Talk:T-54/55

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Contents

[edit] Bias

Removed extremely biased and poorly researched section which failed to take into account the age of the tank, and the fact of how successful it was when it was new.

A reasonable response to the removed section might be:

Q. How well would you expect an unmodified 1950s era tank to perform against the most recent American hardware? A. Not well at all, I imagine the result would be 'unimpressive'.

Are you even remotely aware of the primary reason for the original development of 105mm DU ammunition by the US?

T-54 and T-55 tanks engountered by Israeli M-48 and M-60 tanks were found to be unpenetrated in upwards of 40% of instances in which APFSDS was fired at them. 105mm DU for the M-60 tank was introduced in response to the fact that (contrary to what this section suggested) the T-54 and T-55 series tanks continued to perform well in combat long past what was expected to be their reasonable operating lifespan.

Also contrary to what was suggested in the removed section (which contained little to no unbiased, non-inflammatory, or even useful information), The Iraqi Brigade commander's tanks (Enigma), which were often T-55, Type-59 or Type-69-II (the latter two are Chinese copies) equipped with massive applique of concrete is recorded in one instance as having survived 3 hits from Milan missiles. Incongruous to the T-55's normal behaviour, but no less telling about the potential of upgrades to the platform.

Hear, hear! The T-54 should be judged in its context: that of WW2. It's a design with armour and firepower superior to the King Tiger, but, with only half the weight of the German behemoth, still more mobile than the Panther. Quite impressive.

MWAK--217.122.44.226 06:04, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the description of the T-54/55 as a "medium tank" to a "main battle tank", as that fits the tank better. "Medium tank" is more of a historical term than something that is used for modern tanks, as the distinction between heavy and medium tanks has all but disappeared.

--Martin Wisse 22:04, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lateral stabilisation

From memory, T54 and T55 used to be very similar. In my (albeit somewhat outdated) experience, the greatest difference between T54 and T55 was that the gun in T54 had only vertical gyro stabilization while in T55 it was stabilized both vertically and laterally. One unintended consequence of the lateral stabilzation was that, if one forgot to switch it off when going back on the road, the turret (and the gun) could end up pointing sideways thus collecting telegraph poles or anything else in that direction.


Can someone find a picture or diagram of this?

This? Image:Stabilser_on_t55.gif Wolfmankurd 17:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] T-80 is in service, not T-64

Someone wrongly said that the T-64 and T-72 were the main units, and the T-80 and T-90 in smaller numbers. Not true, Russia has about 4,000 T-80 tanks, and another 5,000+ T-72s, plus lots of T-62s which are mostly in reserve. Russia also has some 300 T-90s used in Siberia. 4,000 T-80s is hardly a small number, so I changed it. Plus, Russia doesn't even have T-64s. They were all given to fUSSR countries like Ukraine.

Is there a references with reasonably up-to-date figures? There are probably quite a few articles that could benefit from this info, e.g. Russian Army#Current Inventory. —Michael Z. 2006-07-27 19:43 Z

[edit] Type 69

The Type 69's service in Iraq could be mentioned here, but the detailed description really belongs in the article about the Type 69. —Michael Z. 2006-08-14 13:36 Z

[edit] Image:T-55 armyrecognition poland 004.jpg

The vehicle has that "dome" on the turret roof, so it must be T-54 ? Bukvoed 18:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 95,000

Does this figure include the Type 59 and 69, or the versions produced in Warsaw Pact countries? I had thought I had read elsewhere a much larger production number of "T-54/55 and variants," and was curious. I realize that production figures for the Type 69 should go in that article, but I thought it might be interesting to show these figures along with the T-55 to demonstrate just how unbelievably widespread this tank truly is.--Raulpascal 15:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be very interesting. From memory, I think the 95,000 figure includes actual tanks produced in the Warsaw Pact, not other vehicles based on the hull, and not Chinese tanks.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-15 16:54 Z
Zaloga (2004) estimates the W-P production at about 76,000; a 95,000 estimate would have to include Chinese production. Zaloga only mentions a 9000 number for the initial Type 59. --MWAK 16:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Oops, sorry for improvising. —Michael Z. 2006-09-18 03:44 Z

The Military Channel and their show Top Ten Tanks and some other sources say that all together 95,000 T-54/55s were made. They are all Soviet made. And they showed a HUGE field with just 1000's of tanks lined up.(Wiki General 21:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC))

Soviet production certainly wasn't 95,000 :o). Zaloga (2004) gives a maximum estimate of about 54,750 and even that is probably a few thousand too high. The best solution would be to combine the Zaloga (2004) T-54 estimate of 24,750 with the Zaloga (1999) T-55 estimate of 27,500 for a total of about 52,000. We can be pretty sure about this for the simple reason we could check the Soviet and other WP 1988 holdings under the CFE-treaty. Indeed we can only account for about 65,000 WP vehicles, including exports. Maybe the deficit is standing on that field ;o).--MWAK 08:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The CFE Treaty only covers Europe so you won't find the thousands of "Soviet" tanks that are located behind the Ural mountains in the annual data exchanges. dendirrek (talk) 14:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Usally programs like the History Channel and The Military Channel are right. Otherwise it would not make sense to show the programs. And I would not doubt the 95,000 number, because the T-55 was designed to combat the Americans and all other Soviet threats during the Cold War. If the Cold War had ever gone hot, the T-55 would have rolled out onto the battlefield all over Europe. Because Soviet doctrine calls for large numbers of manpower and equiment to overpower the enemy. Eventully they took the T-62 as their top tank. But they continued to create large numbers of T-55's for export and such. In either case...the T-55 is the worlds most-produced tank in history anyway u cut it. Next would come the T-34 with 58,000 produced and 40,000 or so M4 Shermans.(Wiki General 09:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC))

