Talk:T-V distinction

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Contents 1 Thee and thou 2 Ni & Monty Python 3 Formal to Informal in German 4 Vos in some Spanish-speaking countries 5 Y'all 6 Order of the table 7 Ye in Newfoundland 8 Clarification on T-V distinctions in Portuguese 9 Nouns, not adverbs 10 Norwegian formal "De" 11 More on Portuguese 12 English Pronoun 13 Online use 14 German "Ihr" as a singular? 15 Esperanto 16 T-V adverb 17 Norwegian 18 Norwegian Nynorsk 19 Greek section is odd 20 Hungarian is getting huge 21 Hindi informal plural 22 Related verbs, nouns and pronouns 23 Italian 24 Origins 25 References 26 Swedish use of Ni 27 Can we remove case forms from table? 28 Y as typesetters' substitute for Th 29 Catalan 30 French 31 The "dubious-discuss" tag in "German" 32 Danish De/du 33 Translating to English 34 Czech Section 35 Swedish section 36 Polish

[edit] Thee and thou

"Thee" and "thou" are still used in some English dialects. Is it worth mentioning these? -- user:Heron

Which dialects? --Tb 04:31, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I believe they still use those words in the Yorkshire dialect. --Goododa 04:37, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I believe you're correct. See here: [1] Marnanel 05:14, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ni & Monty Python

Someone should add a reference to Monty Python's Holy Grail, given the discussion of Swedish Ni (which is, after all, where the Knights Who Say Ni get their humor from). --Tb 04:31, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Formal to Informal in German

I rememeber hearing back in my high school German class that going from the formal to informal form was a significant milestone in romantic relationships. I was thinking maybe this should be added to the article, especially if it applies to other languages. I also recall that there was a special verb for the transition, but it may have just been duzen --Ckape 21:33, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The romantic movment thought that the Sie/ Ihr (which was also used in that time like in french) was a latin introduction and thous regarded inferior. They thought it is more GERMAN if you use Du (a kind of nationalism). But finally that didn't last, today Du/ Sie are still in use.

Is there something missing from this sentence in the German section: "Street and similar social workers will usually, sports clubs trainers will sometimes tell children and teens to address them with Sie." Should it say that social workers will usually use "du"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 (talk) 10:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vos in some Spanish-speaking countries

Maybe there should be a reference on the use of "vos" in some Spanish-speaking countries (where it replaces "tú"), as well as the historical use of "vos" (a formal use that was replaced by "vuestra merced" and later on by "usted"). Sabbut 22:04, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Y'all

Isn't y'all used as an informal second person plural pronoun in English? Kpalion 12:43, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Y'all is generally considered slang, but could conceivably be used either in a familiar or a formal setting. Matt gies 06:17, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's really more a regionalism than anything else, and not subject to the same distinctions as the T-V divide. The only decision about whether to use it or not is the decision about how much local flavor should color your speech. In situations where "proper" Standard English is preferred, it would be avoided (a news broadcast, a wedding invitation, etc). However, as a southerner, I have no problem using it in reference to people I would normally address formally, or in situations where, speaking French, I would use the "Vous" form. "I just wanted to let y'all know that I've really enjoyed my meal in your five star restaurant" is perfectly acceptable to me, for instance. geeksquad (talk) 17:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Order of the table

The table doesn't appear (to me) to be in any sort of order. Perhaps it would be appropriate to order it alphabetically?

[edit] Ye in Newfoundland

In some parts of Newfoundland, Canada people have re-analysed "ye" as the second person plural and treat "you" as being expressly singular. This is still being transmitted to young people - I remember a friend of mine, a young university student in St. John's, he related to me that the first time he left the province on a trip, for a youth group, people would react strangely when he said "ye" and finally someone asked, "what are you saying?" And he said, "ye, the plural of you" like she was asking a stupid question, until it dawned on him that this was an unexpected regionalism.

