Talk:Table Mountain/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I have imported some of my text from Everything2 for this entry. It may be a bit chatty in tone for Wikipedia, but the content is not a copyright violation. - AnthonySteele

Contents

pic from blauberg side

http://www.isdial.net/~xanex/capetown.jpg

took the above, can be used in the article if anyone is interested. just dont link to it :)

The Killing of History

Why was the section on history gutted? Is the history of rock climbing etc. not important? Captainbeefart 13:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


Orientation

This article would benefit by the addition of a contour map. Writers have referred to compass directions (north, west, etc.) that are difficult to visualize without a map. Other references have been made to relative directions (left, right, right-side up, etc.) without stating the orientation of the writer. Could we improve this? AnonUser 16:00, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the article refers to the "front" and "rear" of Table Mountain. This is unclear to non-residents of Cape Town. Perhaps a resident could revise this. 70.109.61.142 12:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Major edit

I've done some major edits to this article, including:

  • correcting/adding wikilinks
  • removing some redlinks
  • wikified distances using   for spaces and the standard 1,000's format for the numbers
  • removing majority of the hiking/climbing section. Wikipedia is not a place to dispense advice
  • added {{sect-stub}} to hiking/climbing section (needs more info on hiking trails)
  • extensive grammatical rewrites to make sentences/paragraphs read better
  • removed section on "the mountain in Cape Town" as it was virtually empty, and incorrect. "Native Capetonians" use road-signs to navigate their way around the city ;)
  • probably some other things I can't recall

Zunaid 12:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Fake legends

Beefart has good reason to believe that the "Legend" of Qamata is a fake. Please provide a citation or he will remove the whole section. Captainbeefart 13:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Better to start by assuming good faith. A quick Google search brought up this reference. [1] Zaian 17:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Beefart says: Good faith on the part of a contributor does not protect the pages of Wikipedia against twaddle. Garbage in, garbage out. I didn't say the contributor was disingenuous. I merely suggested the "Legend" was a fake. Honest but ignorant people repeat nonsense every day, because they don't know any better. (I've been guilty of it myself. As I recall, it happened on a Wednesday...). The "deep historical" origins of this tale are undocumented. Even Father Xmas has a better track record. I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with the history of South Africa will know that no Bantu people either saw the Cape Peninsula or knew of its existence before the 19th Century (References: Theale's History of South Africa and the Diary of Jan van Riebeeck, for a start). How could the Bantu have had a legend about something they had never known? One may as well write an article on the role of the Tooth Fairy in the Great Trek. 'Qamata', as expostulated, has all the hallmarks, prima facie, of one of those ancient folk tales that date from last Wednesday. It is, I suggest, more akin to Urban Legend than real legend. Ray Charles could have seen the elements of politikal korrektniz lurking in it. This is Peter Pan history out of control. What will we have next?: the Thabo Mbeke Memorial Edition of Van Riebeeck's Diary, in which Jan has lunch with Gaika and in the afternoon they both go out and hug treees and save whales together? Get out of here... Besides, when exactly did Wikipedia stoop to citing "contemporary sages" instead of scholarly texts? This 'legend' is, in my opinion (jaundiced of course as usual), a load of old dingo's kidneys. Now if somebody can find a documented legend of the San....Captainbeefart 14:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I share some of your "concerns" about this legend :) In its favour, the name Qamata could well have San origins and there was crossover fram San to Xhosa culture. Seems the legend is sufficiently established to be included in Wikipedia, but if its origins seem a bit shaky (bordering on dingo's kidneys), you can put it in context when referring to it: "According to a legend (earliest reference by contemporary Zulu sage Credo Mutwa last Wednesday), when Qamata created the world, ..." If you want to cast further doubt on it you'll need to refer to external sources debunking it, because discussions on talk pages don't qualify as Wikipedia references :) Zaian 15:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Qamata is well documented (one of the references on the Qamata page is to an 1886 text), but I don't know if this particular Qamata legend was known before Credo Mutwa told it. It may be a genuine ancient Xhosa legend, but applying it to Table Mountain may be a modern interpretation. Zaian 16:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Amen. Captainbeefart 13:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Oom Jan v. Riebeck's diary?ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!? So you think it's entirely impossible for anyone other than the KhoiSan to have seen the mountain before JVR discovered the country (much to the joy of the natives, since being lost for tens of thousands of years is such a shame). African's have been living in Africa for quite some time (a bit more than 500 years) and history books might not have certain info. As for the legend, I would also love to see sources other than Mutwa. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's one source -- old, but that doesn't make it fake: Theal, George McCall. Kaffir Folk-lore: A Selection from the Traditional Tales. 1886: London. --Bookgrrl 03:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't get to the link. Does it specifically mention the creation of Table Mountain? If it does, then I'm satisfied withthat legend, but as I explained on Talk:Qamata, I don't consider an 1800s text a credible source for info on African societies. There are millions of amaXhosa alive today - they are the current authority on their beliefs, not Theal. I doubt if there are any true facts in the Qamata article, and I would prefer it deleted until a modern source pops up. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 07:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I corrected the link in Bookgrrl's comment. It doesn't mention the Table Mountain myth, though. The myth is widely quoted though, so I think this article should include it, together with some careful wording to say that the earliest reference is Credo Mutwa. Zaian 19:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Beefart will attempt a summary of his position in the hope that light will prevail over heat: (1) Political correctness is a brain disease. It is the art of abandoning logic and having instead the strength of other people's convictions. It is the triumph of the mantra over analysis. (2) Whatever the shortcomings are of van Riebeeck's diary and Theal's History of South Africa, these works make it clear beyond dispute that there were no Bantu people within hundreds of kilometres of Table Mountain before the 19th century. The colonial authors recorded the first meetings between whites and the Bantu at the time that the meetings occurred. They had absolutely no motive for falsifying these facts. The meetings between the two cultures were clearly very significant for the colony. Had the colonialists met the Bantu earlier, they would have recorded this fact earlier. They didn't. (3) Unless we are going to get into Peter Pan arguments about astral travel and all, it is safe to contend that it is not possible for people to have legends about things they had never known (4) Whatever the virtues are of Xhosa culture, these people did not read or write before they learned these arts from westerners. There are no written accounts of history from the Bantu point of view before the 19th century. The fact that some people regret that and that some people don't like the idea changes nothing. Written records are sometimes in error but fables handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation are notoriously unreliable. This is equally true for every race of people on the planet and any number of sociological and anthropological studies affirm the fact. (5) Nobody is disputing that the Xhosa repeat ancient tales about Qamata. That there were legends about this entity in the 19th Century is not disputed. However, it is simply ridiculous to assert that "There was a Qamata, therefore everything attributed to him/her/it must be true". This is about as sensible as saying "There was van Riebeeck. The records prove it. Therefore my assertion that he discovered Kilimanjaro must be true". Wikipedia ought not in my opinion to be pandering to the reconstruction of history where this is clearly not warranted. This is transparent twaddle. And just to assure you that Beefart is not totally reformed, (6) "Incredo" Mutwa is a ZULU. How the hell would he know?..... If he is a sage, then I'm a Thyme Lord. Excretum tauri cerebrum vincit. I have some wonderful Polish versions of Xhosa legends, some of them nearly 100 minutes old. I made them look ancient by taking them out onto the lawn and pissing on them. Email me...

