use to describe the genre. I think it would just confuse things if it was merged into turn-based tactics. You say Tactical RPG and fans of the genre instantly know what you're talking about (games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea, Shining Force, Super Robot Wars, Summon Night, etc.) whereas turn-based tactics is a really vague term.
Tactical RPGs contain just as much roleplaying as a traditional console RPGs. You may argue that console RPGs aren't really role-playing, but that's highly debatable. In any case, it's the term that is used for the genre whether you like it or not. --RDespair, June 16th 2006
I merged turn based tactical into this article a few days ago. No point in keeping a term only few people use vs. one that most people recognize, including the gaming press. Danorux 15:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
The article states: "It is generally accepted that Nintendo released the first tactical RPG, Fire Emblem for the Famicom (NES), created by Intelligent Systems." but Pool of Radiance was first released in 1988. It was a story-driven RPG with a tactical, turn-based combat system that shares similar game mechanics to the later console SRPGs. Is there a reason why the gold box SSI RPGs would not count as Tactical role-playing games? -- Biclops, August 28 2006
I think it's simply the fact that you will not find any gaming press or web page that classifies the game as such. Tactical RPGs are essentially only console games -- this definition may not be entirely satisfactory but the Wikipedia article should describe how the term is actually used by gamers, not an ideal.
Anyone want to second the endorsement of Pool of Radiance? If so, I will add it to the category page. SharkD 04:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I know it's way too late, but there are games that do fit in the turn-based tactics genre but not the T/RPG genre. SharkD 04:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
There are also some real-time games that could be considered T/RPGs. SharkD 18:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

TRPG is quite distinct a genre from RPG, and also distinct enough to be kept as separate from the turn-based tactics article. However, the article is a bit confused and claims many games that are not TRPGs. T/S RPGs are a sepecialised subgenre to turn-based tactics games basically populated (and defined) by being battle-focused, relatively small-scoped adaptations of popular japanese RPG franshises. Miqademus 16:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I know this isn't the best criteria, but Pool of Radiance doesn't look like a TRPG. Certainly not from these screenshots [1]--Tyrfing 16:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strategy RPG

I have never heard the term "tactical RPG" used outside of this article, only "strategy RPG". Just look at the hits for each term on Google:

"strategy rpg"- 19,200,000

"tactical rpg"- 3,320,000

"Strategy RPG" is by far the more oft-used term. So what's going on here? Phediuk 20:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Strategy RPG is the norm.
In all honesty, I'd rather have the entire article merged into turn-based strategy, but strategy RPG is by far more acceptable than 'tactical rpg' which probably wasn't created until Final Fantasy Tactics. --Yayza 20:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Switch the name to Strategy RPG. Don't merge, however. --GlitchBob dbug 20:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to disagree. I think that "Tactics RPG" and "Strategy RPG" are synonymous. I do think that "Startegy RPG is a bit more common, though. -SharkD 19:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
A strategy is a long term plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal, as differentiated from tactics or immediate actions with resources at hand. By that definition, Disgaea is a tactical RPG, while Ogre Battle may be considered a strategy RPG. So basically we need two articles. That said, do we really need to be reminded that multiple games in the genre are self-declared tactics games? FF Tactics, La Pucelle Tactics, Tactics Ogre, Suikoden Tactics... Danorux 05:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
That is original research. If 'Strategy RPG' is the more popular term, then that is the one we should use. SharkD 02:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not the genre makes more use of "strategy" or "tactics" as the terms are defined isn't as important as whether the term is more commonly used. Using another game genre as an example, "real time strategy" (RTS) is the proper term for a genre of games that are common only by a similar tactical element, whether or not the gameplay contains a real "strategic" element. For games in this section such as Final Fantasy Tactics and Disgaea, Gamespot shows these types of games as either "Role Playing" or "Fantasy Turn-Based Strategy", Gamefaqs shows them as "Fantasy Turn-Based Strategy", and IGN lists them as "Strategy RPG". "Strategy" is used much more often to discribe their genre than "Tactics", even if the latter is more commonly used in the game titles themselves. I'd say that says a lot about which is the more accepted term. 72.194.69.219 21:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Not taking sides whether to rename the page or not, but regardless of which name is made "real" a corresponding redirect should be created. Both names "exist" and refer to basically the same game. If a distinction is to be made it really should be as sections within the same article. Also, T/S RPGs are a sepecialised subgenre to turn-based tactics games basically populated (and defined) by being battle-focused, relatively small-scoped adaptations of popular japanese RPG franshises. Miqademus 16:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added a few links

I added a few additional links to PC tactics games, as I thought the platform was a bit under-represented. -SharkD 19:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lords of Chaos

Would Lords of Chaos (video game) be an example of this genre?--Malcohol 12:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. But, the game Incubation certainly is. -SharkD 07:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions:

There has been a push to try and develop multiplayer games of this genre, and section on that would be nice.