I would always prefer figures from an academic book, or cited references from a popular book to figures from a television show. TV documentaries are made on tight deadlines and assign more importance to visual impact, while book references are double-checked (but even good books publish mistakes, and it's always good to confirm with independent sources).
Actually, according to our articles 84,070 T-34 tanks were built, plus 13,170 T-34-based guns, and about 50,000 Shermans, plus derivatives. But if only 65,000 T-54/55 tanks were built, this doesn't jibe with the common story that there were more built than T-34s. —Michael Z. 2006-09-21 15:11 Z
Well, most T-34 estimates limit themselves to the Soviet production before 1947, after which year data become real murky. The 95,000 number is from estimates including speculation about Chinese production, usually put at about 20,000, the minimum needed to make all units attain their organic strength plus the 50% materiel reserve you need to compensate for the poor reliability. And when I was young, the common story was that the T-34 had been the most-produced tank :o).--MWAK 17:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Info the on T-34 is wrong. The T-55 whether the number of 95,000 is right or not is regardless the most-produced tank EVER! The T-55 is seen in far more countries and in larger numbers then any other tank. Offical production numbers for the T-34 is said to be 58,000 or so. And I would take what the Military Channel said as true. Cause the show was fairly indepth. And sources for shows like that are usally right, otherwise they would not be educational. They had real/offical military specialists and such on the show Top Ten Tanks. They took the best tanks and compared them. The scales were measured on firepower, armor, mobility, fear factor and production. I forget how the exact list went but I think it was: M4 Sherman - 10, Merkava - 9, T-54/55 - 8, Challenger 1 - 7, Panzer mk4 - 6, Centurion - 5, WW1 Tank - 4, Tiger 1 - 3, M1 Abrams - 2, & the T-34 -1. Now while I would not overall take the list itself entirly serious. They did collect some very good footage for every tank and they put some very good detail into each tank and why they thought it was good and so. I saw some other tank lists on the net, and most of them did not even have the Tiger Tank. No tank list is accurate without the Tiger.(Wiki General 19:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiki General (talk • contribs) .

Production summary, from Zaloga (2004), T-54 and T-55 Main Battle Tanks 1944–2004

T-54 series (p 11)
 Soviet Union     24,750
 Warsaw Pact       5,465
 China (Type 59)   9,000+
 China (Type 69)       ?
 China (Type 79)     519 (originally called Type 69-III; p 38)
 China (Type 88)       ? (originally called Type 80 and Type 80-II)
 Total           ±40,000 (not counting associated specialized 
                          armored vehicles on the T-54 chassis)

T-55 (p 14–15)
 Soviet Union    ±30,000
 Poland           ±7,000
 Czechoslovakia    8,477 (3,377 T-55, 3,820 T-55A, 1,280 T-55AK1)
 Romania            ±400 (TR-580/TR-77)
 Total           ±45,877
 
Both T-54 and T-55
 Grand total     ±85,877

 —Michael Z. 2006-10-04 03:53 Z

To further complete the figures above: the PLA's inventory of Type 69/79's according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies book series "The Military Balance", peaked at around 1,200 tanks in the year 2000. The January-May 2001 edition of Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment: China and Northeast Asia issue put this number much lower, at around 300. It is possible that IISS is counting both active and inactive vehicles, though this may not be the explanation as IISS does not sufficiently explain their figures. By 2002 that number had declined to around 150 Type 69s and 500 Type 79s. Further reductions by 2003 brought the number of Type 79s down to 300 tanks. Further you could count the Type 69-II's, the Thai Army's Type 69-II's, the twin 37-mm SPAAG, the twin 57-mm Type 80 SPAAG, the Type 84 Armored Vehicle Launch Bridge (AVLB) and the Type 653 Armored Recovery Vehicles that all are built on the chassis of the Type 69.
About 400-500 tanks of Type 88 and its variants (Type 80, Type 80-II, Type 88, Type 88B and Type 88A) were produced between 1981-1995. MoRsE 05:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Production summary, from Zaloga (2004), T-54 and T-55 Main Battle Tanks 1944–2004? - How can that list be from 1944 to 2004? The first T-54 did not appear untill 1949. Wiki General 01:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the title of the book. The table above summarizes the production figures which are spread out in several pages of its text. The book deals with the development of the T-54 starting with its precursor, the transitional T-44 tank, which entered service in 1944 (the first T-54 actually entered service in 1947). —Michael Z. 2006-10-06 03:25 Z

[edit] Errors

There are many errors in this Article,look at the german Wiki.The secondary weapon was NOT a SMGT,it was the heavy PKT-Machinegun and so it goes on... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.174.32.15 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] James Bond

I've tried hard to decide that this is notable, but I don't really see how it is. A T-55 was made up to look like a T-80BV, and used in a chase scene in the movie. Fun scene, but viewers didn't know or care that it was a T-55. It teaches nothing about the T-55 tank. I'll remove it, but feel free to put forward an argument for retaining it that I haven't thought of. —Michael Z. 2006-10-29 23:32 Z

I don't think it was a T-55. The Russians were using T-72's from teh 70's and by the 90's T-80's were in use. Tourskin.

