Talk:Table of nuclides

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This is the centralized talk page for this article (Table of nuclides) and the following other articles: Table of nuclides (combined), Table of nuclides (complete), Table of nuclides (segmented, narrow) and Table of nuclides (segmented, wide).


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Contents

[edit] Old business

[edit] Graphic

Surely a picture is needed here Biddlesby 09:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison with Periodic Table

The comparison with the periodic table in the introduction: "This system of ordering nuclides can offer a greater insight into the characteristics of elements and isotopes than the more well known periodic table." suggests too much of a competition between the two. I suggest a more comparative approach, emphasizing that they cover two different bodies of data; e.g.

The chart of the nuclides illustrates nucleon structure much as the periodic table illustrates electron structure.

JohnAspinall 14:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Isotope table (complete)

Why is this article separate from Isotope table (complete)?

JohnAspinall 14:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Chartofthenuclides cover.jpg

Image:Chartofthenuclides cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 07:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New business (After Quilbert’s revisions via templates)

[edit] Welcome to the new centralized talk place

Moving around articles is coming to an end. For the merge discussion see Talk:Table of nuclides/archive (complete). --Quilbert (talk) 01:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Let me step on in here…

Holy smokes… talk about “doing the heavy lifting” Quilbert! You’ve addressed so many shortcomings with your solution. Now there is only one place to edit data, one venue to discuss issues, and multiple presentations of the data to serve every conceivable need. Well done. I’m sure the single discussion venue will take a bit of getting used to. I recently spent some time at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) (I lead the Section-1 proposal). With only a bit of effort, topics can be well organized, like on Talk:MOSNUM. Greg L (my talk) 02:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

And thank you for your helpful input JWB. You have been the good shepherd of these pages for a long time, have obviously invested a great deal of effort into them, and are exceptionally knowledgeable on the subject. Unfortunately we seem to have managed to severely trample each others’ toes heading into these changes. Fortunately, Quilbert saw fit to jump in here before we broke our keyboards ;-). I hope we can treat what Quilbert has given us as a jumping point for a new beginning. Greg L (my talk) 02:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Impressive that Quilbert did with those templates! Also, nice idea to merge the talk pages also. Not seen that done before! Congrats! --Rebroad (talk) 11:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vertical vs. Horizontal

In this text:

  • Isotopes - Nuclides that neighbor each other horizontally; nuclides that have the same number of protons, or all of the same chemical element. Example: Carbon-13 and Carbon-14
  • Isotones - Nuclides that neighbor each other vertically; nuclides that have the same number of neutrons. Example: Carbon-12 and Boron-11.
  • Isobars - Nuclides that neighbor each other up-and-to-the-left and down-and-to-the-right; nuclides that have the same mass number. Example: Carbon-12 and Boron-12.

…shouldn’t the “horizontally” and “vertically” be swapped? When I think of these terms, I think of them with a mental picture of the tables on Table of nuclides (combined) and Table of nuclides (segmented, narrow) (example shown below). Aren’t the isotones neighboring each other horizontally in these tables? Is there some other table layout to which “horizontal” and “vertical” are referenced to, and if so, should they be? Greg L (my talk) 05:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Z → 0 1 2
n ↓ n H He 3 4
0 1H 2He Li Be 5 6
1 1n 2H 3He 4Li 5Be B C 7
2 2n 3H 4He 5Li 6Be 7B 8C N 8
3 4H 5He 6Li 7Be 8B 9C 10N O 9
4 4n 5H 6He 7Li 8Be 9B 10C 11N 12O F 10
5 6H 7He 8Li 9Be 10B 11C 12N 13O 14F Ne 11
6 7H 8He 9Li 10Be 11B 12C 13N 14O 15F 16Ne Na 12
7 9He 10Li 11Be 12B 13C 14N 15O 16F 17Ne 18Na Mg 13
8 10He 11Li 12Be 13B 14C 15N 16O 17F 18Ne 19Na 20Mg Al 14
9 12Li 13Be 14B 15C 16N 17O 18F 19Ne 20Na 21Mg 22Al Si
10 14Be 15B 16C 17N 18O 19F 20Ne 21Na 22Mg 23Al 24Si
11 16B 17C 18N 19O 20F 21Ne 22Na 23Mg 24Al 25Si
12 18C 19N 20O 21F 22Ne 23Na 24Mg 25Al 26Si
13 20N 21O 22F 23Ne 24Na 25Mg
26Al
 27Si
14 22O 23F 24Ne 25Na 26Mg 27Al 28Si
15 24F 25Ne 26Na 27Mg 28Al 29Si
16 26Ne 27Na 28Mg 29Al 30Si
17 28Na 29Mg 30Al 31Si
18 30Mg 31Al 32Si
19 32Al 33Si
20 34Si
You are right, I changed it to fit our layout. Most charts outside WP are rotated by 90 degrees counterclockwise. But that is impractical here, because in the upper left corner you would just see a void. --Quilbert (talk) 12:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] drip lines

Would in be possible to add the drip lines, say by a heavy cell border, in those case we know where it exists? kwami (talk) 07:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I have added support for drip lines, see Template talk:Iso1#Adding a drip line. --Quilbert (talk) 07:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Great! So why aren't there any in the table? I don't know myself which have been established.
Okay, I see now we still don't know much. I thought maybe things had changed in the past decade or so. kwami (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] post-expand include size

I just noticed that the post-expand include size of Table of nuclides (combined) is near-critical:

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See also Wikipedia:Template limits. Please help to watch this limit. We might have to change something when more nuclides are added. As of bug 13260 this might or might not be done by a simple change in Template:Isotones. --Quilbert (talk) 13:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A = 3Z - an even number

The Table of nuclides has information on 4 different categories of nuclides. The even Z elements have the two categories EE and EO With the EE (even p, even n) having more than 1/2 of all the stable nuclides and the EO only about 1/6. The odd Z elements have the OE with approximately 1/6 and the OO categories with the OO only having only 4 stable plus 4 long lives unstable elements. Stability trend lines that cross elements must necessarily run through the EE+OE nuclides and have the formula A = 3Z - an even number. A = 3Z - 32 runs from 4294Mo to 57139La. A = 3Z - 38 runs from 68166Er to 82208Pb. In these areas the stable accumulation preference is to add an increment of 1 deuteron+1 extra neutron to maintain stability. The p verses n table of nuclides chart is unable to display these trend lines. A chart that can plots p (horizontal) verses the value A = 2Z (the excess neutron number) vertical. See Talk:Nuclear model ---WFPM (talk) 22:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I've actually prototyped some charts with this kind of skew. Please take a look at User:JWB#Skewed nuclide charts. On the skew 2 chart, you can see the vertical 68166Er to 82208Pb line. (in fact it extends all the way from 100Pd to 250Cm for the >1day nuclides visible on the chart) --JWB (talk) 22:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The chart is not so much a "skewed" chart as it is a chart based on the hypothesis that the structure of the nucleus consists of a certain number of accumulated deuterons (as represented by the Z number) plus a certain number of "excess neutrons" (as represented by the A-2Z ordinate number}, which are added to the surface of the basic accumulated deuteron structure. The real physical models shown at Talk:Nuclear model are constructed based on that same hypothesis.WFPMWFPM (talk) 03:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)