Could you provide some examples? The only ones I can think of are Jagged Alliance: Deadly Games, MegaMek and UFO 2000. -SharkD 21:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Invalid comparisons

I believe some of the comparisons made with turn-based strategy are invalid. Namely, the second and third comparisons. The reason I state this is because, in some T/RPGs, characters are allocated an Action Point pool which can be expended on any number of actions as long as the total points do not exceed the limit. Also, in some T/RPGs, turns are not split into clearly demarcated "enemy" and "player" phases. Rather, each character proceeds with its turn based on a separate "initiative" score, like in D&D. -SharkD 22:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phase-based games

I'm wondering if phase-based ("WeGo") tactics games such as Laser Squad Nemesis and Combat Mission should also be listed. Personally, I think they shouldn't be; but, they have nowhere else to go. -SharkD 09:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

They shouldn't be. It's better to place them among TBSs, than here, for they have no RPG elements. --Andrei Knight 03:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

famicom wars came before fire emblem and isn't this game an srpg -Unsigned

Famicom Wars isn't an RPG. --Tyrfing 16:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no mention of one of the real proginators of TRPG's, Wizards Crown, its this combat system that was the precursor to the Gold Box games combat engines. Wizards Crown came out in 1986, predating the 1990 nintendo release, and is vastly more tactical than Ultima III. Yakumo (talk) 14:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I mentioned the game in the 'Genre blurring' section. However, I don't think consensus exists yet to call such games 'Tactical RPGs'. SharkD (talk) 15:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Well it was really the first to combine war gaming + rpging to create a tactical rpg. The problem with 'consensus' is that this article is _really_ skewed toward only console games, sure pc games get a passing mention but only in a minor game list bullet points type note. Never mind that the genres started there first, all the text of the article is console based. Wizard's Crown is more tactical than Bahamuts Lagoon. The whole article has some odd npov to it. Master of Monsters was not the first hex based system, the games originating article for said game doesn't even mention that. Laser Squad is also one of the grand daddies of the genre but that I guess is a blurred line from Tactical RPG and Turn Based Tactics.. On the whole I just feel this is all too console biased.76.6.223.32 (talk) 00:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dofus: notable?

I think that Dofus is a notable game, being that it is the only MMOTRPG that I know of. However, I haven't personally played it long enough to determine whether it is notable for other reasons, as well. SharkD 22:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I've never heard of it. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
It's a somewhat-played online tactical RPG. It's unique, but I don't think it's that notable within the genre, even though it's sort of nifty. Voretus 15:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dofus IS noticeable...

I would like to disagree on the fact that Dofus IS a noticeable game. 2 million players beg to differ with your opinions, and I also need to highlight that there is no other tactical (turn-based) game out there that is browser based and an MMORPG in its own right at the same time. And if you can find another game tht is "MANGA"-based please let me know.

I would like to ask for permission to re-add Dofus to its list, but I will not push the matter. After all I am a simple player of Dofus, not the owner or the maker or an employee of Ankama Studios.

An independent survey has been made by MMORPG.com (after reading behaviour guidleines in wikia I will not post the link to the survey here) but Dofus is one of the few games whose player average age is not under 25. --Cordially, Abelius 18:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

When determining whether a game is notable or not I always consider two things only: the game's popularity and its feature set. If it's not popular or doesn't have unique gameplay then it's not notable. Art doesn't count. SharkD 10:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
2 million players can't be wrong. And seeing how Dofus is pretty unique (as Abelius pointed out, it's the only MMOTRPG that's anywhere near notable), I'd say it belongs on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.32.4.190 (talk • contribs)

And whoever has never heard of the term "tactical RPG", makes me think he or she lives in a cocoon, or on St. Helena Island... --Cordially, Abelius 18:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be notable, not noticeable. Two million players does not make it notable on Wikipedia. For example, a game can be notable if it wins a real non-trivial award. Like, if PC Gamer gave a game with 5000 players game of the year, then the game is notable. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove comparisons?

