Talk:Tākitimu
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Are you sure that the "a" of Takitumu is a long vowel? I've heard, it would come from the ck maori word "taki" meaning lead, guide, bring or take somebody with and of course tumu means "root","source". Takitumu is also the name of one the three tribes of Rarotonga. Acording to the local tradition this vaka was founded by Tangi'ia in thirteenth century. He fled Tahiti after a conflict with his brother Tutapu. On his way to Rarotonga, he met 'Iro and adopted one of his son, Tai te ariki also named Te ariki upoko tini, who would be the tupuna (ancestor) of one of the two actual ariki of Takitumu,Pa Tepaeru Teariki Upokotini Marie Ariki. I think she actually lives in NZ Two generations later, some Takitumu people went to New Zealand. They settled on the east coast of North Island. The ancestors of the New Zealand Takitumu migration were Paikea, Ira, Ruatapu, Hakiri rari, who were the sons of Motoro, himself another son of Tangi'ia Acording to Eldson Best, the name of the others vaka from Rarotonga to New Zealand are Te Arawa,Tainui, Matatua, Tokomaru, Kura Haupo. Last thing, Rarotonga has several name. One of them is Tumutevarovaro or 'Avaiki (Hawaiki) Tumutevarovaro for the New Zealand maori tribes who traced their genealogy from Rarotonga
I'd be very surprised if Craig had any macrons in it at all? Anyway to answer the question, yes the a is long (and the word ends in -timu here, not -tumu as in the Cooks). See [1]. We're not talking Cook Islands Māori here - this is NZ Māori. Not unusual for these two languages to differ in vowel length. And don't forget that vowel length has only been consistently marked relatively recently, so older sources like Best won't show it. And the story of the canoes as taught in the early 20th century by Best and others has been shown to be incorrect in recent years too Kahuroa 19:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh really, I'm impressed. Young afa, mean aka warriors maori shown they know, I would like to read it. What are the sources ???
- I can't quite understand what you are asking, but if its about the canoe traditions, here's somewhere to start: [2]. By the way you should sign your contributions by typing ~~~~ - when you save the page, it will then show your user name (if you have one) and the time and date - that way we know who we're talking to. Kia orana koe. Kahuroa 23:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't want to answer thinking that silence is sometimes better, but silence can also show self pretention. OK i've read the article titled The meaning of canoe traditions. Sorry to say but i'm not totally agree with. It is true that you can find some contradictions between some genealogies. Generally the differences comes from when, who, to whom and in what circumstances, they are told. And when you have answered these questions it is really easy (i'm lying, not so easy but possible) to see what are the land or political strategies behind the narration and what is the true history. On the essential, most versions are agreed. If you want to start with canoe migration study, have a look to several versions (not one or two but ten or more) of the same genealogy and compare them, thinking the context of the narration and who is the narrator. But please, stop taking as the ultime reference the encyclopedia of New Zealand. Concerning Percy Smith, he did not collected any Cook Islands genealogies he only published them. The ones published in the first JPS between 1890 and 1900 were collected by a half european/maori settler in rarotonga, Henry Nicholas in the 1880 or William Gill in the 1850. Other old geneaologies (in Maori) have never been published. You can find them in the LMS archives (SOAS library in London) or in family books (puka tupuna) or the land court archives in Rarotonga. I am sure in searching a bit, you will find the same in New Zealand and you will see that the so-called mythology can be valid historical sources. Concerning Takitumu, I persist to say that it is the original name of this vaka. Archeology confirm also the dates of the foundation of this vaka in Rarotonga and New Zealand. It is true that sometimes you can find the name Tamatea or Tamatoa for the one who brought the vaka in NZ (but this is in Percy Smith.:) Moreover you know how it is, people have generally several names. Concerning the other vaka given by Best, i have to confess that i have no more informations, but it doesn't mean that it is crap. Last thing, i do not believe too in the Great Fleet, but i think nobody do not believe in it anymore from a long time now. Ciao
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- No one suggested that E of NZ is the ultimate source. However, despite the fact that the 'myths' have fed back into local traditions over the last 100 years, they are just that, manufactured myths. Kahuroa 00:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I won't try to convince you. After all this is perhaps the case in NZ where you can't find good materials older than 100 years or Percy Smith publications???
- Sir, you have no need to convince me of anything. I think we agree on much more than we disagree on. I totally support what you say about the use of genealogy, and I also am aware of what Smith did and didn't do in the Cook Islands, and I am aware of the existence of many unpublished manuscripts both in the Cooks and in New Zealand. I also totally support going back to the older manuscripts to see what our tūpuna believed. More and more in New Zealand (where there are a great many materials available that are older than 100 years), researchers are using the techniques you suggest - re-evaluating genealogies and going back to the manuscripts. That is the very thing that pointed out the errors in the 'orthodox' traditions. As Polynesians, the challenge for us is to to be willing to listen to what that kind of research says even if it suggests that some of our most cherished ideas are in need of revision. Kia manawanui koe, kia kaha hoki koe i tērā o ngā whenua o ō tāua tūpuna. Kahuroa 04:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- No one suggested that E of NZ is the ultimate source. However, despite the fact that the 'myths' have fed back into local traditions over the last 100 years, they are just that, manufactured myths. Kahuroa 00:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
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