To my knowledge this anecdote actually doesn't have any relevance to the present discussion, however, because while you/ye expresses a singular/plural distinction, it does not express a T-V distinction - it is ungrammatical in these dialects to refer to a singular person as "ye", as I understand it, and referring to a single person as "ye" never conveys distance or respect distinct from "you". Steve D 14:11, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification on T-V distinctions in Portuguese

The information on T-V distinctions in Portuguese needs some clarification:

1. "Vós" is archaic, both in Brazil AND in Portugal; it is used only in religious services (e.g. to address God) or in very formal literary language.
2. "Tu" is widely used in Portugal as the informal 2nd person singular form of address. In Brazil, "tu" is used only in poetry/music, or in regional varieties of the language (e.g., "gaúcho"), in the latter case often with the incorrect verb conjugation (e.g. "tu falou" instead of the standard "tu falaste"). Otherwise, "você" followed by the appropriate 3rd person verb form is the standard form of saying "you" in almost all situations in Brazil and, in the case of formal address (when talking to a stranger for example) in Portugal. To make things more complicated, one can also say "you (sing.)" in Portuguese using the construction "o senhor/ a senhora" (e.g. "A senhora precisa de ajuda ? ", lit. "The lady needs help?"). Generally, this form of address is reserved both in Brazil and in Portugal to formal situations, e.g. to address someone who is much older than you (in Brazil, sometimes to address your parents) or to talk to someone who is hierarchically superior to you like your boss, a public authority, or, in the case of students, sometimes your teachers or professors. In Portugal specifically and, to lesser extent, in some parts of Brazil (e.g. the Northeast), in addition to "o senhor/a senhora", there is a large array of similar expressions that may also mean "you (formal, sing.)", e.g. "o pai"/"a mãe" when addressing your parents; "o engenheiro"/"o doutor" when addressing someone who has those respective titles; "a menina" when addressing a young lady, etc...
3. Since "vós" is archaic, "vocês" is now the quasi-universal way of saying "you (pl.)" in both European and Brazilian Portuguese. Otherwise, "os senhores/as senhoras" is used instead of "vocês", more or less in the same context in which "o senhor/a senhora" would be used instead of "você".
4. Since "você" requires third person verb forms, it is somewhat natural that it should be replaced by third person oblique pronouns ("o"/"a" or "lhe") when used respectively as a direct or indirect object. That is actually the rule in standard Portuguese and the most common usage in Portugal. If you watched for example the British movie "Love Actually", you might recall that Sr. Barros, Aurélia's father, addresses Jamie (Colin Firth), by "você" (e.g. "Você quer casar com a minha filha ?") and, at same point, when Jamie asks Sr. Barros to take him to the restaurant where Aurélia works, he replies: "Levo-o lá" ("I will take you there"). That construction however, although perfectly correct in standard Portuguese, sounds odd to Brazilians who would prefer, in that context, to say "Eu levo o senhor lá". On the other hand, in informal address ,when talking to a friend or an equal addressed by "você", Brazilians would normally say "Eu levo você lá" or "Eu te levo lá". The latter construction with "te", normally the oblique pronoun associated with "tu", reveals one interesting contrast between standard Portuguese and spoken (southeastern) Brazilian Portuguese, i.e. the use of "te" with "você" instead of "o" or "lhe" (e.g. Braz. "Você trouxe aquele casaco que eu te dei no Natal ?" = standard Port. " Trouxeste aquele casaco que te dei no Natal ?" or "Você trouxe aquele casaco que (eu) lhe dei no Natal ?"). The você/te usage, although incorrect according to "school grammar" is actually VERY common both in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, and is widely accepted in colloquial language among the educated middle class. As far as I can tell, the only situation when Brazilians routinely use the standard "o" for "você" in the spoken language is when "o" follows an infinitive and changes to "-lo", e.g. "Prazer em conhecê-lo" (="Nice to meet you") or "Não preciso lembrá-lo da importância dessa reunião" (="I don't have/need to remind you of the importance of this meeting").

[edit] Nouns, not adverbs

The Finnish words "sinuttelu" and "teitittely" are nouns, not adverbs. They are derived directly from the corresponding verbs, thanks to the incredibly flexible word derivation scheme of the Finnish language. — JIP | Talk 15:23, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegian formal "De"

I am a native Norwegian speaker, and I noticed that "De" was listed as formal 2.person singular in Norwegian. This should really be marked as archaic. I have never heard anybody use it in normal speech. In newer written Norwegian I've only seen it where the author/translator is obviously not a native speaker or it’s deliberately used to sound archaic. Encountering the word “De/Dere” in singular in Norwegian gives me exactly the same associations as “thou/thee” in English.

Please mark it as archaic. Are they always capitalized like the English I? - TAKASUGI Shinji 00:35, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)

Yes, they're always capitalized to separate them from the "informal" pronouns which are homograph.