1. No one's being PC 2. JvR and Theal don't know what happened before they arrived here 3. If they had seen the place no one was around to write about it 4. (see 2 and 3) no one claimed the legend was a fact, just that it exists 5. No one claimed this 6. The same way that Theal was not umXhosa, but he wrote about their legends: through clairvoyance and ESP. You might consider writing about yourself in the 1st person and not being so wordy - people might take you more seriously (or not). Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 17:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Beefart says: Let us cut to the chase, because life is short. On point (2): You are correct. You have forced the debate quite unnecessarily into the realm of archaeology but it does not help your argument. Many archaeological remains record the migration of the Bantu people from near the Sahara Desert into southern Africa over hundreds of years. But there is not one shred of evidence to support the proposition that the Bantu were in the far Western Cape in the 17th Century or before that. On point (6): There is no shred of evidence to support the contention that clairvoyance and ESP are real. They fall into the same category as belief in the Tooth Fairy. On the subject of too many words, belay your diatribes. I care nought for the opinions of fools. Ah... Hold on a moment! Beefart is receiving an ESP message from... ah, it's Jan Smuts: "Did you know Qamata was the first person to drive up Platteklip Gorge in an ox wagon? It was in 1938. Ek het dit gesien". Now that you have read that in print, please find a place for it somewhere in Wikipedia, along with all the other pathetic crap that some people believe. Captainbeefart 15:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Features

I've reworked the Features section to describe the most prominent features of the mountain. That included removing references to Arrow Buttress, Ledges and Carrel's Ledge, which aren't well known outside mountaineering circles. I made quite a few other changes to the article which I hope are an improvement. Comments welcome. Zaian 16:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge from 2006 fire

Please discuss at Talk:2006 Table Mountain fire#Merge back?. Thanks. Zunaid©® 14:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Quagga

Why is there no mention of the extinct quagga or as it is known in Afrikaans kwagga? I'll give about a week for discussion and then i'll add it to the fauna section if there are no objections. Wynand.singels 10:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Paranormal

Why the hell is Table Mountain in the Paranormal section?? the mountain is there, what is there to doubt? If it is about the many myths surrounding the mountain then i think those stories themselves should be in the paranormal section, the mountain itself, certainly not. Wynand.singels 10:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)