[edit] Comparison of guns

I don't know why people keep insisting that the 100mm D-10T main gun of the T-55 is superior to the main guns of the T-55's Western counterparts like the M-46/48 Patton series and the British Centurion. If people would use the very link from the T-55 re: the D-10T gun, they would find that the Wikipedia article on that gun states that the D-10T is inferior to the Tiger II's main gun. If people would investigate further and consult the gun penetration tables from wwiivehicles.com and compare the penetration performance of the American 90mm, the British 20 pdr, the German 88mm L/70, and the Soviet 100 mm D-10T, they would find that the D-10T is inferior to all the others. In fact, the 90mm American gun in wwiivehicles.com is an earlier version. By the time of the T-55, the American 90mm have been lengthened and become much more powerful.

The fact is, the main gun of the T-54/55 series when it first arrived was an obsolete relic of WWII. Its penetration is much less than that of its Western counterparts. On the other hand, the T-55s extremely thick front turret armor may be able to shrug off even the superior firepower of Western guns.

I will monitor this and continue keeping the information on the T-55's main gun accurate.

67.99.248.194 06:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Victor67.99.248.194 06:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there any performance figures which provide a better comparison? I notice that according to the tables at D-10 tank gun and KwK 43, the D-10 actually gets slightly better penetration with comparable ammunition, but the presumed angle of the target armour is different. The 20 pdr table values are for APDS, presumably much superior to the Soviet APHE shown. How do we know what the D-10's penetration is at 30° to compare to the M3's?—again, the two sets of figures are hard to compare, but with similar ammunition the Soviet gun's penetration shown is better.
Do you know anything about the the D-10TG and D-10T2S guns—their performance and when they entered service? —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 16:37 Z
Answered my own question after a bit of research: I'll add this info to the articles shortly. —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 21:07 Z
Unfortunately, direct comparison of armor penetration figures is often misleading. Different countries used different measurement methods; many figures were actually estimations based on other results; many of those estimates turned out to be unrealistic... etc. I'd suggest to avoid direct comparison of guns from different countries/periods if differences between their penetration figures with similar ammunition is not too big... say 10-15% or less. Bukvoed 17:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, the comparison of the D-10 to any of the other guns suffers from similar, hard-to-quantify differences: 0° vs 30° angle, APHE vs APDS ammunition, etc. Of course there even more factors than the ones you cite, like ammunition quality and availability, rate of fire, actual field performance, technical improvements of guns and ammunition, etc. Also, should guns be compared "fairly", based on similar ammunition, or in absolute terms, based on the best ammunition available. It would be better to cite one or more experts who qualitatively compare the guns than to rely on any figures at all. Perhaps the significance of such comparisons with ordnance whose actual capabilities are subject to state secrets, propaganda and misinformation should be minimized, unless we can describe the circumstances of actual field tests (which can be done, in some cases). —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 20:35 Z

[edit] Perspective

Okay, I did a little research and added some information. I'll add some more about ammunition improvements to D-10 tank gun. Still no direct comparisons.

But it's not fair to make a straight comparison between the 36-tonne T-54's gun and that of the 70-tonne King Tiger, without mentioning that the 46-tonne, 122mm-armed IS-2 was in service since 1944. It should also be noted that the 52-tonne Centurion was heavier than any Soviet heavy tank. —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 21:42 Z

The fact is, the main gun of the King Tiger, which if you research it was first used in the 24 ton Nashorn tank destroyer first deployed successfully in the Battle of Kursk in 1943. One does not need a 70 ton tank to mount the 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71. I will return the segment on the King Tiger's gun.

67.99.248.194 07:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Victor

This is ridiculous. Comparing apples to oranges. The Germans didn't manage to get this gun into a medium tank either, so what does this prove? We don't write that the Tiger II sucks because the ISU-152 had a better gun, or because the Soviets managed to build a 152-mm gun which could be pulled by a truck!. Please try to get some perspective. —Michael Z. 2006-12-16 08:47 Z
True. It seems rather pointless to compare the T-55 with the Nashorn. If you look up its characteristics , you'll find it was only a lightly armoured, open-topped gun platform, and had none of the capabilities of a tank. For a TD with equivalent performance, you should take the Jagdpanther that weighs 50 tonnes! Also, the T-55 and King Tiger are in a different class alltogether. The King tiger is a heavy tank and its Soviet equivalent would be the IS-2/IS-3/T-10M series not the T-55.Raoulduke47 13:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. Even so, a straight comparison of the IS2 to the King Tiger would be inadequate if it didn't point out that the Soviet heavy tank was in the same weight class as the German medium Panther. The success of Soviet tank designs was partly due to the imposition of very strict weight limits. They wouldn't even have considered building a seventy-tonner like the King Tiger—the 45-tonne Soviet heavy tanks were constantly on the verge of cancellation, and super-heavy tanks were considered completely impractical. —Michael Z. 2006-12-17 16:29 Z

[edit] Citations needed

  • The post-WWII British Centurion Mk 3 carried a superior 20 pounder (84 mm) gun,...
  • The D-10 also had slightly inferior armour penetration compared to the U.S. Pershing tank's 90mm M3 gun.

I'm still doubtful of these two statements. The 105-mm Royal Ordnance L7 was specifically developed in response to the T-54 tank, and mounted on the UK Centurion and US Patton tanks around 1959. Does anyone have sources comparing these other guns to the D-10?