[edit] More on Portuguese

Also for Portuguese, there are a few dialectiual/sociolectual/regional/whatever pronouns that are pretty widely spread, but sound poor or non-standard, or what have you. I've heard 'vossemecê' even from middle class brazilians who were trying to suck up to someone. I understand that it's used amongst the very poor in some regions. I know 'Vossa Exelência' is used from time to time, but sounds a little stale, or whatever. I've never been to Portugal, but I've noticed in a few novels frases like 'o tio' 'o professor' and countless others used as prounouns, but I'm not sure if these are really that common, or what situation would call for them, or what. I've been curious about those odd pronouns for a while, but it seems like I get a different answear out of everybody I ask. Kyle543 03:52, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I've been watching quite a lot of European Portuguese TV soaps lately (out of pure linguistic curiosity!) and I have noticed that EP speakers frequently tend to use "article + noun" constructions with the same semantic value as "you (sing)". For example, "o pai"/"a mãe" seems to be the universal way of addressing one's parents in Portugal. Likewise, "a menina" is a common way for older people and domestic workers to address young ladies. Moreover, people with whom you have no intimacy are frequently addressed by their professional titles like e.g. "o engenheiro", "o arquite(c)to", "o delegado", etc... In Brazil, except for the widespread "o senhor/a senhora", those "article + noun = you" constructions are never used, at least not in the Southeast (I heard "o pai"/"a mãe" also occurs in Northeastern Brazilian speech, but I'm not sure). As for "vosmecê", I believe it is mostly archaic and used only in isolated rural areas of Brazil (if used at all). Otherwise, everybody I know uses "você" instead. "Vossa Excelência" on the other hand is used in parliamentary debates to address a congressman or a senator. It is also customary to use the deferential "Vossa Senhoria" to address a person who is not an elected representative, but is testifying before the Brazilian Congress. Mbruno 13:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English Pronoun

You is singular, Ye is plural.

What about Yall, Youse, You-uns, You Guys, You Lot, and such from other dialects? Or if you want to be archaic, You and Ye are both plural (like We and Us), Thee and Thou are the singular versions.

In standard modern English, You covers both singular and plural and both nominative and objective.

It depends on your definition of "standard modern English". In spoken American English, at least where I lived (southwestern Pennsylvania) and particularly (but not exclusively) among young people, "you guys" seems to be the quasi-universal informal 2nd person plural form of address.

You is just a modernised form of ye. Ye was the plural and sing. inf. 2nd person pronoun, which has now been replaced with You. MHDIV ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 14:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but not modernised - you is the old 2nd p. pl. objective form (even earlier on, accusative and dative), like me, him, her, us; ye the old 2nd p. pl. nominative, like I, he, she, we. The modernisation lies in the demise of yet another inflectional distinction. Keinstein 22:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Online use

I'm pretty sure that in most online channels like IRC T-forms are used. Does anyone think this would be a good thing to add to the "hints" section?

In general, formality isn't used in online contexts. —Casey J. Morris 22:22, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

I confirm for French. Please note that, at least for this language, while right for IRC, this may not be true of e-mail (even out of professional context). Granted, the switch from formality to unformality is still faster than offline. —Reply to David Latapie 11:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] German "Ihr" as a singular?

Watching a Japanese movie subtitled in German ("Lady Snowblood") I was puzzled as a native English speaker to see individual characters addressing each other as "ihr" rather than "du" or "Sie". Is this a one-off, or is it found elsewhere in German or German translations of Japanese?

"Ihr" is plural "you". "Du" is informal singular, "Sie" is formal singular. I would say the movie erred.

"Ihr" is an archaic formal form of the singular, since replaced by "Sie". When "Ihr" and "Sie" coexisted as singular forms "Ihr" used to be used in more-than-formal contexts, e.g. in poetry, lofty speech and in addressing very high-ranking persons. "Ihr" in the context of this movie might have been meant to indicate an archaic mode of speech. Tschild 13:47, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Not quite so. Using "Ihr" is still consistently used in movie dubbing when addressing royalty and the like. Since we have no "active" royalty in Germany, I couldn't say if it would acutally be used in real life situations. Thinking about it, Prince Phillip (The British Queen's husband) speaks German and I vaguely remember a TV interview where he was addressed with "Ihr". But that is very vague ... --Vertigo-1 19:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Esperanto

Since when is "ci" considered archaic. Esperanto was invented in the 19th Century. The purpose of "ci" is a poetical "you" (singular only), similar to "thou" in English. It was deliberately created this way, it is not archaic.