I think that the points raised in the comparisons sections are shady at best. I'm sure it would not be too hard to find exceptions for nearly every point. SharkD 10:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've just looked through the sections and exceptions are common, not just there. I would agree with removing them unless there are some universal things that are different, and even then the relevance would be shaky. Voretus 17:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that there were universal things. E.g. Tactical RPGs really tend to represent more massive battles. Then, in traditional comsole RPGs there is no free moving as in TRPGs. TRPGs really focused on battles. There is really a grid system in most 2D TRPGs and turn-based strategies. Really, WHY did you remove everything? I'll get everything back and you may remove what's not true. --Andrei Knight 22:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I can find an exception for every point you raise:
  • Tactical RPGs appear on the PC as well.
  • Many RPGs feature combat on the same screen. TOEE and SS do not use an isometric grid.
  • There are real-time tactical RPGs as well. UFO: Aftermath, UFO: Afterlight, Brigade E5: Jagged Union, JAZZ: Hired Guns, NWN2 (if you stretch things a bit). I'd rather not discuss real-time games here (I'm biased against them), as they already have their own article.
  • There are many RPGs that allow for great flexibility when creating a character. Fallout, Arcanum.
  • In FOT, JA2 TOEE, and SS the number of actions you can take are limited by the number of APs you have.
  • In TOEE there are no phases. An initiative score is calculated for each unit.
  • In JA2 and SS you can attack units at unlimited range.
  • JA2 and FO/FOT have no classes.
  • JA2 has a strategic layer and a tactical layer.
  • JA2, FOT and SS have no magic points or elemental properties.
  • You can't change equipment in Battle for Wesnoth.
Your comparisons are only valid when comparing console RPGs to console T/RPGs. Also, this article was merged with the Turn-based tactics article; so it may reflect some characteristics that may seem more like wargames. SharkD 00:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
What's the difference between RPGs and Tactical RPGs then? There must be some, don't you think so? --Andrei Knight 00:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
By the way, hardly anyone would say that JA2 is a tactical RPG. I think you mix here two (perhaps even three) different genres. --Andrei Knight 01:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Read the section below for new discussion as to what makes a TRPG. Basically, what it boils down to is this: Is the game tactical? Is the game an RPG? SharkD 01:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Temple of Elemental Evil a Tactical RPG?

I think it is not and I have removed it from here. Fell free to argue.--Andrei Knight 22:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"All tactical RPGs are descendents of table-top role-playing games, such as Chainmail, which were mainly tactical in their original form. Indeed the very format of a T/CRPG is like a tabletop RPG in its appearance, pacing and rule structure."
ToEE's rules were adapted very closely from Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition. If you'd read the article you'd know that pen & paper RPGs are where this genre got its gameplay characteristics from in the first place. SharkD 00:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing other games

I recently added the Avernum and Geneforge series to Category:Tactical role-playing games and was wondering if they, as well as the first two games in the Fallout series, should be removed. I'm torn as to whether they are or are not "tactical" enough. SharkD 03:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Avernum and Geneforge series, as well as Age of Decadence. The first two Fallout games are no longer listed either. SharkD 05:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New comparisons

To replace the old comparisons section, maybe we can think of some new, key points that can be used as guidelines when defining the genre. Some ideas that come to mind:

  • [edit] Tactical combat must constitute a major part of the gameplay experience.
  • Must have some form of character advancement.
  • Terrain must play a noticable role.
  • Must have control of a party.
  • Must be turn-based (I'm biased)