I bet its again D-10 APHE vs M3 APDS. Comparing APHE only, D-10 had considerably better penetration and effective range. 195.98.64.69 04:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Cuban T-54s faced South African Centurions (Olifants) in Angola. Does anyone know of a balanced account of their relative performance? —Michael Z. 2006-12-17 22:42 Z

I found some references to real-world capabilities. Zaloga (2004:40):

By the standards of the 1950s, the T-54 was an excellent tank, combining lethal firepower, excellent armor protection and good reliability in a tank that was lighter and smaller than comparable Western designs such as the British Centurion or the American M48 Patton. On the negative side, the T-54 was forced to rely on HEAT ammunition in tank engagements due to the lack of effective sub-caliber armor piercing ammunition until the 1960s, and this type of ammunition was not particularly accurate at long ranges when used with the T-54's simple fire control system.

In an older book, Cockburn (1983:127) writes:

Back in the 1960s, when the T-55 was the main Soviet battle tank, the U.S. Army insisted on the basis of engineering calculations derived from measuring covertly obtained sample tanks, that the T-55's 100-millimeter gun was quite powerful enough to knock holes in the U.S. M-48s; similarly, the Army claimed the American tanks could destroy the T-55 with the U.S. 90-millimeter weapon. When the two tanks finally confronted each other in the 1967 Middle East war, it transpired that neither of them had the wherewithal to punch holes in the other's frontal armor.

Back to Zaloga:

By the time of the 1973 October war, the T-54A and T-55 tanks ... already more than two decades old by this time, the T-55 was past its prime. The Israeli Centurions had been uparmed with the 105mm gun and the newer M60A1 offered better armor and firepower than the T-55. Yet the T-55 was far from obsolete, and with the newer sub-caliber ammunition, was capable of penetrating the thick turret armor of the Israeli tanks at two kilometers.

  • Andrew Cockburn (1983). The Threat: Inside the Soviet Military Machine. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-394-52402-0.

Time to update the article. —Michael Z. 2006-12-18 04:12 Z

By the way, now this tank article cites real-world performance of tanks pitted against each other, rather than comparing disconnected laboratory statistics about their guns. I think this is an improvement, by an order of magnitude. —Michael Z. 2006-12-18 06:24 Z

What a piece of coldwar BS propaganda: "South Vietnamese M48 Pattons (former worn-out US M48s) were able to destroy T-54s at 2,500 to 3,000 m, in many cases without losses to their own". I doubt that either tank can relaibly hit anything at such distances, much less penetrate (except for HEAT round maybe, but HEAT is even less accurate after 2km). Thats 60s, not 90s, and both tanks weren't latest models even at that time. Not to say that ARVN armored troops were annihilated very quickly when they lost US support. 195.98.64.69 04:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Given the disgraceful performance of the ARVN when it wasn't being given massive American air support (and its mediocre performance when it was), I doubt that this is anything more than propaganda. Even if it were true, it didn't seem to help them a whole lot. Kensai Max 16:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

As an addition to my above comment, if ARVN tankers were blasting VPA tanks at 3000 meters without losses of their own, the Vietnamese communists used PT-76 amphibious light tanks as the mainstay of their armored forces for most of the Vietnam War. Although the emphasis on Vietnamese tanks during the 1975 offensive tends to be on their T-54s, I doubt that their MBTs made up more than a fraction of their armor. While a T-54 getting shot up at that distance by an M48 or M41 is ridiculous, tin-can PT-76s getting knocked out and subsequently claimed as T-54s is entirely plausible. Kensai Max 00:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Advantages and Limitations

In this website, http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/t-54.htm, are a great number of information re: the T-54/55 series. Of special interest are the sections on "capabilities" and "limitations". I will try to work on adding information to the Wiki article, however I may not be able to quickly complete this project. Perhaps other editors/researchers on Wiki would like to assist? 67.99.248.194 08:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Victor

Use such unreferenced web sources with caution, as some of it is clearly dated or only valid in a narrow context in this case. The M60 Patton tank which is compared was introduced 13 years later, a contemporary of the T-62 and later T-64. I am suspicious of the statement that external diesel fuel cells make the tank vulnerable. The statement that the T-55 is not airtight is obsolete, as of the adoption of the improved POV NBC-protection suite in 1963, I think. —Michael Z. 2006-12-17 21:36 Z

[edit] Turret machine gun

Hey, it say that the machine gun mounted on top of the turret is a DShK, but some pictures show a twin-barreled machine gun that doesn't look like a DShK. Can anyone identify what sort of machine gun that was? 24.250.1.196 19:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Those are the recoil springs on the dushka's mount on the loaders hatch. The mount is shown empty in most of the shots, but you can clearly see the gun barrel and the recoil in the last photo, of the Croatian tank firing on the range. There's also a good close-up photo in DShK. —Michael Z. 2007-06-05 17:23 Z

[edit] Fume extractor

Is a fume extractor the same thing as a bore evacuator? If so, the link needs to be fixed, or a redirect added.

I've redirect the link from fume extractor. —Michael Z. 2007-06-05 17:20 Z

[edit] T-54 with M-18 Hellcat turret

I put in the section in the foreign users, the reference is the Tankograd Gazette which has some excellent pictures and an article, however, I'm still not sure how to link the footnotes. How do you get them to appear as different numbers for one? Anyway, if anyone else can sort that I'd be grateful. Douglasnicol 16:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

There is an explanation of how to use footnotes here: Wikipedia:Footnotes. Bukvoed 18:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, the reference is now sorted, it's a rather intriguing conversion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Douglasnicol (talk • contribs) 20:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Unclear operators

Because one user had an issue with the fact that I couldn't provide information about each user and whenever yes or not are they still operating those MBTs I created Unclear operators list.