Are you sure? I haven't read the Fundamentoj de Esperanto recently, but AFAIR, it used "ci" for you-singular-informal. If you're right, it was created to mimic an archaic feature of English, but Zamenhof did not speak very good English, and is more likely to have used French (which has both T-V and plural/singular distinctions) as a model (and his pronouns generally have french roots (mi-moi, vi-vous, ci [tsi]-tu, ni-nous, etc.))--Taejo | Talk]] 18:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

It's only archaic if it became archaic between Unua Libro (which I haven't read) and Fundamento de Esperanto. In the grammar rules, he writes:

The personal pronouns are: mi, „I”; vi, „thou”, „you”; li, „he”; ŝi, „she”; ĝi, „it”; si, „self”; ni, „we”; ili, „they”; oni, „one”, „people”

And in exercise 16:

Mi legas. ― Ci skribas (anstataŭ „ci” oni uzas ordinare „vi”).

Translation: I read. ― You write (you usually use "vi" instead of "ci").

Furthermore, in Lingvaj Respondoj (in an entry dated February 1908):

La neuzado de “ci” tute ne estas senkonscia imitado de la ekzistantaj lingvoj, — kontraŭe, ĝi estas specialaĵo de la lingvo Esperanto, specialaĵo bazita sur pure praktikaj konsideroj kaj esploroj. La plej bona maniero kompreneble estus, se ni al pli-ol-unu personoj dirus “vi” kaj al unu persono ĉiam “ci” sed ĉiuj nuntempaj kulturaj popoloj tiel alkutimiĝis al la ideo, ke “ci” enhavas en si ion senrespektan (in a nutshell, don't use "ci" because it's rude; always use "vi" regardless of number). [2005-12-11; I would sign this if Wikipedia would keep me signed in long enough]

[edit] T-V adverb

I read neither German nor Hungarian, but I assume you are speaking of the Your version for T and V. Tell me if it is You. I added French and Slovene: ton/votre, and tvoj/vaš'. —Reply to David Latapie 11:26, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegian

To my generation it seems that polite De is only used by people being impolite these days: social services clerks to clients (the poor, druggies, the sick, refugees etc.), judges/police to accused etc. If you're not there as a "client" suddenly the person switches to "du" :) Basically, you can expect to be treated like shit if you're "De"d. I therefore recommend that non-Norwegians attempting the language avoid "De" as the plague, as it might get you a bloody nose in the wrong part of town. Kaleissin 21:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I just want to clarify the various forms in Norwegian. You have De/Dem (subject/object), used for both 2nd person singular and plural, and Deres, which is 2nd person possessive. There doesn't exist a word Dere (though dere is the regular 2nd person plural), though many seem to think so (including the poster above (not Kaleissin, the other one)).
FWIW, I've never heard any cops/social services persons use the formal form; I don't even think it sounds rude, just bizarre (I'd get thoughts of an Ibsen play if a cop said De to me).
Finally, there exists a phrase, å være dus (med noen) which literally means "to be 'saying du' (to someone)", or perhaps "to be on familiar terms (with someone)", which means the same as the French tutoyer, but has ditched the meaning of using the informal pronoun and kept the connotion of being on a confidential/familiar level with someone. Ilmarinen 22:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegian Nynorsk

From the article: "However, other dialects (and written Nynorsk), also have a T-V distinction in the plural."
What is meant by this? In nynorsk, you use De/Dykk just as De/Dem in bokmål, i.e. as subject/object. According to Norsk Språkråd:

"Og har vi først valt desse formene i for eksempel eit brev, bør vi halde fast ved dei gjennom heile brevet og ikkje veksle mellom du og De eller mellom de og De."