I can already imagine games that would break these rules and still fit my conception of what a T/RPG is. ToEE, for instance, has no terrain modifiers; yet, it is very tactical in every other respect. SharkD 04:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I would imagine that all tactical RPGs are turn-based; otherwise they'd just be strategy games like StarCraft. The other things I can think of exceptions to. The Game Boy Advance game Advance Wars has no system of unit advancement, if I recall correctly. There's quite a few with no terrain modifiers. I can't think of any right off the bat, but I can recall playing a freeware tactical RPG a few years back that put you in control of only one unit with varying abilities. Voretus 15:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Real-time tactics has its own article and lists several games that might fit the genre. I still resist including them. SharkD 18:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Freedom Force is a good example of a real-time game that would fit the genre. SharkD 21:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Magi is an example of a game that is both real-time and doesn't feature a party. SharkD 04:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by tactical combat? I think it must be explained, because the term is too vague. --Andrei Knight 02:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
When I say combat (or a game in general) is tactical, I mean that it requires contemplative thought for success. A game has to reach a certain threshold in its tactical-ness before I consider it, though. SharkD 15:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
You are too vague again. How are you going to measure the requirement of the contemplative thought? Your definition is too abstract. There must be something cocrete. E.g. more freedom of moving etc., more massive battlesthan in RPGs, units which demand more attention than in TBSs etc. Some of these things were mentioned in old comparisons and they were quite good, I still think. --Andrei Knight 02:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
All of the things you mention require the player to contemplate more. Yet they are, individually, not shared by enough games. I just don't feel there are any "concrete" things that distinguish the genre as well (i.e. without exception) as the "abstract" ones do. SharkD 04:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gold Box games

We need a short section on Gold Box games in the PC games section. SharkD 18:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. SharkD 16:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turn-based tactics

I resurrected the old turn-based tactics page. It now links to here and to the tactical wargame page. We'll now have to debate whether a lot of these games fit in this article, or the tactical wargame article. SharkD 02:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

To cut a long story short, what's the difference between tectical RPGs and turn-base tactics? I could place many tactical RPGs among turn-base tactics. What are your main criteria? --Andrei Knight 02:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Tactical RPGs may include games that are real-time. Turn-based tactics may include games that don't have RPG characteristics. SharkD 03:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
As far as I understood, the only difference between so called turn-based tactics and TBSs is that turn basic tactics is concentrated on small-scale confrontations. Is it enough to estalish a genre? And do think that games with RPG elements belong there as well as games without them?--Andrei Knight 03:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not so much the scale of operations that distinguishes the genres--it's the degree to which combat is abstracted or simulated. To quote this discussion page: A strategy is a long term plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal, as differentiated from tactics or immediate actions with resources at hand. Strategy deals more with long-term planning, including diplomacy and logistics. Strategy games without tactical elements often abstract combat to a degree where combat is resolved using only a single mouse-click. Tactical games deal with combat more directly. Note that games can fall into both the Strategy and Tactics categories if they contain elements of both (JA2 and X-COM for instance). I also don't think RPG characteristics add or subtract to a game's strategic or tactical nature. Finally, the genre is already established. The term "tactical" has been used in conjunction with wargames for as long, if not longer, than with RPGs (read the wargaming article). SharkD 19:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
You'll find it difficult to apply analytical criteria to distinguish between TBTs and TRPGs; the latter is a subgenre of TBTs, and not really an analytical but rather a "popular" or "colloquial" one. The basic difference is that TRPGs are team-based battle-oriented adaptations of principally japanese RPGs. As such it is not a "true" (distinguishable) genre of its own, but distinct enough as an alive distinction within a genre to warrant its own article. However, this should be mentioned in the article. Miqademus 16:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, I have to make the point that TRPGs may include real-time games, as well. Freedom Force is a good example of a game that is real-time and would fit in the genre. SharkD 20:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Metal Gear Acid

Some mention of Metal Gear Acid series should be made. They use an interesting system whereby you gain, over time, collectible cards which improve your character's stats. The series also features tactical gameplay. SharkD 03:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess I should have phrased this in the form of a question. I haven't personally played the game, so there may be reasons not to mention it. SharkD 03:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Why does this article have so much non-free images? I commons we have a lot of Video game screenshots which should be used first. Free games such as The Battle for Wesnoth are also preferable. --SMP - talk (en) - talk (ca) 10:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] usage of "CRPG"

Many times in the article, the term "CRPG" is used without explanation. Either make it clear that CRPG and TRPG are synonymous in that context, or change the wording accordingly...or at least specify where you mean Console or Computer RPG. As a gamer who doesn't know the sub-genres of RPGs, I was quite confused. yuor faec (talk) 04:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

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