It's not about what issue I had, it's about what the article looks like after you change it.

Don't add headings with nothing under them. This is not an unfinished draft, it's an article meant to be read right now.

Don't make up headings to make a point. Those operators are neither "clear" nor "unclear": they are merely operators, past and present. —Michael Z. 2007-08-18 00:26 Z

[edit] Edit to Service History

I removed the propaganda about North Vietnamese tanks being blasted apart by ARVN M-48s and M-41s (with a big 76mm gun). It was facially ridiculous, I don't care if it was cited. I've provided a cite for the new statement and can provide more if needed. Kensai Max 00:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Czechoslovak manufactuer

Does anyone know the name of Czechoslovak manufacturer of T-54/T-55? SuperTank17 14:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

ZTS Martin dendirrek (talk) 13:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
ZTS Martin also produced the crane tank JVBT-55A (jeřábovi-vyprošťovací-buldozerovi tank) which was NOT produced in the former Yugoslavia (where it was in service however and known as TZI-JVBT). Czechoslovakia produced several recovery and bridge-layer tanks for the CSLA and the other WarPac armies, inluding the Soviet army! From 1967, 680 JVBT's were produced, including 172 JVBT-55KS for export to non WarPac states like Iraq etc. East-Germany received 119 JVBT-55A between 1968 and 1979 and called them Kranpanzer T-55TK.
The MT-55 bridge-layer tank was also produced by the then "TS Martin" in Slovakia, and NOT in the Soviet Union. 1,762 vehicles were build, including 183 MT-55KS export versions and 301 hulls for the East-German BLG-60 project. dendirrek (talk) 15:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
What are your sources? Can you give me the addresses of websites you're using? Can you give me the names of books/military magazines you're using as reference? - SuperTank17 (talk) 12:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tanks with -1 designation.

I have a problem with those tanks because it says that tanks with "-1" designation are tanks with V-46 engine from T-72. However in T-62 article it says that tanks with "-1" designation have 690 hp (515 kW) V-46-5M engine. While another site says that T-62s with "-1" designation have a "V-46 T-72-type" engine.

Can anyone clear this up? —SuperTank17 13:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The T-55 and -62 models with the -1 suffix are powered by the 690hp engine V-46-5M which was derived from the T-72's 780hp V-46-6. dendirrek (talk) 12:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] T-55 in Israel (Tiran-5)

On Global Security it says that in 2006 Israel used 126 of both Tiran-5 (modified T-55) and Tiran-6 (modified T-62). However in the T-55#Israel section it clearly says that Tiran-5s are no longer in service with Israeli army.

Can somebody clear this up? - SuperTank17 (talk) 18:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question on Improvised SLA APC

Does the T-54 chassis-based APC used by the SLA have a name on it? Ominae (talk) 09:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another version

There is one model missing - in the early 2000s, the Finnish company Patria developed a self-propelled artillery vehicle, by combining a T-55 with a domestically produced turret and a Tampella 155 mm gun. This was a prototype intended for the Egyptian market (the Egyptian Army was at the time purchasing towed 155 mm guns from Finland and were looking to upgrade its self-propelled artillery units as well). I have never seen any designation for this prototype, but I have seen pictures of it, e.g. in the book "From Tampella to Patria 70 years of Finnish heavy weapons production" (ISBN 952-5026-26-4). I also remember seeing the picture in the "Soldier of Finland" magazine (Suomen Sotilas). I don't think that the prototype was that successful, perhaps the gun and turret was too heavy for the chassis. Anyhow, I haven't seen or heard of it in years, so it is probably filed and forgotten by now. --MoRsE 22:55, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting the T-54/T-55 article

The T-54/T-55 article has reached a size of 85,691 bytes and it will still increase in the future.

My proposal is to split this article into T-54 article and T-55 article. It has been done a long time ago on other Wikipedias (for example Polish Wikipedia) and I don't see the reason for not doing it here since even in the "Soviet and post-Soviet armoured fighting vehicles after World War II" template the T-54 and T-55 tanks are listed separately. - SuperTank17 11:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I support the split. Although the T-54/55 can bee seen as the same tank with an evolutionary change...well...that is the case with most tanks. I did the same with the different Patton models some time back. --MoRsE 11:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
You're right SuperTank: the article is getting much too long. Go for it. dendirrek 13:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to come across as rude, but the article, split or not, is very hard to read as it is. It does seem much of the information is repeated in different places. For example, most Infoboxes for complex weapon systems don't include specs for every variant produced. They are usually specs of the most produced initial version. Don't get me wrong, it's a heck of a lot of work, but maybe we could arrange it better even while it's being split. Awotter (talk) 09:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Infobox here includes specs for Soviet/Russian versions as this is Soviet/Russian tank and most them were base models for vehicles made by other countries mentioned in T-55#International derivatives. Therefore I don't think there's anything wrong with it. - SuperTank17 (talk) 12:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
It's not that something is "right or wrong" it's is it as good as it can be and as accesible to a reader who isn't as into the "details" as some of us are. This page is the T-72 Infobox before you added all the information and after, [1], [2] , this was the most recent M4 article [3]. I think they show that you can organize complex technical articles and meet the needs of both groups.Awotter (talk) 13:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
The data that I inputed into the Infoboxes was generilized to make it more understandable to people who aren't "as into the "details" as some of us are".
And while we're on the subject of readability I think that the removal of most of the images made it harder to read the article. For example before you deleted the pictures from the main article and through them into the gallery a person who is reading for example about Iraqi T-55 Enigma could read the info about it and a look at the picture and therefore better understand what the article is talking about. IMHO we should restore some of the images for the reader's sake. - SuperTank17 (talk) 13:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
As I stated before, the gallery is a starting place and was only meant to address the fact that not all of the images placed in the article were absolutely necessary to illustrate a particular fact or section of the article. There are a number of different ways galleries can be used and they can even be in a section. The main problem with image use in Wikipedia is the fact that not everyone who reads an article is going to see what you see on a screen. Captions should not really be a place for information that can be included in the article, because there are users who can't or don't use images. Thanks. 21:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awotter (talk • contribs)
The fact that there are images on Wikipedia doesn't stop people who don't use pictures from reading the article. On the other hand the lack of images makes it harder for most people (let's face it, most of us use pictures if there are any when we're learning about something new) to understand the subject of the article. - SuperTank17 (talk) 21:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It might be better to split it into a general article about the tank, with a separate article about the variants, similar to the Sherman articles. I think that makes a lot more sense than a T-54 article and a T-55 article. DMorpheus (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I'm getting a little concerned that the massive use of images are starting to hamper the readability of the article. I would consider using the "gallery" function to display the alternative models. You just put in the code like this and add the images:

<gallery>
Image:test.jpg|Text
Image:test.jpg|Text 2
Image:test.jpg|Text 3
</gallery>

...and this will come out:

Text

Text 2

Text 3

--MoRsE (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. What won't fit in the text I will redirect there. - SuperTank17 (talk) 19:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and added a categorized gallery and moved a majority of the images there to help make the article what I hope is a bit more readable per some of the manual of style guidelines. It's just a starting point. Some maybe better back in the sections, if you do move one from the gallery, please consider replacing it or to make sure the rows continue to have four images until the last row. Thanks. Awotter (talk) 12:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed unsourced information PRC/US prototype

The information in the article detailing a joint production prototype by the USA and PRC appears to be untrue, I could not find a single reference to such a vehicle. Germany produced a similar vehicle that was described in the article the Jaguar 1 & 2 and that's as near as I could find. The reference that was cited has no such vehicle or information that matched. If I'm wrong that's fine, but I'd like to see detailed, verifiable references on claims like that. I found a reference to retrofit and upgrade packages produced by US companies, so I rv my deletions, added info to the appropriate section with a reference. I still left in a citation request for the development details because I still could not find the specifics. The JED website listed has different info and the single page linked to for many of the references is only for one page and that needs to be addressed throughout the article because there still appear to be errors. I did leave out the United States section, private companies producing prototype retrofit packages for other countries vehicles is not the same as a sanctioned US Armed Forces production program and isn't appropriate here. Sorry for the initial skepticism. Awotter (talk) 06:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image test page up

(I recycle), you can see some image options. There is a multiple image frame with caption. And two collapsible image galleries (second has They have image place holders for now. Took down test pageAwotter (talk) 05:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Areas of article that might need improving?

In my opinion, some of the sections have information that seems to read like original research. That may be because of the way a sentence is written, no inline citation, or repeated one source citations with no direct link to the information cited or a combination of those. I know English is not everyone's first language, nor is it easy to convey technical information sometimes (in any language), but we have to be careful to avoid making conclusions or statements (valid as they may be) without making sure they have a strong reference/secondary source or sources. Awotter (talk) 06:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you please give us some examples of this original research? - SuperTank17 (talk) 10:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I've already indicated my concerns, the two most important sections, design and service history have six or seven inline citations, three of which are from books by the same co-author and only one of those references a page number (Zaloga) The others are from a website that does not use citations, although it cites sources used and one that is in Polish. Also, the use of separate Notes and reference sections (as I have learned from recent experience) can be very hard to follow past a certain point In many larger articles they are combined and notes are used to expand point referenced in the main section.
Those aren't insurmountable problems, but they need to be seen in the light of guidelines governing statements and acceptable sources. For example, if on the English language version you cite a fact from a foreign language source it is suggested you post the relevant text as part of the reference so it can be checked. I have purposely not made any changes to the text other than what I first saw when I came here so I could start checking what is sourced and what is not. That's also why this discussion is here, so that other editors can also do the same and the article can be improved where needed. Awotter (talk) 10:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I presume that the Polish source that you metioned is this website: http://www.powstanie-warszawskie-1944.ac.pl/whatfora_sentymenty.htm
And the part that you're questioning is this one: "Polish tankers said that it [DShK 1938/46 12.7 mm heavy machine gun] was useless even for that since even from the range of 400 m the accuracy was fairly poor."
The person that made that website is a former Polish tanker and personally took part in Martial Law in Poland. He was part of a T-55A crew and had his experiences with that tank and he explains them there. - SuperTank17 (talk) 11:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Supertank, before this goes farther, please do not misunderstand what I am getting at, these are not specific criticisms aimed at any one editor or (as of yet) specific disputed facts, What concerns me is the overall tone and quality of the article as it relates to what makes a good article. What makes an article good is a firm foundation of notability, verifiability and a neutral pov when it comes to statements that can appear to be a synthesis of primary sources, those need to be balanced with strong secondary references and parts of the article are lacking them or are using references that are less than strong. I just quoted the Polish information as an example that there are guidelines it helps to follow, that was all it was. Right now there's a lot to clean up, most of it's just technical but when I first made some changes it appeared you were concerned and I don't want you to be. This probably says all this much better than I can WP:MILMOS (talk) 09:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Panther