I removed that sentence, but if I've interpreted it wrongly just readd it (and please write why as well). Ilmarinen 22:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek section is odd

I'm confused by what the Greek section is tryign to say. That adding an epsilon onto the front of su to make it esu made it honoriffic? That's certainly not true in modern Greek. The way to make an address honoriffic in modern Greek is to address a person as if they were plural, including conjugation. I'll change shortly, but wanted to see if I was completely missing something first. --Delirium 11:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hungarian is getting huge

So, um. That Hungarian section? Kind of huge. I don't think it necessarily needs its own article, but maybe some of the information would be more at home on a page of Hungarian grammar, but I know no Hungarian and thus am utterly unqualified to summarize. UnDeadGoat 23:48, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps something like a set of articles “Politeness”/“Distance in [Language name]” would be nice, with only links to those articles (everything could be made a category instead of a main article if we do that) and perhaps really short summaries here in the main article. Compare the article on Romanization which I think is supposed to be that way. Wikipeditor

[edit] Hindi informal plural

I'm pretty sure that the informal Hindi plural is tum rather than aap. Aside from that, plural informal tum and formal aap often get -log added to distinguish from singular forms, thus the Hindi paradigm would look like this: very informal singular: tū informal singular: tum formal singular: āp informal plural: tum(log) formal plural: āp(log)

[edit] Related verbs, nouns and pronouns

The two columns labeled "T possessive" and "V possessive" should be removed from this table. The rest of the table lists the verbs and nouns that relate to the act of addressing someone as T or V. The last two columns list the T/V word itself, in just one of its cases, and that's unrelated and not needed. --ABehrens 17:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it...it was totally misplaced in the table. To explain what the table is about, the "verb" form describes the verb used to "say tu" to someone - in French, "tutoyer". The "noun" form describes the act of "saying tu" - in French, "tutoiement". The "possessive form"...has no meaning (that I can think of). Someone can go back in the history and dig out the relevant bits and stick them in the table of pronouns if worthwhile. Stevage 14:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it was an mportant piece of information, since its used when you talk to someoneeither using the T or the V (What's your name?). Mariano(t/c) 14:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian

The words "lei" and "loro" are usually capitalised when used to mean "you" in order to distinguish them (in written content) from their uses as "she" and "they". This distinction is not made in the article; indeed, it suggests that the words for "she" and "they" are "Lei" and "Loro", which is incorrect. I would change this myself, but I'm not clear how I can do this without changing the content significantly. — Paul G 10:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

As a native Italian speaker I would like to note that the forms "Il Signore/La Signora" with third person are perfectly understandable and are often used in the specific setting of addressing a customer in a shop, restaurant, hotel and similar. — Salvatore F

[edit] Origins

Do we know anything about the historical origins of these forms? Given that the use of the plural pronoun as a polite singular seems to be found in all Indo-European language sub-groups, and given that many non-Indo-Europoean languages have even more sophisticated systems of honorifics, it would seem to be very old. I once heard my school French teacher say it went back to the feudal system, but my hunch is that it is much older than that. I would guess it goes right back to PIE. That would mean that Latin and Greek dropped it, and that the romance languages and modern Greek reintroduced it (as a borrowing?) which is an oddity but not necessarily a problem. Does anyone know if there is research on this from historical linguistics? (At any rate, sociolinguistics and psycholinguistics have things to say about it, and it would be great if someone can add a paragraph about that.) --Doric Loon 11:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that, due the presence of formal speech in non-latinate languages, and even in non-indoeuropean languages, there is basically no way that this is as recent as the middle ages, or as localized as the Western Roman empire. For instance, Hindi and other Sanskrit-derived languages use an almost identical syntactic formal system to the Romance languages (the informal second person pronoun, "tum", even being a cognate for "tu"). This is problematic, because this wikipedia article seems to indicate that formal vs. informal pronouns emerged in the late Roman empire. This should be changed, as even a lay person like myself knows it can't possibly be so. I'm not sure if the late Roman derivation is a misunderstanding, or outdated research, or what, but it's clearly incorrect and should be replaced. I don't feel qualified to do this, but someone with a stronger footing in historical linguistics should probably come forward. geeksquad (talk) 17:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I just made some edits in the French section, and I admit that they are totally unverified for the moment, but judging by the ridiculous References section, I am not the only guilty party! Does anyone know the sociolinguistic literature on this general topic? And let's try to make the different language sections at least appear to be less anecdotal? CapnPrep 02:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swedish use of Ni

The background of the Swedish (in Sweden) is erroneous. There is much to be said about the so called Ni reform in the sixties.

[edit] Can we remove case forms from table?

I don't think the table listing T-V forms should include different case forms (e.g. thou/thee and tu/toi/te). The fact that 'thou' and 'tu' have object forms isn't relevant to their sociolinguistic use. Plus, they could be confused with alternate pronouns as some languages have more than one pronoun in a category. Does anyone else agree? Tocharianne 22:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I just opened this discussion page because i was going to ask the same question. If everybody else disagrees then case forms has to added for a lot of languages. --Orri Tómasson 02:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be two separate words for the second-person-singular-formal table entry for the English language? It looks like only the accusative/dative ("objective") case is given (the word 'you'). Is not the word for the nominative case in that table entry 'ye'? I think that it is a good idea to retain both the nominative and accusative cases for all of the English table entries. (Maybe it even would be a good idea to add the genitive and possessive cases, but I don't want to ask for too much all at once!) Table entries for the languages other than English can stay as they are or be updated as people feel might be helpful. Also, table entries with only a single word should indicate which case is being given. -RobertBlacknut 05:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Y as typesetters' substitute for Th

I've read somewhere that the letter "y" was used by early typesetters as a substitute for "th". This would explain the popularity of "you" (instead of thou) rising in the 15th cent. concurrently with printing (London printers were horrid spellers anyway) and constructions as "ye olde shoppe", etc. Has anyone heard of this or is this complete urban legend? István 14:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

See Thorn (letter) ... AnonMoos 15:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan

There's some controversy regarding vostè/vostès, despite its widespread usage. Being a calque from Spanish, many consider it doesn't belong at all into Catalan. Also, vostè is more common in bigger, industrialised settlemens, with larger immigrated population, while vós is prevalent in the countryside, which would seem to support the notion that vós is the proper, original Catalan usage.

[edit] French

I believe that the statement in this section regarding automatically using 'vous' to address someone you do not know is a bit out of date. I lived and traveled through much of France from 1999 to 2001 in my early 20's and doubt I was ever (except in a business setting) addressed as 'vous' by a French man in his 20's. Perhaps this is inferred in the phrase regarding 'abnormal' circumstances, however if this is still the case, I think the initial sentence is too strong. Ce n'est que mon avis. Brykupono 19:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "dubious-discuss" tag in "German"

I don't know which of these influences you were dubious about. The Italian I just deleted after reading "Italian: History" and finding what it said in accordance with a general Romance pattern; as for Danish and Norwegian, I know they have both been heavily influenced by German, and it would surprise me if this isn't part of it - I even think I've read it more than once. But: I am in no position to search books for the foreseeable future, so can anybody else help out? -Keinstein 21:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC) And now I undeleted the "Italian influence" after realizing what the editor meant was probably something more subtle than a simple calque. Need for an expert here. -Keinstein 21:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Danish De/du

I recently recieved a letter from Tax-office, demanding that I pay extra for last year, and, interestingly, they did write 'du' to me, even when taking 500 $ from me! On the other hand, when recieving a notification from the postal office, e.g. that there's a parcel waiting, they write De. Really it's that inconsistent. 83.90.233.226 09:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translating to English

In Serbian (as I suspect it in many other languages) we have a verb (persirati) for addressing people in plural as a sign of respect. Question is how to I translate the verb itself to English when it appears in a sentence. 213.198.233.80 10:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There is the same problem for Czech "tykat" and "vykat". English has no corresponding verbs. Looking at a dictionary, I can find phrases like "call/address sb as ty/vy", or "be on familiar terms with" (for "tykat"), etc. --Pajast 11:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The general practice is to translate it more generally, such as to "speak (in)formally with". You could do as Mr. Pajast's dictionary suggests, but unless the audience is familiar with Serb/Czech grammar the point will be lost on them anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.237.248 (talk) 21:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Czech Section

The article includes this text: In grammar, plural forms are used in personal and possessive pronouns (vy – you, váš – your) and in verbs, but not in participles and adjectives, they are used in singular forms (when addressing a single person). This is a difference from some other Slavic languages (Slovak, Russian, etc.)

Slovak is not different to Czech in this regard. One possible source of confusion is that the equivalent to přijat in Slovak is prijatý - so the you were accepted line would read bol si prijatý, boli ste prijatý, boli ste prijatí. The form with y is exclusively for masculine singular and the for with i is exclusively for virile plural - but I can see why boli ste prijatý might appear to a Czech as the use of the plural form. Am new to wikipedia so I am not going to edit the article directly - if no one disagrees with this please someone else do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.212.20.122 (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Swedish section

Important ! Nothing about "du reform" !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmak (talk • contribs) 06:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polish

Is the verb tykać really used by anybody? I'm a native speaker from southern Poland and I've never encountered it in Polish, even as a joke. One usually says być (z kimś) na ty, more rarely the mentioned Latinate per ty. Pittmirg 11:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)