If editors want to add information and references to the article about the relative merits and demerits of the T-55 that's fine. The lead quote referring to the T-34 is referenced and is a generally accepted statement and goes toward explaining the notability of its successor. That sentence is not an appropriate place to debate another tank that has nothing to do with this article. The Panther may or may not have been qualitatively better than the T-34. but it is a stretch to even consider it as the best all around tank of the war because it came into the conflict relatively late, had numerous production problems in its initial production run and did not come close in numbers or variants to the T-34.Awotter (talk) 02:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] M41 Bulldog

User going by the name of Kensai Max seems to have an issue with the part of the article that clearly states T-54/T-55 tanks as being outperformed by M41 Bulldog and M48 Patton. The said user has been removing the said parts of the article without showing any kind of sources whatsoever and calling it a "propaganda". That's not how we treat fellow editors on this site. If we want to correct something in the article we show sources that can back up our claims. This is NOT a place for Original Research. - SuperTank17 (talk) 12:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you really mean that any POPULAR book (as long as it's in english) serves as rock-solid SOURCE, even IF it disagrees with laws of physics and widely available numerical data (ie for penetration/armour)? (Btw M48A3 has very similar frontal armour, definitely NOT "superior"; now we can judge quality of such "sources"!) And worse, next questionable claim is based upon preceding questionable claims ("...As the T-54 was outperformed by the M48 and even M41 in Vietnam, and the Indian Army..."). Now don't tell me it's not a demagogy and propaganda. 80.82.36.55 (talk) 22:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Look, if you can prove that the source is not right in some respects then please do so don't just write claims that it's a "propaganda", ok? Can you please do this instead of calling it all a propaganda and just deleting stuff? If you're right then I'm sure that you can rationally explain your point without all that propaganda bullshit and even find a source that can prove that you are right. This Wikipedia, we do NOT apply facts by shouting them to the bottom of our throats. - SuperTank17 (talk) 13:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
First, i am not Kensai Max, and i didn't (yet) delete anything (despite this part of the article being full of blatantly false and dubious claims). Second, i really have not much to prove here - because ONLY POSITIVE STATEMENTS DO NEED ANY PROOF! So how these "sources" prove THEIR point? Do they contain post-action investigation reports, with nice photos of 75mm holes in burned T-54s? Of course not, because NVA was left in control of battlefield after most (if not ALL) relevant battles. These claims are based on nothing better than memoirs of the BEATEN side.
Now let's dig into history books (for western sources, i mostly use Ph. Davidson's book "Vietnam At War. The History 1946-1975", so you can check me here). The 1st time NVA ever used T-54s (in SMALL numbers alongside usual PT-76s and T-34s) was as late as 1971 during that disastrous ARVN raid into Laos (Lam Son 719). Involved ARVN forces had M41s only at this time (M48s were issued as a result of this battle, which speaks volumes by itself; M41s were considered definitely inadequate against such threats as T-54). Even US sources (eg those used by Davidson) claim losses of confirmed 88 NVA tanks (ALL types; severity and exact composition of these losses unknown) to 54 ARVN tanks (permanent, must be M41s only) (app. 1.5:1 ratio), and even these mostly to infantry and US airpower (USAF alone lost 108 helicopters destroyed and 618 damaged supporting this operation). There are even more specific numbers, such as 59 NVA tanks lost to airstrikes (hence only 29 to other causes, and quite opposite 1:2 ratio in favor of NVA). Can you say, how many of these 29 were T-54s? And then, how many of that (even smaller) portion fell prey to these puny 75mm Bulldog guns? And i'd bet ARVN lost much more tanks to enemy tank guns than NVA (though still not as much as to RPGs and ordinary artillery).
Later on, overall picture remains the same: unlike Middle East and India, tanks rarely fought other tanks in open battle, sheer weight of tank losses to both sides was to mines, infantry AT weapons and (in case of NVA) enemy airpower. Only in very last stages of the war NVA used big numbers of tanks simultaneously, sometimes leading to tank-vs-tank shootouts, and by that time ARVN was already in very bad shape and lost badly. One curious pattern of events repeated again and again: after yet another reported "lopsided victory" ARVN armoured forces fled the area, completely disintegrating in the process. :)
So, we can conclude that reports about M48 vs T-54 performance are highly questionable (given the outcome of final large-scale campaigns of this war, where these two models had decent chance of engaging one another), and any mention of M41s "outperforming" T-54/55s is absolute, ridiculous, blatant BULLSHIT! 80.82.55.38 (talk) 21:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Excellent work, 80.82.55.38. By the way, there seems to be only one confirmed battle between NVA tanks and US (i mean - not ARVN) tanks: on 3rd march 1969 eight PT-76 led a night assault on US camp in Ben Het. Americans were warned and reinforced the garrison with M48 platoon. One PT-76 was lost on mines, and two more were shot by M48s (americans lost one M48). So vietnamese T-54 never fought american M48s at all, and any south vietnamese sources of the last stage of war are a joke. The entire "Other conflicts" fragment is indeed full of propaganda and ridiculous fantasies. As there are no objections still, i will edit it in a couple of days, if no one else does. 195.218.210.139 (talk) 16:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
A small correction: no M48A3 used during the battle of Ben Het was lost. Only one was lightly damaged which can be explained by the fact that the 76,2 mm tank gun used in PT-76 was considered light for a post WWII tank and it lacked the punch needed to pose a greater threat to M48A3. The same thing happened during Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 when Indian PT-76 light tanks were effective against older designs such as M24 Chaffee but couldn't face M48 and Type 59 main battle tanks.
I agree that ~the entire conflicts section is rather small. When I'll have more I'll try to make it bigger. - SuperTank17 (talk) 22:31, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The performance of the M41's main gun against a T-55 would have been very, very marginal. Figures are easily available online. Also, given the total collapse of the ARVN in the face of the VPA I wouldn't be making any big claims about their tank-fighting skills or taking claims made by them about successful encounters with the enemy seriously. They were few and far between. Kensai Max (talk) 03:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If you HAVE sources that can prove your claims than please use them and don't just violently remove parts of the article without showing any kind of prove that you're right. - SuperTank17 (talk) 10:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ho Chi Minh Campaign

Claiming that ARVN tankers enjoyed any measure of success against the VPA is like claiming Saddam Hussein's army put up a good fight in 1991. The proof is in the pudding. Kensai Max (talk) 15:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox cleanup

Template:Infobox weapon "may be used to summarize information about a particular weapon or weapon system." It is not meant to replace the article. It is not meant to present information about multiple weapons. Individual fields are meant to contain simple data items, not the complete data from another infobox or two [secondary armament lists an AK-47's ammunition count!?]. Some fields contain data for two named models plus one unidentified one, others simply have data for one, falsely implying that it represents all.

This is unreadable, confusing, and misleading.

Let's pick a representative model, and clean up the infobox. If there isn't a better suggestion, I'll enter the specs for the T-55.

Significant differences between models can be shown in a table, à la T-34#Table of tank models. —Michael Z. 2008-04-28 15:05 Z

The ammunition count for AK-47 is about the number of rounds the tank carriers for this weapon.
About the idea of "cleaning up" the infobox: I would prefer to put one main variant in the infobox (T-55 or T-55A) and put the rest of the differences between variants in a table. - SuperTank17 (talk) 15:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The number of rifle bullets that its crewmembers carry isn't a characteristic of this vehicle at all, and anyway that level of detail doesn't belong in an infobox summary. If it happens to always be equipped with so many magazine racks, that can be mentioned where it is relevant in the text.
The rest sounds good. I nominate T-55 for the infobox, which doesn't differ much in basic characteristics from the T-54, as representing the tank series as it was initially fielded and continues to be used in less industrialized countries. Subsequent versions were meant for a different battlefield, alongside the significantly improved T-62 and next-generation T-64. —Michael Z. 2008-04-28 18:51 Z

[edit] Dispute year of development and first production

The reference in front of me[1] states that the T54 was developed in 1954 and was "Standard equipment of the medium-tank regiments and of the tank battalions in the mechanised infantry since 1955." That is not shortly after WWII, and is certainly not 1947. I am trying to ensure that Tank is accurate. Dhatfield (talk) 12:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Resolved. Dhatfield (talk) 07:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Remove Pancerni.net cites

The Pancerni.net[4] source seems to get its basic facts wrong, i.e. places start of T-55 production 3 years too early (see my undo[5]), and it doesn't cite any other sources in turn. All of its citations in the article should be fact-checked, and it should be removed from the article. —Michael Z. 2008-05-24 15:30 z

Errors happen. If you would look at some American sources about Soviet/Chinese/North Korean AFVs you would see that this is nothing compared to what they state.
Regards. - SuperTank17 (talk) 16:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
It's an error to change figures in Wikipedia articles based on crap sources. The "reference" in question has a dozen ads, but the author hasn't even bothered pasting his body text so that it's readable: "chroniony by³ od góry p³yt± o grubo¶ci 33 mm", so why on Earth would someone assume that his figures were more reliable than what was already here? Please avoid using unreferenced hobby and ad-bait web sites—see WP:SOURCES for some advice. —Michael Z. 2008-05-24 17:29 z
If you were to judge the cites by whether they have or don't have adds than you could classify almost every cite based source as unreliable. Also this cite has very few adds. Just one on the top and one on the right. There no pop up adds like the ones you get on many cites.
Also I don't understand your problem with the text you quoted. The author wrote in Polish language (I advise you to read about it) and used Polish letters (This could come in handy for you as well) which you can't see because you don't have the appropriate font. So don't go accusing the author for writing in his native language. It's like I would accuse you of speaking in English...
Regards. - SuperTank17 (talk) 17:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly twelve ads in three blocks, including the Firefox banner. After looking at the page more closely, I see that the text is correct, but the page has 58 validation errors, so perhaps this is why my browser was unable to display it using the correct character set, displaying letters as "³", "±", "¿", and "¶". I see also that there are some sources mentioned on another page, but it is not footnoted and the author is anonymous.
There are still two serious problems.
  1. This self-published site does not fit Wikipedia's description of a reliable source.
  2. An incorrect fact taken from the site replaced a correct fact in our article.
Please be careful, and try to use better sources. I'll calm down now. —Michael Z. 2008-05-25 00:32 z

[edit] Edit-warring

Please use edit summaries according to the guideline at Help:Edit summary. The talk page is for discussion of disputes, or use Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Please find a consensus, then update the article. If it will help to protect the article, just let me know and I will gladly do so. Regards. —Michael Z. 2008-06-11 19:30 z